RE: Can we be "good" without god? (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/3/2011 8:43:38 PM)

quote:

Kirata

In my view, neither Atheism nor Theism offers any inherent moral advantage. The only thing that has ever proven uniformly effective is our natural capacity for empathy, and that is why the first thing we always do when we're planning on killing a lot of people is to find a way to dehumanize them.

K.[/font][/size]

Excellent post.

Would you agree that, given the history of both theistic and atheistic ideologies - when both are absolutist ideologies* - that the flaws that allow their excesses are inherent in all absolutist ideologies? While this position seems implied here:
"zealotry has always proven itself equally willing to slaughter hundreds of thousands, even millions, of those who do not support the Party or the Faith"
I would appreciate a clarification on this point.

By absolutist I mean any belief system that posits itself, and itself alone as embodying objective and/or absolute and/or supreme Truth, (a claim advanced by, for example, Catholicism and Marxism).


* It's certainly possible to conceive of non-absolutist theistic and atheistic perspectives.




Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/4/2011 4:35:37 AM)

Word.
Well put.




StrangerThan -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/4/2011 6:58:03 AM)

They migrated to the US prior to building a house beside me, sweet. As I said, my uncle knew them before I did, several years before I did. I never asked him, the son, when the family had come over. 1999 was the year I met him. According to my uncle, the son had run a body shop for several years not far from his repair shop. If you want me to hunt a specific year, I can do that. I can call my uncle and ask him, or I can drop by and see the son tomorrow if it's that important that you have the specific year, but my impression at the time was somewhere in the early to mid 80's.

Persecution of religion, any religion, is well documented in the Soviet Union. These same folks, once the house was done, planted cedars in a box around their property. Anyone who has flown over the plains in the middle of the US and Canada would recognize the shape. I figured that was the reason, that maybe his family too had lived in flat lands denuded for crops and used the trees as a windbreak. Western North Carolina is fairly mountainous though, and in fact, has the highest mountains east of the Mississippi. 

It didn't click with me that the planting of the cedars coincided with prayer meetings and gatherings at his house until I asked him about the trees one day. I mean, it's kind of odd to create that type of natural structure around property in a place dominated by forests. He said, it makes us feel safer.

Shrug.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/4/2011 7:59:10 AM)

I reread your posts and figured out what you were saying, stranger. Thanks for clarifying.




EmilyRocks -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/4/2011 10:29:21 AM)

I think its perfectly possible to be good without God or religion, but it just takes more effort because religion gives you a nice neat and tidy list of what is good and bad and the atheist must determine that for themselves.

The people who are believers but not part of an established religion are somewhere in between, as I find almost all of them have adapted some existing religion rather than invent a spiritual belief out of whole cloth.




Kirata -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 3:55:48 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmilyRocks

I think its perfectly possible to be good without God or religion, but it just takes more effort because religion gives you a nice neat and tidy list of what is good and bad and the atheist must determine that for themselves.

Some religions do, some don't. But in the final analysis, I think we always have to determine what's good and bad for ourselves. One need only turn to Leviticus, for example, to see that relying on such directives would raise serious moral questions.

K.




Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 4:22:02 AM)

Particularly given that a few of the proscriptions in Leviticus are flatly contradicted in the new testament...




HeatherMcLeather -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 4:34:27 AM)

To be fair, she did say "religion" and not "religious books". Most of the stuff in Leviticus is excluded by most modern Christian and Jewish sects.




Moonhead -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 4:51:58 AM)

True, but you do get a few of the fundamentalist Christian sects who seem quite taken with that bit about how God hates gays, sadly.




lobodomslavery -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 4:58:13 AM)

Yes we can everytime we say hello to someone we are doing good, God said even a cup of cold water will not go unrewarded. The kingdom of heaven is closed to nobody. There is no such thing as evil, just humanity struggling, imperfectly along in this imperfect unjust world
kevin




mons -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 5:03:10 AM)

If I did not have God in my life it would be so sad and yes lonely when all of
your friends leave you no one but God is there!  I have had times when the only
thing there was , was God no i could not ever even think of living or not loving him'
always

mons




Rule -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 6:16:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives. 

So you have a conscience. There are people without that organ. They NEED moral directives.




annarborsub -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 6:41:17 AM)

People paint Christianity and especially traditional Roman Catholic Catholicism in a very bad light.  Our faith does not teach hate, quite the contrary.  I am no expert and I do not speak for the Church but I think it is very clear, we are to love our neighbor as we love ourselves.  However, that love that the bible teaches does not mean we should support and encourage each other when we are doing things that are detrimental to our well being.  We love our children but we must guide and correct them when they are doing things that will hurt them emotionally and/or physically.  We should do the same for our friends.  In a loving way of course.  You wouldn't encourage your friend to become an alcoholic and neglect his/her family right?  Sometimes all it takes to shake and wake us up is a kind, loving, but TRUE word from a friend to get us back on the path of thinking of others first.  Remember how Jesus stopped the people from stoning the adulterer?  We are all in this together and need to support each other out of love and compassion.

Take me for example.  What kind of hypocrite am I espousing the virtues of Christianity/Catholicism on a site that promotes this kind of stuff?




DarkSteven -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 6:44:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: annarborsub

Take me for example.  What kind of hypocrite am I espousing the virtues of Christianity/Catholicism on a site that promotes this kind of stuff?


What we do violates Catholicism and Christianity?  hell, we're nothing compared to Torquemada.




manofyourdreams -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 6:51:19 AM)

I believe one can be " good" without God but not holy ! how do you define goodness  , and moral behavior on your own merit? it is a subject books have been written about .I am sure even the most vile among  us feel they have  some thread of  humanity ! ie... most of the mafia go to  (catholic) church on sundays,I am sure  ted bundy probbaly liked  cats ( or something ) . 


quote:

ORIGINAL: GreedyTop

I twould like to think that I DO follow the ideals set out by (whomever)

do unto others...

dont cast the first stone unless...

etc.

YEs, I was RAISED as a Christian, but I see nothing about the (alleged) teachings of the (alleged) Christ that should not apply to all humans, in a perfect world.

I watched my late Grandfather (who was a devout Episcopalian).. he was one of those who walked the walk WITHOUT feeling compelled to TALK THE WALK (if that makes sense).

much to his (I imagine) chagrin, I feel that one can embody those principles without having to subscribe to any particular faith.

I hope to god *snicker* that this made sense.. I am sleepy and off to bed..




LadyPact -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 7:12:36 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Another poster on here is discussing her personal struggle with her religious beliefs.  I am an atheist, and I really don't have anything to add to her thread, so I thought I would start my own.  I believe I am a moral and ethical person for my own reasons, not because of some mythical directives.  I think some other posters have also said the same thing about themselves.  So, why do people strive to do the right thing, if it isn't because of the hope of some "pie up in the sky, waiting for [them] when they die."  (To paraphrase Jimmy Cliff).


It is greatly unfortunate that My original has caused such strife.  I did not wish it to be so.  The fault is My own.  It is My hope that it will not happen again.

So, can a person be inherently good?  I believe that they can.  The basis in this does not have to have a foundation in God, although that happens to be convenient.  For those that do not believe in God, there are still choices to be made.  How one should live.  How one should act.  Do we go right or left?  Love or hate?

The best I can ever hope to do is wake up every morning and like the person that I see in the mirror.  If I'm doing that, no matter what My method, I figure, I'm ok.




Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 12:36:28 PM)

Not really sure where you are coming from when you mention "strife".  I had a slightly different point of view, had nothing to contribute to your thread, and started my own.  Is that a problem?
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet




It is greatly unfortunate that My original has caused such strife.  I did not wish it to be so.  The fault is My own.  It is My hope that it will not happen again.

So, can a person be inherently good?  I believe that they can.  The basis in this does not have to have a foundation in God, although that happens to be convenient.  For those that do not believe in God, there are still choices to be made.  How one should live.  How one should act.  Do we go right or left?  Love or hate?

The best I can ever hope to do is wake up every morning and like the person that I see in the mirror.  If I'm doing that, no matter what My method, I figure, I'm ok.





Iamsemisweet -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 2:49:14 PM)

Some use commas and capital letters, some don't, apparently.




wittynamehere -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/5/2011 2:52:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Can we be "good" without god?

Depends on what 'good' is defined as, but one way to answer the question would be to look back in time. Before god was invented, were people 'good'? (By whatever your definition of 'good' is.) If so, then yes, we can be good without god.




MadAxeman -> RE: Can we be "good" without god? (10/7/2011 7:17:29 AM)

I would be happy to discuss English Literature, with particular reference to the war poets, which be what my degree were in.
P Diddy is a man.
Beowulf is a work of literature.
Hope that helps.




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