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Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 2:38:33 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		Well, we've seen an example of the "new tone" standards in a recent thread:

Race and skin color, which was just locked by VAD.

I think this was perhaps a bit of an over-reaction, but it's all a judgment call, so I don't have any heartburn with it.  And, if it forces some people to more closely consider their words, it's all good to me.

But I think the subject still deserves some discussion, if we can keep the tone at somewhat of a higher level, therefore I've opened another thread.

I'd suggest, in this thread, instead of calling someone a name i.e. "racist, bigot, etc", perhaps it would be more appropriate to label their reasoning as "bigoted" or say "that logic smacks of racism".

Generally, I wouldn't attempt to restart a thread like this.  It can be seen as attempting to over-ride a moderator's judgment, but that is not my intent. Nor do I wish to focus on exactly the same thing as the other thread.

Race is perhaps the most explosive issue in our society today, and because of its sensitivity not nearly as much calm discussions and consideration goes on about it.  Which, in my opinion, is a recipe for an explosion, eventually.

So I think it's worth trying to open the conversation once again, with the caveat that we should be very careful in either taking personal offense or giving personal offense. Taking and giving personal offense does not mean that some people might not take offense at others' words and ideas.  That is the type of "offense" that is the core of a good substantive discussion.  Just that we should all attempt to keep it out of the name-calling stage.

And I wish to change the direction of the discussion a bit as well.

First, I'd prefer to discuss two different streams within this area:

1.  How does multiculturalism affect our future as a society and nation, and

2.  Should concrete legal or structural changes be considered to "atone" for past actions of groups against other groups?  I'm particularly interested in this part of the discussion as it applies to "Native Americans", and not really the entire black slavery parts of our history (although I suspect we'll go there anyway).

To start the discussion, I'd like to make two claim: 

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Do you agree or disagree with either of these claims?  Comments?

Firm

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 10/4/2011 2:44:03 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:01:05 PM   
VioletGray


Posts: 359
Joined: 10/29/2007
From: Baltimore, MD
Status: offline 		O.k. first let me give credit where credit is due. Firm, this is by far the most eloquent, rational, most intelligent thing I have ever seen you post. Well done.

Before I can answer your questions honestly however I must ask, how do you feel multiculturalism is being practiced today? Also how is it possible to address the past injustices done to Native Americans and not African slaves? I suspect that you may believe that is a quagmire in which the discussion might spin its wheels (and if so I can't say I blame you), but can you really apply many arguments to one and not the other?

< Message edited by VioletGray -- 10/4/2011 3:04:09 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:04:19 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		I will pass on Number 1, but I will comment on No. 2.  Mistreatment of Native Americans is not all that far in the past.  I posted information about the Indian Child Welfare Act of 1978 in the other thread.  Before that Act, it was not uncommon for children to be removed from their families, and placed in boarding schools or with white families.   Apparently this was considered perfectly acceptable.  In fact, I remember sitting in church on Sunday (Latter Day Saints), and hearing an address where the speaker stated that he had supposedly seen the skin of such children start to lighten after a few years with their adopted families.  This was about 1976 and no one batted an eye. 
It is true that many of the tribes create their own problems, as someone said.  The Crow tribe in Montana, for example, has quite a nice reservation, as these things go.  There was quite a lot of game land, ample water, etc, even back in the day.  The Crows were scouts for the calvary, and therefore got preferential treatment, at least to a degree.  Later, coal and other resources were found on that reservation, which should have led to prosperity.  It did not.  It led to massive corruption within the tribal council, and the vast majority of the population of the reservation continued to live in abject poverty.
Nonetheless, I think it is the height of folly and cruelty to have expected the tribes to "assimilate" into white civilization, just because that is what their conquerors wanted them to do.  The theft of their children before 1978 was an attempt to bring that about, but it failed pretty miserably.  I absolutely believe that the tribes are entitled to special treatment.  One poster on the other thread was going on about how whites should give the land back.  Not going to happen, and I am sure she knows it.  I don't believe her position is anymore ludicrous, however, than the countering arguments, which basically consisted of "just get over it."  Nevertheless, the tribes are entitled to special fishing, hunting, legal and land use rights.  A lot of people really, really, don't like that.  Trust status was just granted for land in my County for a tribe to build a casino, and you wouldn't believe the screaming and whining about "fake tribes" and "special rights."  It makes my blood boil.  My position is that the tribes are absolutely entitled to protection and special treatment., although it is pretty sad that their best hope for prosperity lies in feeding off others gambling addictions.  Still, there is a certainly ironic justice to that.
I recognize, as someone said, that almost every place on earth once belonged to someone else.  That is not a reason to minimize the wrongdoing that took place in this country, and try to compensate in some small measure. 

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 10/4/2011 3:07:36 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:18:33 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

i have mixed feelings about this.  Having "sub-cultures" within a society divides and alienates people from one another.  And yet, diversity makes society richer and more interesting.  i think the net effect of multiculturalism is positive.   What do you mean "multiculturalism as currently practiced..."?  Practiced?

2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

i agree.


pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 10/4/2011 3:19:05 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:23:55 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VioletGray


Before I can answer your questions honestly however I must ask, how do you feel multiculturalism is being practiced today? Also how is it possible to address the past injustices done to Native Americans and not African slaves? I suspect that you may believe that is a quagmire in which the discussion might spin its wheels (and if so I can't say I blame you), but can you really apply many arguments to one and not the other?



How long do we go back?

Every single civilization in the history of the planet has been conquered and its indigenous peoples displaced and subjected to, slavery, serfdom, exploitation, what have you?

4000 years from now it will have happened again, numerous times...who knows, maybe then it will be the descendants of the Inuits running things.


But as for now, its Governments insisting races be categorized and broken down on the legal side.

On the personal side, its the various subcultures themselves that tend to do it naturally.

As a race of human beings, we will likely never change the latter.

Having Governments define.... that may be another story.


But here is a question, who howls the loudest when eliminating race codes and classifications get brought up?

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:40:39 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Well, we've seen an example of the "new tone" standards in a recent thread:


It's not new here.. I've seen thinly veiled shit being slipped under the wire here since I first arrived... and that FAR exceeds the time I have been posting ... I've been a reader and member for at least 5 or 6 years. But I've see a few posts lately where it's just wacked.. And I even broke rank saturday or sunday I think but not on race, I just verbally went apeshit and called a guy for the rat he plays on the web..  but it wasn't racial or preference based just posting demeanor. And I own it after considering it... fat chance of the other party ever owning theirs But it certainly was in response to remarks where the survival rate if uttered in [proximity to me, would indeed be low.
  I think that maybe people ought to stop doing things to encourage  a negative response in the very first post. But whatever... it is what it is.

quote:

Race and skin color, which was just locked by VAD.


I coulda run a pool on that one


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:47:06 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

I'd need to know how you were defining this before I commented on it.

quote:

2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Does this come under making up for past injustices? I do support it:

quote:

Nevertheless, the tribes are entitled to special fishing, hunting, legal and land use rights. A lot of people really, really, don't like that. Trust status was just granted for land in my County for a tribe to build a casino, and you wouldn't believe the screaming and whining about "fake tribes" and "special rights." It makes my blood boil. My position is that the tribes are absolutely entitled to protection and special treatment., although it is pretty sad that their best hope for prosperity lies in feeding off others gambling addictions. Still, there is a certainly ironic justice to that.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 3:47:45 PM   
Edwynn


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It's only what's happened most recently, as presented in the latest textbooks, as brought to our narrowly focused attention and so directed scope, regarding both time and place.

Hows that?

It surprises me not at all that so many people think that slavery was invented in the southeast US, and all gone after the Civil War. Nor the belief (and it IS a belief, as evidenced here) that Euro invasion of the Americas was the invention of Euro invasion, or the practice of invasion at all. Most here lack sufficient reading of history. I don't.

Ask the Chinese or Koreans what they think about the Japanese, or Tibetans what they think about the Chinese, or Bosnians what they think about Serbians, or the Sudan about what they think of the Muslim (as practiced in that country) concept of slavery, or any of the more than 100 things as occurring in the last 50 years, and even now.

My focus is on stopping what is going on right now, sorry if not giving enough attention to whatever the anachronists are insisting upon here.

My young Bosnian-born German teacher would tell you the same, as would my Nigerian statistics teacher, I have no doubt of that.

Which is why I dispute this;

"1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society. "

Response:

Multiculturalism is 'practiced' by those who live it. The "concept" of multiculturalism is 'espoused' by those who do not live it, and that presents the problem here.


PS

My Chinese math teachers (entire seventh floor of the Education Building thus occupied) my Nigerian statistics teacher, my Korean
international finance teacher would all tell you the same.

My Romanian teacher who taught my "Intro to Computer Concepts For Those Who Made Straight A's in HS and college Fortran and Basic and Cobol, But Have Gone Severely Downhill Since" might say it differently. He in fact did.

He is "cute," (according to the ladies), tall, lanky, funny, etc. But he said to me, no flinching about it; "Avoid the Latin countries."


If you think that you could come into real world multiculturalism with the delusion that you can take your white bread version of  'racism' intact, you delude yourself greatly.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 10/4/2011 4:24:51 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 4:04:10 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
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Status: offline 		FR:

For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced:  by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.

Firm


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 4:47:31 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Nevertheless, the tribes are entitled to special fishing, hunting, legal and land use rights.  A lot of people really, really, don't like that.  Trust status was just granted for land in my County for a tribe to build a casino, and you wouldn't believe the screaming and whining about "fake tribes" and "special rights."  It makes my blood boil. 



actually that applies to all people!

however the only people who are "recognised" are the people in the white boy club, which is spelled out very clearly in the declaration of independence, articles of confederation, constitution and finally the "statutes at large" and it has never been any different.

People mistakenly bellieve that the 14th and 13th abolished slavery, no it didnt.  In fact it took chains off the blacks ankles and put everyone in bond slavery.

Either you are in the book or not.


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 5:16:38 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
For those who wish for me to define "multiculturalism" as current practiced:  by this I mean encouraging the "salad bowl" concept of a nation i.e. protecting and encouraging a minority culture within a larger culture to keep separate languages, traditions and beliefs, and that "all ways are equal" when it comes to culture.


On balance, i think it has a positive effect for this country.

pam

(in reply to FirmhandKY)
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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 5:46:04 PM   
Edwynn


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Right you are.


I don't go to the Oriental markets or the 98% South African-staffed indoor farmers market or wherever else because of the nationality of the employees. I go where the good food and herbs and tea are. Somebody is just trying to bitch about the Mexicans and not disguising it well enough, that's all.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 10/4/2011 5:49:06 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:13:27 PM   
Louve00


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY


To start the discussion, I'd like to make two claim: 

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Do you agree or disagree with either of these claims?  Comments?

Firm


I do agree that multiculturalism is detrimental to a free and open society. It promotes toleration IMO and we broaden our own scopes of understanding people (all people). In saying that though, I don't think it is tolerated now very well. I consider "us" (the people of the U.S., overall a very prejudiced society. For the most part, people are unwilling to learn and accept what is not known to them, especially people in more remote areas. They tend to stick to themselves and treat different as "stranger" and therefore not an acceptable. And that, I feel, prevents us from protecting and encouraging a minority culture. I'm not saying I think it's important though. In fact, I think it would benefit us all, especially the ones who resist the different, in ways of civility and humanity.

I don't really agree with this generation making up for past injustices, because we, living in this present time, did not commit the injustices of the past. However, if we use the example of Native Americans, when America was first born, we literally pushed the Native Americans into little reservations, that they still inhabit today. Even though this generation may not have physically taken their land, we still possess it. How do you make up for those injustices? How do you make it right for everyone? While there are solutions, I really don't think there is a good answer there, that wouldn't promote more bitterness and resentment, which would put a bigger wedge in promoting multiculturalism.

These are just my initial thoughts upon reading your thread. My thoughts may change as people air their views. But those are my comments, for now.


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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:35:54 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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Status: offline 		Native Americans are different in this country than any other group... why? Sovereign nation. Unlike any other group, as a race, they were and still are granted special considerations by the government. AFAIK they are the only group to ever have been treated as such. The only group as a race made promises by the government, had them broken, made new promises, had them broken. Whether anyone wants to admit it, recognize it or accept it... thats the crux of the difference. Its two nations within one.

As far as multiculturalism, Im all for it... to a point. As a nation, we have to have something that binds us together. I believe it should be language. I get on the bus and hear lots of languages being spoken. It doesnt bother me, nor should it bother anyone else. What does bother me is when the communication barrier cannot be crossed.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:38:26 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

I think that maybe people ought to stop doing things to encourage  a negative response in the very first post.




That is quite a statement. More for a free speech thread, "and who gets to make that call," but qft.


Back to the topic

quote:

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.

2. Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

Do you agree or disagree with either of these claims? Comments?

Firm



For the first, Firm, I don't think the melting pot needs to be a crucible. More like a good stewpot. I love diversity, and different groups with all sorts of ways of looking at the world, and living their lives in it. It needs to happen under an encompassing umbrella of shared values and common law (once called the American Dream), though, and it needs to flow organically.

On two, we come into the world with nothing, and we leave the same way. If we are anything but equal, injustice is only perpetuated, and the old resentments updated for the next generation.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:41:43 PM   
Fightdirecto


Posts: 1101
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Status: offline 		When most speak of the detrimental effects of multiculturalism, I find they are really saying, "Those people aren't acting and living like Caucasians of a British heritage."

I am of Scots and Irish ancestry, though both my Scots and Irish ancestors came to America before the American Revolution. As a child, my parents taught me Irish Gaelic, played Celtic music at home and we frequently ate foods like Irish Stew and my mom's homemade Scottish Shortbread (no, we didn’t eat haggis). I celebrated my 16th birthday with my first Guinness at a cousin's pub on a visit to County Kildare, Ireland. I still often wear a kilt as part of my day-to-day clothing. My father often said, "If you do not know where you came from, you can't know who you really are." Some Americans, however, would call that "detrimental multiculturalism" and somehow "un-American".

My ex-wife’s family is of Italian ancestry, the first members of the family coming from the Naples area shortly after the First World War. As soon as they arrived, they acclimatized quickly, and abandoned all traces of their Italian ancestry, language and customs. They even changed their names (her grandfather, born Guillermo Verdi, has his name legally changed to William Green) and converted from Roman Catholic to Methodist. My ex-wife, the third generation of her family to live in America, often complained about feeling lost, without roots, and spoke of how she was taught to be ashamed of her Italian ancestry (her mother wouldn't even make spaghetti, calling it "Wop Slop"). But her grandparents’ and her parents’ actions are what some American Caucasians of a British heritage expect Blacks, Hispanics and Asians to replicate if they want to be considered “real Americans” like American Caucasians of a British heritage.

I think I am personally stronger for retaining my heritage, and I believe people like me make the United States stronger - for we are not as obsessed as some wanting everybody who is an American citizen to be cut from the same cookie-cutter.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:43:05 PM   
FatDomDaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Native Americans are different in this country than any other group... why? Sovereign nation. Unlike any other group, as a race, they were and still are granted special considerations by the government. AFAIK they are the only group to ever have been treated as such. The only group as a race made promises by the government, had them broken, made new promises, had them broken. Whether anyone wants to admit it, recognize it or accept it... thats the crux of the difference. Its two nations within one.

As far as multiculturalism, Im all for it... to a point. As a nation, we have to have something that binds us together. I believe it should be language. I get on the bus and hear lots of languages being spoken. It doesnt bother me, nor should it bother anyone else. What does bother me is when the communication barrier cannot be crossed.


That is hardly unique to the United States Tazzy, it has happened throughout history and is happening now. It's not even unique among Indian Nations, Incas, Myans, Aztecs, Iroquois... did much to the same to nations within their border


< Message edited by FatDomDaddy -- 10/4/2011 8:56:43 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:46:16 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I never said it was unique to the US.

I said it was unique IN the US.

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:47:32 PM   
kdsub


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quote:

How does multiculturalism affect our future as a society and nation


Here in the US anyway multiculturalism is nothing new and we can see throughout history how many large migrations of peoples have affected our country. I see no reason why this should change... We are always stronger and more diverse after each migration...after a period of accommodation new groups are accepted and slowly merge through new generations into what we call the American.


Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 10/4/2011 8:50:51 PM >

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RE: Race, Ethnicity, Language and Guilt - Take II - 10/4/2011 8:56:27 PM   
SpanishMatMaster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1. Multiculturalism as currently practiced and espoused by many is both a dead-end, and overall is detrimental to a free and open society.
2.  Attempts to "make up for" past injustices is antithetical to a society based on the worth of an individual and personal responsibility.

I also think that the thread should continue, I also agree to change the direction (as I was helped already with the first - I will use "African"), and the other thread degraded in style but also in content, centering in American Indians when this had nothing to do with the OP. So I am pretty ok on the moderators closing it and you opening another one with a different approach. Actually I feel gratitude. Thank you.

1 is in my opinion no claim at all. How many is "many"? What exactly do you mean? Maybe you can given an example of this multi-culturalism you are speaking about. UPDATE: I was not the only one with this problem. Now you gave an example, supporting cultural minorities to keep their cultural characteristics separate. Then I agree with your claim if you are speaking about legal support. If you are speaking about private encouraging, then I disagree - many of these characteristics make the group richer, and this is good. However, "many", not all. Some characteristics must be discouraged, both by law and privately - those which conflict with the values of humanism: individual freedom, human rights, democracy.

Agree with 2.

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