RE: Can we be "good" without god?

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tazzygirl -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/1/2011 9:09:13 PM)
As I said before... a beautifully written story about god and his son... written by men, translated by men, at the command of powerful men.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/2/2011 12:22:40 AM)
In my view, it is important to do the right thing and live life in a way that doesn't harm others BECAUSE there is no eternal reward. If all we have is right here, right now, shouldn't we try to make it as easy for everyone as possible? If you truly believe this is all there is for everyone, and there is no "better place" to look forward to, then your heaven is here on earth, right now. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" Yeah, I've heard that one, Tazzy, but I don't see how it answers the question. Why can't some people do good without hoping for eternal reward? And telling me that "good" is not a Universal truth, as you have been saying in the other thread, makes the answer to the question more elusive, I think. For example, the jihadist suicide bomber who blows away a bus filled with Jews in the name of Allah. Certainly not a good deed by everyone's definition but performed at least partially in expectation of eternal reward. Is this confusing only to me?

Real0ne -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/2/2011 12:22:59 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs. I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own. I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives. I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves. So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die." (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff). I suppose if you want to annex God to heaven, as some lounge in the sky, however the title has problems since God and good are after all synonymous

MissImmortalPain -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/2/2011 11:17:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs. I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own. I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives. I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves. So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die." (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff). Allow me to ask the question in its opposite form: Why do some people need the promise of salvation or the threat of damnation to motivate and guide their behavior? I have asked a lot of people this question so I am going to take a shot at answering it for you. Keep in mind though that the "answer" varies from person to person. One point of view says people what to believe there is something better because they are not happy with what is here. Some others need the fear that comes with the thought of hell. They know themselves well enough, and admit to the fact, to know they are at their depth animals. The idea of someone watching them keeps them from expressing their animal side in the way that would not be good for others. There are even a few that choose to believe there is something else(doesn't have to be heaven, hell, etc, just something else) because they have seen their own kind do such bad things that if there is nothing else they have no reason for being. And oddly somehow this inspires them to try harder in hopes of someday seeing that something else.

Politesub53 -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/2/2011 4:49:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race. This. These

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/2/2011 5:20:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race. This. These These being mostly a fallacious point, given the underpinning that exists and has existed long before any of us were born. I'm not sure if I've ever read of a society crafted upon the absence of religion, and if there were some, they probably have little to do with life today given that at least half the world believes in one God, and the rest are scattered about a dozen other deities.

xssve -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 6:12:50 AM)
You mean any human society? Most societies are organized around economics and mutual protection, not religion, religion is just an institution demanding a cut for services rendered, usually protection from unseen spirits, etc. In economic terms, it's often little more than a protection racket really, and it's the model for every other protection racket: "pay us and do what we tell you, or something bad will happen to you - we'll make sure of it". i.e., what the value of those services may or may not be, is entirely open to empirical analysis, it's utility is neither self evident nor axiomatic.

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 6:34:10 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: xssve You mean any human society? Most societies are organized around economics and mutual protection, not religion, religion is just an institution demanding a cut for services rendered, usually protection from unseen spirits, etc. In economic terms, it's often little more than a protection racket really, and it's the model for every other protection racket: "pay us and do what we tell you, or something bad will happen to you - we'll make sure of it". i.e., what the value of those services may or may not be, is entirely open to empirical analysis, it's utility is neither self evident nor axiomatic. I mean the question isn't valid. You can only ask it based upon the underpinnings of religion, some religion - pick one. By the time you reach the age where you debate such philosophical questions, you will have learned the vast bulk of all you will ever learn in life, and the concept of good, evil, morality will have already been influenced by it, as it was for your parents, their parents, generation after generation going back for thousands of years. There is no disassociated state you can occupy that has existed religion free where you can make that type of value judgement without religion having an affect on it in the first place.

Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 7:58:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: Politesub53 quote: ORIGINAL: LaTigresse quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race. This. These These being mostly a fallacious point, given the underpinning that exists and has existed long before any of us were born. I'm not sure if I've ever read of a society crafted upon the absence of religion, and if there were some, they probably have little to do with life today given that at least half the world believes in one God, and the rest are scattered about a dozen other deities. I suggest that you Google "Red China" or "The Soviet Union". There's plenty of other smaller irreligious societies to be found as well, many of which raise kids.

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 8:00:51 AM)
And I suggest you google religion within, ace. Either that or come tell the Russian folks who moved next to me a few years ago that religion didn't exist where they lived, and that coming here to escape the persecution was just a bullshit move.

Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 8:04:16 AM)
So these Russians weren't driven out of the country in order to practice their religion, then?

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 8:11:39 AM)
I'm not following your point, stranger. Moon head mentioned the Soviet Union as an example of an irreligious society, and you come back with a remark about your Russian neighbors, who apparently left because of religious prosecution. Did they leave 20 years ago? Because the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, in large part because their economy fell apart as a result of their ill advised invasion of Afghanistan. But I digress. What point were you trying to make with your reference to your Russian neighbors?

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 10:55:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet I'm not following your point, stranger. Moon head mentioned the Soviet Union as an example of an irreligious society, and you come back with a remark about your Russian neighbors, who apparently left because of religious prosecution. Did they leave 20 years ago? Because the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991, in large part because their economy fell apart as a result of their ill advised invasion of Afghanistan. But I digress. What point were you trying to make with your reference to your Russian neighbors? The Soviet Union was not an irreligious society. It was ruled by an irreligious form of government. The society had plenty of religion. Moon either confused the two or ventured over in the hay field.

Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 11:32:19 AM)
Serious attempts were made to drive religion out of the society. Or were the Russians you were living next to a few years ago still practising their religion in that society?

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 3:14:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Serious attempts were made to drive religion out of the society. Or were the Russians you were living next to a few years ago still practising their religion in that society? They moved in next to me, as in built a house in 1999. They comprised father somewhere in his 60's, mother about the same age, son who was mid-40's, son's wife, and three children ranging from about 8 to 14. There were a couple of other 20 somethings who bounced in and out. Cousins I think. The son and the children were the only one's who spoke more than a couple of words of English. Note, almost this exact configuration of family existed behind me as well, also from Russia. My uncle knew the son prior to the family relocating in my neighborhood - though neighborhood is a stretch. It was farmland backed by a national forest. I don't know when the family originally came over. I do know the reason was be able to practice religion in a free and open manner. It wasn't like we talked about it a lot, but times we did, he was pretty adamant about that fact. My uncle talked him a lot more than I did, and from him came a lot of stories from the son. Then again, I didn't hear them so how embellished or straight up they were, I can't attest.

tweakabelle -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 4:38:53 PM)
quote: You can only ask it based upon the underpinnings of religion, some religion It seems to me that asserting religion has influenced the way we approach many questions in today's world is a perfectly reasonable position to take. But to imply it's a dominant influence or the sole influence is quite a different matter. The ideas that circulate in today's world reflect a myriad of influences - going back to and even preceding the Greeks. There's an age old tradition of Western philosophy, which has grown increasingly secular. I venture a guess that many more people are influenced by Science than religion in the West nowadays. One (of many) ways of measuring this is to ask: Who do people turn to in a crisis? (People tend to act on what they really believe in during a crisis.) Most people, including most believers, prefer to consult medical doctors than faith healers or pray for a return to health when ill. Most of us view with disdain the refusal of certain sects to allow blood transfusions for their adherents. Religion is certainly in there in the mix, but it's influence is declining and has been declining since the Enlightenment. It seems far easier to overstate its influence than understate it, an error believers are particularly prone to IMHO.

StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 4:54:46 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tweakabelle quote: You can only ask it based upon the underpinnings of religion, some religion It seems to me that asserting religion has influenced the way we approach many questions in today's world is a perfectly reasonable position to take. But to imply it's a dominant influence or the sole influence is quite a different matter. The ideas that circulate in today's world reflect a myriad of influences - going back to and even preceding the Greeks. There's an age old tradition of Western philosophy, which has grown increasingly secular. I venture a guess that many more people are influenced by Science than religion in the West nowadays. One (of many) ways of measuring this is to ask: Who do people turn to in a crisis? (People tend to act on what they really believe in during a crisis.) Most people, including most believers, prefer to consult medical doctors than faith healers or pray for a return to health when ill. Most of us view with disdain the refusal of certain sects to allow blood transfusions for their adherents. Religion is certainly in there in the mix, but it's influence is declining and has been declining since the Enlightenment. It seems far easier to overstate its influence than understate it, an error believers are particularly prone to IMHO. Quit twisting what I said. Underpinnings do not = the entire fucking building. What is it with the friggin hayfields lately?

tweakabelle -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 5:02:33 PM)
Tut! Tut! Are we having a sensitive day? The first sentence of my post agreed with you. I went on to qualify that "in the mix" didn't mean dominant or sole. Then I fleshed my intended meaning in a little more out in detail. At the risk of over-simplifying, religion is one of many factors, and a relatively minor one at that, influencing the way most people think in the West today. Chill a bit and read what's there.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 6:08:47 PM)
Well, if they didn't leave "Russia" in 1991 or before, they weren't fleeing the Soviet Union, Moonhead's original example of an irreligious society. So, what irreligious society were they fleeing? quote: ORIGINAL: StrangerThan quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead Serious attempts were made to drive religion out of the society. Or were the Russians you were living next to a few years ago still practising their religion in that society? They moved in next to me, as in built a house in 1999. They comprised father somewhere in his 60's, mother about the same age, son who was mid-40's, son's wife, and three children ranging from about 8 to 14. There were a couple of other 20 somethings who bounced in and out. Cousins I think. The son and the children were the only one's who spoke more than a couple of words of English. Note, almost this exact configuration of family existed behind me as well, also from Russia. My uncle knew the son prior to the family relocating in my neighborhood - though neighborhood is a stretch. It was farmland backed by a national forest. I don't know when the family originally came over. I do know the reason was be able to practice religion in a free and open manner. It wasn't like we talked about it a lot, but times we did, he was pretty adamant about that fact. My uncle talked him a lot more than I did, and from him came a lot of stories from the son. Then again, I didn't hear them so how embellished or straight up they were, I can't attest.

Kirata -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 6:15:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Moonhead I've always found the notion that it's impossible to have any capacity for "goodness" or moral behaviour without a religious underpinning deeply offensive. All it requires is a little sympathy for the rest of the human race. Indeed. Studies have shown that human beings have an innate sense of fairness, so God is clearly not required in addition. Possibly he created us that way, if your beliefs run in that direction. But theologically, the function served by doctrines of afterlife rewards and punishments has little to do with morality. The fact that good and evil are not reliably rewarded and punished in this life imposes upon any theology of a just and good God the necessity of postulating a greater realm in which such failures are corrected, a realm in which good is finally rewarded and evil finally punished. As a prod to moral behavior, however, such doctrines are highly problematic. If history isn't convincing enough, just consider the fact that belief in a just God who will sort everything out after the fact is at least as supportive of complacency with respect to social ills as it is of action to correct them. And, too, such doctrines are conspicuously irrelevant when social action is taken. Whether the agenda is establishing some imaginary Atheist social utopia, or conquering the world for Christ, zealotry has always proven itself equally willing to slaughter hundreds of thousands, even millions, of those who do not support the Party or the Faith. In my view, neither Atheism nor Theism offers any inherent moral advantage. The only thing that has ever proven uniformly effective is our natural capacity for empathy, and that is why the first thing we always do when we're planning on killing a lot of people is to find a way to dehumanize them. K.

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