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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 10:26:18 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		Sinergy, no big deal, but you don't have the training of a psychiatrist exactly right. They go to college for 4 years, medical school for 4 years after which they are M.D.'s. Then 1 year of intership followed by 3 years training in the specialty of psychiatry. Many do another 2 year fellowship in a specialized field of psychiatry such as geriatric or child psychiatry.

General medical practice physicians, PA's and nurse practitioners may prescribe drugs for emotional problems, but most refer disorders other than anxiety or mild depression to a psychiatrist.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 6:03:54 AM   
sharainks


Posts: 499
Joined: 12/13/2004
Status: offline 		Let me describe excessive.  Lets say you suspect someone is paranoid because they worry that someone is plotting against them.  They think this person would like to harm them but otherwise they live a normal life with work and family. There may be a problem but it falls short of excessive.

Person two is sure people are out of get him, thinks its the military, believes they have his house wiretapped.  States that he can see uniformed military hiding under his bushes in the yard.  Says he can both smell and taste in his mouth the "gas" they are pumping into his home.  Drills a hole in his home and runs a pipe through it so he can get fresh air from the outside into his house.  Has his children go outside with a baseball bat and beat the bushes to make sure no one is there.  Doesn't believe the kids when they say there isn't.  Wife gets upset and leaves husband taking children.  Husband can no longer work due to his fears.  Man calls for help.  The person they call calls police because what his friend told him "sounds crazy."  Police come to investigate and get in a 10 hour standoff with man.

Thats excessive.  Its also not fiction because I know this person.

A mental health professional doesn't have to be terribly objective to discern the difference.  What is sad is that had anyone he knew hauled him off to a mental health center for treatment it wouldn't have happened.

(in reply to ExistentialSteel)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 6:19:18 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		Great! Now describe excessive narcissism.

As a non-professional I would say that most of my Hollywood friends were unusually self-obsessed and extreme social butterflies - does that qualify? What if they were successful, does it change the diagnosis. Does it matter when they were successful?

"Yeah, dude - it's great that you played Eddie in the TV series "The Courtship of Eddie's Father." What have you done lately? Yeah right, but it wasn't picked up..."

Actors have to promote themselves to a level that most of us find unappealing - it actually makes them unlikeable. Is that a disorder or just part of the job? And this is but one example...

Let's face it, this particular disorder is HUGELY subjective.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 9:01:59 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		He was making the point that someone that has a nonfunctioning life due to the list of symptoms would be identified as having this disorder, unless they had reduced functioning it would just be their personality. The guy that thinks aliens are watching him but functions may be paranoid, but he functions, the guy who demands that everyone bow to his magnificence but can't keep a wife and a job isnt functioning

BTW sociopath is also a personality disorder,... do you doubt this one exists? Or do you think that Ted Bundy was just a "mean" dude?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 9:26:32 AM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline 		They don't call it that any longer - it's now called "Antisocial personality disorder."

Let me turn the table around on you: define "normal." Give me a sense of what everything else is being "measured" against. Because if you can't really do that, then we have a problem don't we?

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 9:41:36 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I can't define normal, but I could define pathological...smiles. I think it is a little like that quote "I can't define obscenity, but I know it when I see it". Perhaps it is the adjectives used to describe this that trouble you, because we have all been grandiose at one time or another for example.

I am someone that has little faith in psychologists, I have much more in psychiatrists. I like problems that are easily identifiable too. I had an anxiety disorder at a point in my life.... I have it in "remission" I suppose in that I have not had a full blown panic attack in a long time. This is a physiological thing, measured with changes in brain chemistry. I suppose it is harder to "see" these types of disorders... like dissociative disorder and what not... they are real, but they are harder to measure.

Like I said earlier, medical science and psychology are melding every day... we will have genes that explain certain behaviors. We are just beginning to understand how every individual is probably genetically predisposed not only to appearance, but to behavior as well, and environment interfaces with that. So we shall see in the future how much behavioral psychology takes a back seat to genetics and psychiatry...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Chaingang)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 10:32:33 AM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		You're pretty perceptive, Chaingang.  Possibly more perceptive than most.

FTR, I have no trouble at all diagnosing OCWBD whatsoever.

That would be Adult Obcessive Compulsive Writing Blog Disorder, whereby an individual argues and criticizes a vaguely related topic rather than addresses the OP's original post, and in so doing, manages to criticize anyone and everyone who responds to the thread. 

Since the OP's initial question about Narcissistic Doms and Dommes is rhetorical, (being that there are Narcissistic individuals in every walk of life, and there are and will be Narcissistic Doms, Dommes, subs and slaves among them as a matter of course), I interpreted the OP's point to be both a warning and a possible request for pointers or guidance on how to identify and cope with them when encountered in this lifestyle.

Instead of addressing that original post,  L&M, true to form, initiates a debate on the absolute validity of narcissisism as a condition. Oy, Vey! 

If you will find My original response to the OP, you will note that I did not quote or restate the OP's original question or comments.  I also did not engage in the semantics over whether or not narcissism is a veritable 'disorder' because it is a human condition and the definition of the condition according to the dictionary of L&M is a waste of My time and is pointless, anyway. 

What I did point out in My original reply to the OP was a few helpful reads that might prove useful to those dealing with narcissistic types, whether or not they were specifically BDSM participants.narcissistic types, whether or not they were specifically BDSM participants.  Whether you or L&M care to realize it, My initial reply to the OP was exactly on point.

That post, of course, met with L&M's usual snide remarks, (again), and although I wasn't surprised, I did give in to the urge to gently point him down a different path through parable, which he of course took to literally mean that I must be confusing him for My ex. *laffing and shaking My head*

Because his arrogant and condescending sarcasm is so self consuming, he missed the point entirely, and yet made My point in his next reply, which struck Me as very funny.

The obsessive habit of hijacking thread to argue rhetorical semantics here  actually does a terrible injustice to those who might benefit from some constructive suggestions.

Whether or not Narcissism is a disorder, or merely a personality trait, can only be answered by those who live with the narcissists in their lives and by those who attempt to treat them so that the horrible suffering they cause can at least be mitigated to some tolerable, survivable level.

To have offered the self help tomes in My original response to the OP was at least constructive.  Those who cannot afford the expense of professional counseling or therapists can do much to educate themselves about what they're dealing with for nothing more than about $10 bucks and an hour or two of reading time.

Offering L&M a suggestion for the OCWBD disorder was not a personal attack, it was a tongue in cheek play on his response to ME, not to anyone or anything else.

The fact that he had to post yet another reply, as he will, no doubt, to this post, merely proves My point, again.

Keep your bridge, please, Chaingang.

I challenge both you and L&M to improve yourselves and the thread by bringing something positive, rather than negative or argumentative or insulting or sarcastic, to the board.

Surprise Me, both of you:  Be Gracious!  Be Helpful! Be a Leader! Be a Great Dom! Show some class, compassion and grace. It would be so refreshing for a change.

TexasMaam





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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 12:17:12 PM   
mstrjx


Posts: 2045
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline 		I somehow think I fall so opposite from that tree, and gladly so.  (I would hate to be a Master and have a trait that a submissive or slave would find a danger sign.)

I am not a selfish Dom/Master.  It rarely is about 'me', unless I'm disguising the 'for my pleasure' for 'you really need to serve THIS way and this is how I'll accomplish that'.  I'm passionate about my viewpoints on topics that I feel I truly understand, and tend to be polite about (or ignore) the rest.  When I became active in the community more than a dozen years ago, I felt so much like the 'little rooster that couldn't'.  All of the Dom's were trying to out-Dom each other to get attention - does anyone really care if your whip is so much longer and wider than the rest??????, while I stood humbly by.  Eventually I was somehow seen as different (I won't say better), and my reputation was born and grew.  Even now, without a sub/slave/life-partner, I'm starting over and I find it difficult to get the attention that I perhaps rightly deserve because my approaches are so much more subtle and not overbearing.  (Wipes away a virtual tear.)

But requiring to dominate anything/everyone/every topic that enters my path?  Um, no.  Not my deal in the least.  I have found that my self-knowledge created an aura around me that allows doors to be opened for me without asking.  Much more subtle, which suits my style.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 1:12:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		TexasMaam, as I said before, I don't understand what you're trying to convey.  There are people who are interested in the question of whether NPD is a genuine disorder, how it's diagnosed, and so on.  You're not.  So leave it alone.  Calling people obsessive-compulsive, comparing them to your ex-husband, and accusing OTHER people of hijacking threads doesn't do very much except attract attention to yourself--and gets in the way of a conversation that was going very well until you interfered.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 2:02:52 PM   
FirmhandKY


Posts: 8948
Joined: 9/21/2004
Status: offline 		^^^^ makes TexasMa'am's point.



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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 3:21:01 PM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

^^^^ makes TexasMa'am's point.



nods... I agree

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Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 3:52:16 PM   
Chaingang


Posts: 1727
Joined: 10/24/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam
Whether or not Narcissism is a disorder, or merely a personality trait, can only be answered by those who live with the narcissists in their lives and by those who attempt to treat them so that the horrible suffering they cause can at least be mitigated to some tolerable, survivable level.


Ah, so your focus isn't even on the person with the disorder but on the hapless people around them that can't tell they have a disorder until it's too late?

I'm sorry, but I see it as foundational that the diagnosis can be discussed in such a way as to be nearly universally accepted. Do you have a disorder if one doctor thinks you do, but ten others disagree? What if they can't agree on the definition?

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexasMaam
To have offered the self help tomes in My original response to the OP was at least constructive.  Those who cannot afford the expense of professional counseling or therapists can do much to educate themselves about what they're dealing with for nothing more than about $10 bucks and an hour or two of reading time.


So even if your suggestions are pop psychology drivel - at least you tried to be helpful? Wow, and for this you pat yourself on the back?

Again sorry, but if you can't get beyond foundational issues as pertains to actual experts in the field and the way they go about diagnosing some things there is no basis for turning into an armchair amateur as some sort of substitute. That's absurd!

To me the most unethical thing is that your apparent focus is not on the person with the possible disorder - you're just trying to help those around that person. How convenient. Sounds a lot like the way people sometimes try to have others committed for their own convenience. Does it benefit the person being committed? Isn't that the foundational question? Can doctors help that person?


< Message edited by Chaingang -- 5/29/2006 3:54:18 PM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 4:30:18 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Fast Reply...


This seems to be getting way personal...wow

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 4:46:28 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Having only skimmed part of this thread, I have no idea if Lam was/is being argumenative or not. I know he can be, but so can a great many others here at CM, male and female, sub and dominant. But from what I gather, if he responds to TxMaam, he's argumentative, or narcisstic, or a dipstick? If he doesn't respond, he looks like she put him in his place? Bit of a no-winner there, hmm?
 
Don't ya'll make me get out my Elvis Costello version of "Koom-bi-ya"........

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 4:55:11 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I could have predicted that.  If only I really were a narcissist--then I'd love all this attention.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

nods... I agree

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 5:22:52 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Fast Reply...


This seems to be getting way personal...wow


Hello A/all,

In the classes I help teach, I am the proverbial obnoxious scumbag and the student has to face me out on the mat.

I insult the student.  I call the student names.  I pick fights.  I yell at them.  I am creepy to them.  I portray a person whose elevator doesnt go all the way to the penthouse.

The student, on the other hand, has a job to do.  They have to get me to go away and leave them alone.  There are a few basic verbal strategies for doing this, some of which are...

1)  Tell them to go away; this may work, although some men (most often it is men) may interpret this as being challenged.  Men tend to have difficulty backing down from somebody who challenges them.

2)  Direct them somewhere else (go talk to that security guard over there)

3)  Create a scene; people who assault others dont want to draw attention to it.

4)  Use empathy;  Gee, I have this really bad bird flu I picked up in Thailand...

At times, after my barrage of verbal abuse, the student will do things like call me names, or even (in some cases) try to attack me.

While the student is trying to do this, the lead female coach is saying to the student "Do you really want this fight?"  As the class progresses I have been giving them a longer fight each week; my goal is to overtrain.  They always win, but it gets more difficult for them to do so every week.  Eventually, they realize that they really dont ever want to actually be in a fight because fights are scrappy and messy and unpredictable.

People who have a propensity for escalating conflict, when these words are said to them, often appear to me to have a major epiphany as they realize that escalating conflict ends up with being dragged into a conflict they didnt want in the first place.

Or as I said to a guy I work with on the docks, when he showed up with a face that looked like hamburger and a story about a barroom fight he was in.  "Eventually, dude, you are going to start a fight with somebody more nuts than you are."

While this thread was interesting from the standpoint of those who have experience, education, and/or a quest to expand their knowledge base about the topic of psychology of certain individuals.  The mindless bickering it seems to be devolving in to is, to me, too much like taking my work home with me.

Enjoy your evening,

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 6:04:24 PM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Having only skimmed part of this thread, I have no idea if Lam was/is being argumenative or not. I know he can be, but so can a great many others here at CM, male and female, sub and dominant. But from what I gather, if he responds to TxMaam, he's argumentative, or narcisstic, or a dipstick? If he doesn't respond, he looks like she put him in his place? Bit of a no-winner there, hmm?
 
Don't ya'll make me get out my Elvis Costello version of "Koom-bi-ya"........


Level sums it up well.

_____________________________

For those who are like Roman Candles leaving bright trails in the night sky while the crowd watches until the dark blue center light bursts into magnificent colors and the crowd goes, ahhhhhhhhhh.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 10:10:25 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Sinergy, what on earth does all that have to do with this thread?

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/29/2006 10:12:26 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		As I understand it he was indicating that people escalate things they tend to get out of hand so to speak, kinda like this thread. But I could be wrong... etc

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/30/2006 12:44:07 AM   
Kedikat


Posts: 680
Joined: 4/20/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

I'm just kind of stunned that people are speaking about PD's as though they were real things, just because they're listed in some diagnostic manual.  Really, how do you apply those criteria to DIAGNOSE someone with NPD?  What does "excessive" mean?  What does "preoccupied" mean?  Almost everyone in the world would qualify as a narcissist by someone's interpretation of that language.

If you can show me physical abnormalities in the brain that contribute to these characteristics (as in the case of dementia, depression, and so on), then I might take this more seriously.  But as long is at all depends on observing someone's behavior and deciding whether it qualifies as "excessive" or "grandiose," the concept sounds fictitious and very dangerous.


As a physical disorder causes a problem in your life, so can certain personality/character traits. You can exhibit physical problems but not have them cause problems, and you can have personality quirks but they aren't a detriment to you.

It is the level of problems they cause that puts them in the catergory of disorder. And some can actually be detected in the brain function. The ability to see locations and levels of brain activity during stimulus and situations has shown that people with disorders that manifest in personality, can have different brain function patterns.

Most personality disorders are labelled as such, when they cause obvious problems to a persons life and or health. This includes the effects on others.

I have a physical deformity, a missing pectoral muscle. It causes me no life problems other than women who are attracted to big symetrical pecs. If life was a constant Mister Universe contest, it would be a disorder maybe.



(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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