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Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:06:01 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline 		Please take the time to read Ted Rall's column at the link. I have some profound philosophical differences with him, but he's smart, straightforward, and funny. Sometimes, he is also dead on right. I think this is one of those times, whether I agree with his goals or not.

The Occupier�s Choice: Violence or Failure


quote:

The Occupy movement can wind up in one of two ways:

Failure.

Or success, partly via the occasional use of violence and/or the credible threat of violence that results from those sporadic outbursts.


As Jerry Rubin supposedly said, "a movement that isn't willing to take casualties, isn't worth shit."

Is Rall right? Do the Occupiers need to recognize violence, and the credible threat of violence, as legitimate tools in the box?

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:13:45 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Its my understanding they wish to follow along the lines of the civil rights movement. As much peaceful disobedience as that had, there was still violence.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:25:25 PM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		So is that a "yes," Tazzy?

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:27:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		It will escalate to that point, yes.... or they will go home.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:37:55 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

It will escalate to that point, yes.... or they will go home.



They don't have to go home to fail, Tazzy. If they bend over, and get a nice grip on their ankles, they can freeze out there all winter, while taking it the same way the anti-war protesters did in '06

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 8:40:39 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		What I am seeing at this point is that the violence is not stemming from OWS, but from Black Bloc... who have their own agenda.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 9:03:46 PM   
Owner59


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As Jerry Rubin supposedly said, "a movement that isn't willing to take casualties, isn't worth shit."


Is this why you Ts brought guns to your rallies?


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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 9:59:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Guns are great.

T^T

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 10:10:23 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59


quote:

As Jerry Rubin supposedly said, "a movement that isn't willing to take casualties, isn't worth shit."


Is this why you Ts brought guns to your rallies?




What do you mean by, "you," Owner59? Is your worldview really that tiny, and your comprehension really that low?

As for openly carried weapons at Tea Party rallies, they were hardly needed. Just the sight of the Lazyboy class of working America, taking to the streets in stupid hats, sent the message, loud and clear.


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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 10:32:45 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		You`re a T. Ie., phony loser republican.

And the OWSs have shown quite a bit of resolve,character and backbone.


How many of you Ts would be willing to be arrested for your cause(the distruction of the middle-class and the corporate take-over of America)?


Zero.




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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/4/2011 10:47:42 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

How many of you Ts would be willing to be arrested for your cause(the distruction of the middle-class and the corporate take-over of America)?




The constant strawman attack is a good mark of someone who is terrified of real discussion.



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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 12:04:07 AM   
SpanishMatMaster


Posts: 967
Joined: 9/28/2011
Status: offline 		I think that the new revolutions should use non violent means as much as possible. You can go a very long road with that. Egyptians could get rid of their dictator without using violence. Tunisians too.

The people cannot be ignored, providing they are enough. They get the control on the military, prevent violen repression, and finally take the power. You only need enough people, enough time. You do not need violence. In the USA, for example, any President would surrender before he ordered to nuke American cities to restore the order (compare with Lybia). And many policemen would simply deny any command to shoot at unarmed people.

"Take casualties" is not the same a "provoking casualites". You may be able to sacrifice (see Ghandi) but not to be violent yourself.

Violence is a shortcut. And that means that you can win "too soon", that is, when you are still a minority. The result may be a revolution of a minority, and this is very dangerous and what happened in Russia, Iran and many other countries. At the end you have a minoritary party naming themselves "majority" (I am not imaging the "99% People's Democratic Party" :D ) and establishing a party dictatorship.

I prefer the Tunisian model as the Russian or French one. Honestly. Wait until they are a solid majority. Show your power, in peaceful ways. Demand from the politicians, give them a chance. And when you have the huge majority of the people behing a concrete target and with clear lead - revolt. Simply enter the Congress, the Senate, the White House. Nobody will shoot at you if you are one million people. Not in the USA.

< Message edited by SpanishMatMaster -- 11/5/2011 12:09:55 AM >

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 1:12:44 AM   
HannahLynn


Posts: 687
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From: where its fucking at.
Status: offline 		violence is always in the cards, that is the whole fucking point of stressing that they are non-violent. by emphasizing that they will not initiate the violence, they are implying a very important "yet".

americans, for all their supposed love of liberty, are fucking terrified at the thought of disorder. that's the reason for the very visceral reaction of most anti ows people, it isn't that they are demanding anything wrong or unfair, its that they aren't following the fucking rules, they aren't doing what they are told. the idea of people ignoring the rules in the name of doing right is anathema to modern americans. hell just look at any discussion on here about a kink that is borderline legal or worse and you get the same fucking reaction from most of the yanks on here - "but its illegal, you could get in trouble"

the ows folks understand this, so they are dealing out the fucking chaos in controlled doses, so far they are just refusing to disperse, and look at the reaction they are getting. for now they have the moral high ground, and are using it to garner support. but the threat of violence is always there in the background, for now they are doing well without it, but then again the ows isn't really a revolutionary group, think of them as john the baptist, jesus will be along in a bit and then we'll really start having fun.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 1:57:01 AM   
DeviantlyD


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Status: offline 		If I hadn't seen who the author was for post #13, I'd swear it was termyn8or.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 2:21:45 AM   
HannahLynn


Posts: 687
Joined: 10/16/2011
From: where its fucking at.
Status: offline 		yea well that doesn't fucking surprise me.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 7:15:47 AM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		First let’s define terms. Vandalism, theft and destruction of property are not violence. Inanimate objects do not suffer. Violence can only be inflicted upon living beings. Breaking a window may or may not be morally justified, but it is never violence. Further, violent self-defense is not the same as violence. Until now the violence at the Occupations has all been initiated by the police. When policemen fire rubber bullets, bean bags, tear gas and pepper spray at unarmed, peaceful protesters, their victims have every right to defend themselves—to run away, to avoid arrest and yes, to strike back.

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 7:31:05 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynn

violence is always in the cards, that is the whole fucking point of stressing that they are non-violent. by emphasizing that they will not initiate the violence, they are implying a very important "yet".

americans, for all their supposed love of liberty, are fucking terrified at the thought of disorder. that's the reason for the very visceral reaction of most anti ows people, it isn't that they are demanding anything wrong or unfair, its that they aren't following the fucking rules, they aren't doing what they are told. the idea of people ignoring the rules in the name of doing right is anathema to modern americans. hell just look at any discussion on here about a kink that is borderline legal or worse and you get the same fucking reaction from most of the yanks on here - "but its illegal, you could get in trouble"

the ows folks understand this, so they are dealing out the fucking chaos in controlled doses, so far they are just refusing to disperse, and look at the reaction they are getting. for now they have the moral high ground, and are using it to garner support. but the threat of violence is always there in the background, for now they are doing well without it, but then again the ows isn't really a revolutionary group, think of them as john the baptist, jesus will be along in a bit and then we'll really start having fun.





QFT and seconded


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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 8:06:56 AM   
Sanity


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They are violence by proxy, give these punks a little more maturity and enough power and there will be a civil war, blood flowing through the streets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

First let’s define terms. Vandalism, theft and destruction of property are not violence. Inanimate objects do not suffer. Violence can only be inflicted upon living beings. Breaking a window may or may not be morally justified, but it is never violence. Further, violent self-defense is not the same as violence. Until now the violence at the Occupations has all been initiated by the police. When policemen fire rubber bullets, bean bags, tear gas and pepper spray at unarmed, peaceful protesters, their victims have every right to defend themselves—to run away, to avoid arrest and yes, to strike back.


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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 8:12:53 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Many “Occupy Wall Street” protesters arrested in New York City reside in more luxurious homes than some of their rhetoric might suggest, a Daily Caller investigation has found.

For each of the 984 Occupy Wall Street protesters arrested in New York City between September 18 and October 15, police collected and filed an information sheet recording the arrestee’s name, age, sex, criminal charge, home address and — in most cases — race. The Daily Caller has obtained all of this information from a source in the New York City government.

Among addresses for which information is available, single-family homes listed on those police intake forms have a median value of $305,000 — a far higher number than the $185,400 median value of owner-occupied housing units in the United States.

Some of the homes where “Occupy” arrestees reside, viewed through Google Maps and the Multiple Listing Service real estate database, are the definition of opulence.

Using county assessors and online resources such as Zillow.com, TheDC estimated property values and rents for 87 percent of the homes and 59 percent of the apartments listed in the arrest records.

Even in the nation’s currently depressed housing market, at least 95 of the protesters’ residences are worth approximately $500,000 or more



Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/11/02/nyc-arrest-records-many-occupy-wall-street-protesters-live-in-luxury/#ixzz1cqCvNL9c

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RE: Making the case, FOR violence in OWS - 11/5/2011 11:31:11 AM   
Termyn8or


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"Even in the nation’s currently depressed housing market, at least 95 of the protesters’ residences are worth approximately $500,000 or more "

I find that difficult to believe. Although I did say many were protesting not being able to afford a fancy car, I did not imply that they were well to do. There are several reasons that could explain the figures derived. First of all if many of them are recent grads they may be living with their Parents. Those Parents I guess refused to mortgage the house for tuition.

Despite the fact that land up there is overpriced, a half a million dollar mansion is only such for two or three people. If twelve people live there it's not quite the lap of luxury.

"If I hadn't seen who the author was for post #13, I'd swear it was termyn8or."

It's not hard to tell, I capitalise, she does not. LOL.

She said "Americans", I'd say more US citizens. I see it though, you can't fight city hall, they just made it a crime to _____, that might be illegal, shit like this. People are soft, afraid of consequences and deathly afraid of the smallest injury here, even an emotional injury. It is ridiculous, and I am surprised that OWS is happening at all. Where were these people when my people were trying to get people. You think I'm radical now, shit, we planned on marching on the capitol over twenty years ago. No shit. Just couldn't get enough people because things weren't bad enough yet.

And they still aren't. Yet is not here yet. Not yet. It will be. People are out in the streets because they got bad credit, that they can't live as well as they would like. Because they made a mistake having an iota of faith in the economy. They feel like they should have taken that money they wasted on books and bought guns. They were right, and they will know it when they are hungry.

That is next. Has this movement produced one positive change in fiscal policy of the government or any financial institution ? NO. We are going down the tubes just like before. People WILL be hungry. Canada is likely to have an illegal immigration problem, and ours will solve itself. The money is all fake. Mexico's money is probably better.

Revolutions are fought in the winter. People freeze to death. But as one of the framers stated; people will suffer as long as they can. They want to avoid the bloodshed. This is the actual power of the PTB, and powers that have been have found out the hard way just where the real power is once they went too far.

But people are not ready. Things are still too good. We need soup lines, bread lines and all that. People have to stand in line out in the cold to get a loaf of bread and can't affoed a new coat. From riches to rags.

THEN, and only then will people be really fucking ready to kick some goddamn politician/banker/whateverelse ass.

T^T

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