RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion



Message


farglebargle -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 5:53:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
There are no accidents when YOU have to aim and squeeze a trigger.

If you're unsure of your backstop, don't take the shot. What's that, like the 3rd rule of gun safety?


Nice try. But that doesn't apply in real-world situations, especially when the use of such a weapon is called for. The riot gun fires non-lethal ammunition at an arc. Period. There is no "backstop" and no way to guarantee 100% what it's going to hit. The majority of the time, there's no issue. Occasionally, however, accidents can happen, especially when the shooter is surrounded by people pelting him with bottles and rocks and whatever else they can.



So, you're saying all this "Special Training" they're spending our tax dollars on is horseshit... And why do you talk of the shooter in this instance as being pelted with bottles and rocks? Are you intentionally trying to muddle the issue of peaceful, unarmed demonstrators getting assaulted by well armed and armored cops?

The only accident was giving a nitwit a gun in the first place...




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 5:54:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
OK, as for My assumption of where the shot came from.


At least you admit it's an assumption and that you're essentially talking out of your ass.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
The line of officers was 12 feet away. Either someone was firing nonlethal rounds thru and over his partners (There was no second line) or someone took a shot at an acute angle and wasn't covering his sector. (stupid) or an officer that that was covering his sector fired from close range and MISSED THE GROUND.


The video (as we've said before) doesn't show everything. It shows ONE angle for ONE brief moment in time. How long has that barricade been there? Don't know, video doesn't show it being set up. Where else could the round have come from? Anywhere, if the protesters were too close to that barricade, they could have called upon someone else to fire it for them. As to the rest of your sector covering, missing the ground assumptions. They are just that. You don't know one page of the police tactics handbook so you have no idea how they work in situations like this. And it's hard to miss the ground, unless there is something between the round and the ground. Then it becomes quite easy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Occam's Razor. He either aimed high deliberately or can't hit the side of a barn.


Naming your assumption doesn't make it any less of one.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
I looked at the video again. The flashbang went off about a foot from an injured civilian. I ask again because you evaded the first time. Is it policy to toss a flashbang on top of an injured civilian?


And again I answer the same as I did before -- they didn't. You just admitted they didn't, so why keep asking the question? You said (I'll quote it again for you):

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
The flashbang went off about a foot from an injured civilian.


That tells me it wasn't thrown "on top of" the injured civilian, but near him. And yes, as that is where the crowd was, that's where the flashbang goes. Again -- not rocket science.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
As for the last question, you didn't answer it at all. you just evaded it totally. Most every officer knows who the few bad ones are that ruin the reputation of the whole force but they cover for them. Why?


Actually I did answer it. You didn't read it. I'll re-paste my answer from the other reply so you can see it better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
They don't. But as this *is* America, the officer in question is entitled the same rights as any citizen of this country -- especially being innocent until proven guilty of a crime. Apparently, you don't see it that way. And it's people like you who make me glad that we have the rights we do, because you seem so intent on denying those rights to the very people we call on when we need help.





DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 5:57:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arienos
The operative words are a conflict existed between two opposing forces, casualties are inevitable, had I been a member of that police department and on that assigned duty the minute I was confronted I would have assumed a defensive posture and with extreme prejudice and overwhelming force naturalized the threat against my life. If a civil demonstration becomes less the peaceful in any manner it becomes a rioting mob endangering the life safety and security of every citized.


Exactly. We get from bottles and rocks to molotovs and gunfire pretty easily. I can post a plethora of THOSE videos, but anyone who watched the news of the LA riots already knows this to be true.

Hell, in Dallas we had a PARADE....to CELEBRATE the Cowboys' victory in the Superbowl and THAT became a riot in seconds. People who were caught unaware were running down back alleys to escape the carnage.




Moonhead -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 5:59:18 AM)

Sadly, the ability to throw one's weight about with impunity appears to be one of the big recruiting draws for a few police departments.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:01:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You held me to the video. Im gonna hold you to the video. There were no Guy Fawke masks in the vid nor were theyre paint bottles and rocks being thrown.


Nice try, but that comment wasn't directed at you in reference to the video. I was talking to someone else. And the cops have already stated what they were being pelted with. When that happens, the tear gas is used. As for the masks, watch the news for 5 minutes. I've seen tons. Masks, bandanas, other masks. It's quite common.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:03:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
So, you're saying all this "Special Training" they're spending our tax dollars on is horseshit... And why do you talk of the shooter in this instance as being pelted with bottles and rocks? Are you intentionally trying to muddle the issue of peaceful, unarmed demonstrators getting assaulted by well armed and armored cops?


Not at all. I'm saying it's impossible to train for every eventuality in every possibly conflict. There is no muddling going on. We don't see the rocks in this video, but we don't see the shooter either. The police said they tried to disperse the crowds peacefully and then the bottles and rocks and paint came. THEN the tear gas was used. Paint, rocks and bottles doesn't sound like peaceful protests to me.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:04:32 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
Sadly, the ability to throw one's weight about with impunity appears to be one of the big recruiting draws for a few police departments.


And Monday morning quarterbacking and pissing and moaning apparently have no pre-requisites.




mnottertail -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:10:17 AM)

And the assumptions and quarterbacking from the defenders of the travesty are no greater informed.




Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:10:35 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

Actually I did answer it. You didn't read it. I'll re-paste my answer from the other reply so you can see it better.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
They don't. But as this *is* America, the officer in question is entitled the same rights as any citizen of this country -- especially being innocent until proven guilty of a crime. Apparently, you don't see it that way. And it's people like you who make me glad that we have the rights we do, because you seem so intent on denying those rights to the very people we call on when we need help.




That's not an answer, that's ACLU inspired legalese.

Why do the police protect those who bring dishonor to their profession?
I'm not talking about the ones who are accused. I'm talking about turning off dash cams, destroying evidence, intimidating witnesses and lying to protect those who bring dishonor to an honorable profession. Please don't try to say that doesn't happen. It's called 'professional courtesy'.

Again. You ASSUMED that a man who put his life on the line in the sandbox is a "dirtbag" and sit there and protect those who put him in the hospital for no other reason than they have a badge.

In your mind, there is NO way that an officer acted unprofessionally.





Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:14:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
So, you're saying all this "Special Training" they're spending our tax dollars on is horseshit... And why do you talk of the shooter in this instance as being pelted with bottles and rocks? Are you intentionally trying to muddle the issue of peaceful, unarmed demonstrators getting assaulted by well armed and armored cops?


Not at all. I'm saying it's impossible to train for every eventuality in every possibly conflict. There is no muddling going on. We don't see the rocks in this video, but we don't see the shooter either. The police said they tried to disperse the crowds peacefully and then the bottles and rocks and paint came. THEN the tear gas was used. Paint, rocks and bottles doesn't sound like peaceful protests to me.


There are no rocks and bottles in the vid so mayyybe they were telling the truth about that. Benefit of a doubt. They also said they didn't use flashbangs which is a lie. I counted 8. If you had a suspect in questioning and caught him in a bald faced lie like that, what do you do now? Give him the benefit of a doubt? No, you hammer his ass with questions and rightly so.
You said police have the same constitutional rights as citizens and you are totally correct. The SAME protection. Not MORE.




Arienos -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:26:07 AM)

quote:

Again. You ASSUMED that a man who put his life on the line in the sandbox is a "dirtbag" and sit there and protect those who put him in the hospital for no other reason than they have a badge.



When the lines of conflict are drawn, weapons brought to bear there is only the quick and dead, should this jarhead die it is of no greater significance then if a police officer died, the demonstrators sought to provoke and attacked knowing full well their efforts would be contained, at that point they determined rioting was their best course of action even though they knew there would be casualties. I as a citizen expect the police to use every tool at their disposal to insure my safety and applaud their recent effort.




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:26:18 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail
And the assumptions and quarterbacking from the defenders of the travesty are no greater informed.


True, but at least the defenders are willing to wait until they are better informed to condemn someone over something that could easily have been an accident. The other sides wants to send the guy to the electric chair and disband the police for the "travesty" without a shred of evidence.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:29:22 AM)

quote:

The police were doing their job, the job we pay them to do using standard operating procedures and I can assure you the United States Marine Corps has not endorsed the demonstrators nor has it offered support. Neither has the retired Marine Corps Officers Association or the Marine Corps League.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/news_detail.php?idx=123

No support?




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:32:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
That's not an answer, that's ACLU inspired legalese.


No no. It's an answer. It's just not the answer you want to hear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Why do the police protect those who bring dishonor to their profession?
I'm not talking about the ones who are accused. I'm talking about turning off dash cams, destroying evidence, intimidating witnesses and lying to protect those who bring dishonor to an honorable profession. Please don't try to say that doesn't happen. It's called 'professional courtesy'.


Again, they don't protect them. We had a "dash cam turning" incident in my city. The cop who was assaulting the suspect was fired and I believe the camera turner was as well, or at least damned close to it. We've had police here fire their gun in the back of a squad car of a "buddy" just taking them home and guess what. Fired. We had a cop caught drunk-asleep at a red light. Guess what. Fired. Sounds to me like your assertion of some mystical "thin blue line" is becoming a myth. When comes here step out of line, the first one in line to crawl up their ass (on the 6 o'clock news no less) is the chief of police. And he's got a lot of friends along for the ass-crawling expedition as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Again. You ASSUMED that a man who put his life on the line in the sandbox is a "dirtbag" and sit there and protect those who put him in the hospital for no other reason than they have a badge.


I assumed no such thing. However, he was at a protest that had apparently turned violent. If he's still there when the gas starts flying, that means he refused lawful police orders, a crime in itself. Sounds to me like he wouldn't have been hit if he hadn't been there to begin with. Even Mr. Miyagi says "Best way to block punch....no be there."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
In your mind, there is NO way that an officer acted unprofessionally.


Another incorrect assumption. I admit there is a possibility. However, unlike you and your assumptions, I'm willing to wait and see what a jury says. I wasn't there, I only saw the same clip you did. So yes, with no other evidence to the contrary, I'm more apt to take the officers' words for what occurred than people who were trying to be lawfully, peacefully dispersed and then refused.




Moonhead -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:36:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
True, but at least the defenders are willing to wait until they are better informed to condemn someone over something that could easily have been an accident. The other sides wants to send the guy to the electric chair and disband the police for the "travesty" without a shred of evidence.

Hyperbolic, much?
But go ahead and find a few posters in this thread who've been saying that the Police should be disbanded and the officer who couldn't shoot straight (or had practicised using tear gas cannisters as mortar rounds) should be electrocuted, while we're complaining about a lack of evidence...




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:38:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
There are no rocks and bottles in the vid so mayyybe they were telling the truth about that. Benefit of a doubt. They also said they didn't use flashbangs which is a lie. I counted 8. If you had a suspect in questioning and caught him in a bald faced lie like that, what do you do now? Give him the benefit of a doubt? No, you hammer his ass with questions and rightly so.


So far, the only people I've seen saying claiming the cops claim no use of flashbangs is you and others on this board. If they did indeed claim that, it sounds like their public information officer is a retard, since flashbangs could clearly be seen in the majority of the media reports I've seen. It sounds more plausible, though, that "someone's sister's, cousin's, brother's best friend, tweeted" that the cops said they didn't, and people on this board took that as gospel.

Again, if there was indeed an official statement to the contrary on the use of flashbangs, I'd say the public information officer needs to be reassigned. But it's more likely that no such official statement exists. Because to be quite honest, the statements I *have* seen were from the Oakland PD saying their crowd control efforts -- to include flashbangs and tear gas -- were in response to being hit with bottles, rocks and paint.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
You said police have the same constitutional rights as citizens and you are totally correct. The SAME protection. Not MORE.


Exactly. So far, you and others are trying to deny that same protection. I'm simply saying we should probably wait until all the facts come out before we send the cop to the chair and disband the force. Fair enough?




DarqueMirror -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:40:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The police were doing their job, the job we pay them to do using standard operating procedures and I can assure you the United States Marine Corps has not endorsed the demonstrators nor has it offered support. Neither has the retired Marine Corps Officers Association or the Marine Corps League.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/news_detail.php?idx=123

No support?


Selective reading much? Explain how the group whose link you posted is listed in his quote. He never said "no support." He listed three organizations, including the United States Marine Corps, and said THEY did not support the actions. I don't see anywhere where he mentioned "veterans for peace."




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:53:19 AM)

~FR

The Mayor is stating she didnt make this call.

quote:

Oakland -- Oakland Mayor Jean Quan, who is being criticized from all sides for a police sweep of the Occupy Oakland encampment, said Wednesday that she was not involved in the planning and did not even know when the action was going to take place.

The decision to raid the camp outside City Hall was made by City Administrator Deanna Santana on Oct. 19 with consultation from interim Police Chief Howard Jordan after campers repeatedly blocked paramedics and police from entering the camp despite reports of violence and injuries.



She was in Washington at the time.

quote:

The mayor said "I don't know everything" when asked by reporters if she was satisfied with how police conducted the sweep. She said she spent Wednesday meeting with community groups.

She also defended "99 percent" of police officers "who took a lot of abuse" and who "have really been trying to re-establish that connection with the community." But she said she asked Jordan to investigate reports of excessive force and wants a community police review board to look into the police actions.


I agree with her assessment of the "99%"

quote:

Seventeen law enforcement agencies and hundreds of officers cleared out a squatter city at City Hall's main plaza in the predawn hours. Santana said campers' unwillingness to address reports of violence, sexual assault, defecation and open flames prompted the sweep.


How big was this encampment at 3 am that it required so many to come make them leave?

quote:

Even though the morning raid involved no reported injuries, the evening was different. Protesters gathered to retake the plaza but were blocked by police. Protesters hurled paint, bottles, rocks and chemicals at officers, who responded with tear gas.

On Wednesday, protesters showed wounds that seemed to indicate police use of nonlethal projectiles, like rubber bullets and bean bags.

Santana said she and Jordan decided on the 3 a.m. Tuesday morning time because that's when they anticipated the fewest campers.

"We wanted the minimum impact," Santana said in an interview.

Quan, however, said she did not know that Santana and Jordan had planned the raid for Tuesday morning and, in fact, "I didn't think it was going to be last night."



Its her city but she dose not know what was being planned?

quote:

On Wednesday, De La Fuente said of overnight camping in the plaza, "the mayor should have put a stop from the beginning" and forced a police action that would have been less severe had it occurred earlier.

Among Quan's supporters, there is palpable sense of anger given her long activist history. Dan Siegel, Quan's unpaid legal adviser, became friends with her and her husband in 1969, when all three were fighting to create an ethnic studies program at UC Berkeley. Students boycotted classes for weeks.


So we now come to the political grandstanding. Typical. But the Mayor was part of her own protest not too long ago against the Police there.

quote:

Then and now

"I oppose the takeover of the plaza" by police, said Siegel, who took part in Tuesday night's protest. He said he may resign because of the disagreement.

When Quan was running for mayor, she took part in a July 2010 protest regarding the killing of Oscar Grant, an unarmed passenger, by a BART officer. Quan locked arms with fellow Councilwoman Rebecca Kaplan and others near City Hall to form a barrier between police and people protesting the verdict.

Whether Quan and Kaplan acted as peacemakers or obstructers of police is contested. But it's a scene Occupy Oakland supporters haven't forgotten.


And the real crux of the "attitude" of the mayor now....

quote:

At that demonstration, "she was in the front line between cops and protesters," said Emiliano Huet-Vaughn, 28, a UC Berkeley doctoral candidate in economics who voted for Quan. "It makes such a difference being in the seat of power. Now she's dispatching cops to beat people up. ... She's turned on the people."


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2011/10/26/BAMD1LMMA0.DTL#ixzz1c5GCRzWd

She fucked up. The city fucked up. 17 agencies???? 100's of cops???? and they couldnt control the crowd?

quote:

OAKLAND -- Oakland Mayor Jean Quan shifted into damage control Thursday, asking hospitalized protester Scott Olsen and other Occupy Oakland demonstrators to cooperate with police investigating Olsen's head injury.

Quan visited Olsen, a former Marine and Iraq War veteran, on Thursday morning at Highland Hospital. She shook his hand, and apologized for what happened to him. She also encouraged him and fellow demonstrators to speak with police, a hospital spokesman said. Olsen was knocked down -- apparently by a tear-gas canister or other police projectile -- Tuesday night as authorities tried to keep protesters away from Frank H. Ogawa Plaza, in front of Oakland City Hall.

The protest group had been dislodged from their tents on the plaza by police earlier in the day.

Oakland police have promised a thorough investigation of the incident, which left Olsen with a brain injury that has impeded his speech. Alameda County prosecutors and federal investigators also planned to look into the violent clash.

The city has tried this week to recover from the confrontation, which attracted an avalanche of criticism from pundits, politicians and protesters. Television host Keith Olbermann called for Quan's resignation, and White House press secretary Jay Carney called on U.S. cities to preserve "a long and noble tradition in the United States of free expression and free speech."


Apologies wont take away the brain damage this man has suffered. Political finger-pointing wont heal these scars of many who were injured. They are trying to play "damage control". I dont think there is any way to minimize the damage this one night has caused. People have been calling for violence to get rid of the protesters from the start. Well, they had their violence. Now they have their investigations... and they now have the Feds looking into it as well. And most know the outcome will come to little too late.

I dont care if the officer who shot the canister meant to hit Scott or not. Simple fact is, he got hurt, in what was supposed to be a peaceful removal of protesters.... in a city that promised not to use items such as rubber bullets, they were found all over the place.

Amazing how everyone wants OWS to "follow the rules" when no one else does.... and thats sorta the point.




tazzygirl -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 6:57:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The police were doing their job, the job we pay them to do using standard operating procedures and I can assure you the United States Marine Corps has not endorsed the demonstrators nor has it offered support. Neither has the retired Marine Corps Officers Association or the Marine Corps League.


http://www.veteransforpeace.org/news_detail.php?idx=123

No support?


Selective reading much? Explain how the group whose link you posted is listed in his quote. He never said "no support." He listed three organizations, including the United States Marine Corps, and said THEY did not support the actions. I don't see anywhere where he mentioned "veterans for peace."




Nope. I merely forgot to include the last line of his...

quote:

Retired and separated (Discharged) marines are a formidable force in numbers and their voice will be heard in the ballot box in a disciplined orderly peaceful manner.


Their voices are being heard in places other than the ballot box. [;)]




Hillwilliam -> RE: USMC joins #OWS after OPD takes a headshot at Marine... (10/28/2011 7:01:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
That's not an answer, that's ACLU inspired legalese.


No no. It's an answer. It's just not the answer you want to hear.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Why do the police protect those who bring dishonor to their profession?
I'm not talking about the ones who are accused. I'm talking about turning off dash cams, destroying evidence, intimidating witnesses and lying to protect those who bring dishonor to an honorable profession. Please don't try to say that doesn't happen. It's called 'professional courtesy'.


Again, they don't protect them. We had a "dash cam turning" incident in my city. The cop who was assaulting the suspect was fired and I believe the camera turner was as well, or at least damned close to it. We've had police here fire their gun in the back of a squad car of a "buddy" just taking them home and guess what. Fired. We had a cop caught drunk-asleep at a red light. Guess what. Fired. Sounds to me like your assertion of some mystical "thin blue line" is becoming a myth. When comes here step out of line, the first one in line to crawl up their ass (on the 6 o'clock news no less) is the chief of police. And he's got a lot of friends along for the ass-crawling expedition as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
Again. You ASSUMED that a man who put his life on the line in the sandbox is a "dirtbag" and sit there and protect those who put him in the hospital for no other reason than they have a badge.


I assumed no such thing. However, he was at a protest that had apparently turned violent. If he's still there when the gas starts flying, that means he refused lawful police orders, a crime in itself. Sounds to me like he wouldn't have been hit if he hadn't been there to begin with. Even Mr. Miyagi says "Best way to block punch....no be there."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam
In your mind, there is NO way that an officer acted unprofessionally.


Another incorrect assumption. I admit there is a possibility. However, unlike you and your assumptions, I'm willing to wait and see what a jury says. I wasn't there, I only saw the same clip you did. So yes, with no other evidence to the contrary, I'm more apt to take the officers' words for what occurred than people who were trying to be lawfully, peacefully dispersed and then refused.


We had a dash cam incident here. The sheriff flipped his car on a bridge at 2AM on a sunday morning. Would you test a normal person for DUI? Dash cam off and not even a citation for failure to maintain. The trooper was suspended for 2 whole days.
Sheriff 2 counties over indicted in a cockfighting ring. Evidence 'disappeared'. Nothing done.
Google "Miami River Cops" sometime. There were dozens involved in a drug/murder gang. How did it get that big without being ignored until it was too late?
Officer 2 towns over threatens people with a weapon when he's drunk. Charges dropped for lack of prosecution. Witnesses wouldn't come forward (I wonder why?).

You as much as called that marine a "dirtbag" in an earlier post and you have done nothing but defend the actions of the police even to the point of claiming that a cannister fired in an arc must have hit him in the head hard enough to fracture a skull but there is NO WAY he was aimed at.

The officers deserve "The benefit of a doubt" but that marine doesn't?




Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>

Valid CSS!




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy
0.046875