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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 4:21:47 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

I'm surprised our own resident narcissist hasn't weighed in on this thread. It's a shame because he's usually pretty entertaining.


A narcissist would never admit that he/she is bound to this illness.  Or he/she would blame others for it.


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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 5:40:15 AM   
ExistentialSteel


Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
Status: offline 		First let me say that was an excellent post, Michael.

For my thoughts, I will say that the DSM is supposed to be the authority. However, in psychiatry, group discussions of patients are held daily with psychiatrists, residents, interns and nurses where patients are debated. I was surprised at how subjective the whole process was. If someone was good at controlling groups, he/she would win their point and a certain treatment regimen would take place. I came to realize if anyone could put any interpretation to the DMS they wanted, the whole field is questionable. A conclusion I came to with many others who were only doing their perfunctory rotations in psychiatry is that there are crazy people and there are people who are just screwed up.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 7:02:02 AM   
becca333


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag


Regardless all this debate has really wandered off the topic.  The OP asked if someone with NPD would be likely to be attracted to this lifestyle and the answer is, that should they become aware of it, yes they would likely be attracted to it for the reasons I gave in my earlier post.  Likewise, narcissist (not NPD, but simple narcissism) would also be attracted to this lifestyle.

In point of fact, and many of us have seen it, this lifestyle attracts a lot of social misfits precisely because as self styles "doms" and "masters" they imagine they can create an environment where they do fit in, where they are in control.  Simply put, there are many social misfits who perceive this lifestyle as providing a place to fit in, because they are unable to adapt to normal society.



You see exactly the same thing happening at Science Fiction conventions - mostly perfectly nice, sane people and a handful of total fanatics.  But it also happens in amateur dramatics, quilting, local history associations, gardening clubs, sporting associations, and just about any other organised group.  There's always the megalomaniacs, the detail fanatics, the dreamers, the organisers, the think-big planners, and all the normal ones who actually get things done. 

And they'll split up into fiercely opposed factions based on where the doors were located in the Enterprise, or what kind of thread is best for quilting, or how to say a certain line for dramatic effect, or which local family settled the area first. Wars are waged over the correct interpretation of an otherwise unimportant phrase.  Blood is spilled over who said what to whom and what they REALLY meant.  It even happens on websites, believe it or not!

And yes, there's a Narcissist or two in the mix as well.  Because they're constantly using people up and craving more attention, they tend to move on to the next group pretty soon, always seeking the ones who'll understand how wonderful they are and adore them properly.  BDSM would attract them, but so would many other groups, it just depends on their opportunities - I've seen sweet little old ladies who ran entire country towns with a grip of iron.  Just depends on what you've got to work with.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 9:21:58 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		But we're not calling "happy," "sad," "angry," and so on DISORDERS.  They're emotions, and I wouldn't demand a physiological explanation of emotions (although there are some remarkable gains in that direction in neuroscience).  The claim being made about NPD is much stronger than what you're saying about emotions.  If an entire profession is going to declare a certain range of actions and attitudes as symptomatic of a DISORDER, I can't believe they would satisfy themselves with criteria that can only be subjectively evaluated.  If someone wants to claim a disorder in the medical field, they have to have damned good physiological evidence before anyone takes them seriously.  (Read about what's going on with Morgellon's Disease, for example.)

Moreover, I have to wonder about the purpose of all this.  In this thread, a professional said this:

quote:

Any personality disorder is NOT a disease.
It is not a illness. It cannot be treated. It cannot be cured.
They simply are.


If it's not a disease and cannot be treated, what exactly is the purpose of classifying it in pseudo-scientific language?  OK, you go to the shrink and the shrink diagnoses you with NPD.  Then what?  Seems like a lot of money is changing hands for no purpose.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

If I say I am sad... what do I mean precisely?  You don't know.  You can infer some general things, such as "I am not happy" (opposite of sad), "something must have caused me to be sad" (which is making an assumption), "this is not normal behavior for me" (assuming you know me well enough to know that I am normally happy), etc.  But if you were asked to describe how sad I am, measure it, quantify it, you'd be at a loss.  The same is true if we say we are in love, or we are angry, etc.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/28/2006 9:23:59 AM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 9:23:15 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		No, the person I THINK she's talking about has freely admitted his condition.  I don't think it's right to reveal his screen name, although he has said it publicly more than once.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

I'm surprised our own resident narcissist hasn't weighed in on this thread. It's a shame because he's usually pretty entertaining.


A narcissist would never admit that he/she is bound to this illness.  Or he/she would blame others for it.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 9:57:33 AM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

But we're not calling "happy," "sad," "angry," and so on DISORDERS.  They're emotions, and I wouldn't demand a physiological explanation of emotions (although there are some remarkable gains in that direction in neuroscience).  The claim being made about NPD is much stronger than what you're saying about emotions.  If an entire profession is going to declare a certain range of actions and attitudes as symptomatic of a DISORDER, I can't believe they would satisfy themselves with criteria that can only be subjectively evaluated.  If someone wants to claim a disorder in the medical field, they have to have damned good physiological evidence before anyone takes them seriously.  (Read about what's going on with Morgellon's Disease, for example.)

The point I was trying to make, and perhaps not too clearly, was that whether it is NPD or being sad, both are things that happen inside your head and therefore are not directly observable (the actual phenomenon itself isn't directly observable, though we can observe the resultant behaviors).  There is no "happy meter" and no "narcissim meter" we can hook someone up to.  To determine if a person is, "normal, but slightly arrogant" vs "narcissistic" vs "severely narcissistic to the point of it becoming a disorder" is done mainly through observation by the psychologist of the patient over a period of time, and in that it is subjective.  There are guidelines to this of course.  For it to be a disorder it generally has to be debilitating, it has to exist to such a degree that it significantly impairs the person from functioning.  Let me see if I can come up with a more common example.  Okay, alcoholism.

I drink, but only with meals and I don't get drunk.  Am I an alcoholic?  No, it does not in any way impair my ability to function nor do I lack control over the behavior.

If I were to drink to the point of getting drunk on a regular basis... then am I an alcoholic?  Maybe, maybe not... more information is needed (observation).  For example if some does this, but only at parties for example, then they are not an alcoholic (but they may be a college student).  If they do it regularly at home as a regular routine they might be an alcoholic, or not, more observation is needed.

If I were to regularly drink to avoid dealing with my problems, now am I an alcoholic?  Possibly yes, the alcohol has become a crutch and by using it to avoid my problems rather than cope with them its beginning to impair my ability to function as a person.  But at this point we don't know that the impairment is significant... the person could still hold down a job, be a parent, etc... they may not be very good at it, but they could possibly do it.

If I were to drink constantly, could not turn down a drink, was rarely sober... has it become a disorder?  Possibly, someone like this is becoming extreme enough in the behavior that it impairs their ability to function in many or most areas of their life.  Such a person will need help in order to put their life back together, they are no longer able to do it on their own.  Such a person is no longer in control of their behavior, and the behavior is likely preventing them from doing necessary things like working, maintaining relationships, etc.  That's a disorder.

So someone narcissistic may not be extreme enough for it to be classified as a disorder.  For it to reach that point, take those DSM definitions and ask this additional question... do these behaviors occur to a degree that significantly impairs the persons ability to function in many or most parts of their life?  And that narrows it down quite a bit.  Hopefully that comes across a bit better.



quote:

Moreover, I have to wonder about the purpose of all this.  In this thread, a professional said this:

quote:

Any personality disorder is NOT a disease.
It is not a illness. It cannot be treated. It cannot be cured.
They simply are.


If it's not a disease and cannot be treated, what exactly is the purpose of classifying it in pseudo-scientific language?  OK, you go to the shrink and the shrink diagnoses you with NPD.  Then what?  Seems like a lot of money is changing hands for no purpose.

Its not a statement I agree with.  A disorder can be treated, or at least some of them can.  Those that cannot currently be treated, are so because we currently lack the knowledge of how to treat them, not because they are incurable.  You're right, if they were entirely untreatable or incurable it would be largely pointless.

This is another area of contention in psychology... there is a lot of debate about how things should be done.  There are different groups of psychologists with different ideas about what is and is not possible.  I've studied a lot of the behaviorist, most of whom believe virtually any human behavior, including disorders, can be changed.  But there are others who disagree... and each tries to prove their point of view.  I happen to think the behaviorists are largely right.  I believe that in part because I've seen a lot of demonstratable and quantifiable results come from behaviorists... namely, they changed behaviors in a predictable and repeatable way (that last qualifier being very important to arguing the method as a science).




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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 12:11:22 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Well, we're going around in circles a little bit, but that's obviously not a good example for you.  Alcohol addiction comes with very clear and definable physiological changes to the body.  (It's one of the classic cases, in fact.)  I've never heard anyone claim the same for NPD.  To boil down what I'm saying to the bare essentials: if you can't point to any physiological phenomena in the body, you're not authorized to call something a disorder.  Annoying personality--sure.  Many perfectly normal and healthy people have annoying personalities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Let me see if I can come up with a more common example.  Okay, alcoholism.

I drink, but only with meals and I don't get drunk.  Am I an alcoholic?  No, it does not in any way impair my ability to function nor do I lack control over the behavior.

If I were to drink to the point of getting drunk on a regular basis... then am I an alcoholic?  Maybe, maybe not... more information is needed (observation).  For example if some does this, but only at parties for example, then they are not an alcoholic (but they may be a college student).  If they do it regularly at home as a regular routine they might be an alcoholic, or not, more observation is needed.

If I were to regularly drink to avoid dealing with my problems, now am I an alcoholic?  Possibly yes, the alcohol has become a crutch and by using it to avoid my problems rather than cope with them its beginning to impair my ability to function as a person.  But at this point we don't know that the impairment is significant... the person could still hold down a job, be a parent, etc... they may not be very good at it, but they could possibly do it.

If I were to drink constantly, could not turn down a drink, was rarely sober... has it become a disorder?  Possibly, someone like this is becoming extreme enough in the behavior that it impairs their ability to function in many or most areas of their life.  Such a person will need help in order to put their life back together, they are no longer able to do it on their own.  Such a person is no longer in control of their behavior, and the behavior is likely preventing them from doing necessary things like working, maintaining relationships, etc.  That's a disorder.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 2:16:18 PM   
theprofitprinces


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Status: offline 		well someone with that personality disorder shouldn't be a domme then. Narcissitic personality disorder is a serious psychological problem. Thereapy and sometimes medication is needed to treat this conditition. Many times people suffering from one mental illness usually suffer from symptons belonging to another mental condition. A domme should be healthy and stable as well as a submissive/slave.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 3:25:21 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
Joined: 6/22/2005
Status: offline 		L&M,

I was once married to a man who loved to argue for the sake of argument.  We could not go anywhere, into any setting, whether it be a family gathering, or a group of friends, or an event that was important to one of our careers, without his always posturing to argue and debate any and every single topic that was raised in the conversation.  He relished these arguments, and always took pride in having proven his point, thinking he had in some way impressed those he argued with, or he would derive some sort of sense of accomplishment at having one upped those he'd engaged in verbal combat. 

The reality was that people began to avoid him like the plague and they dreaded inviting us to any social activity knowing he was powerless to control himself.  I finally got so tired of his obsession with arguing that I decided he could continue this inane practice without Me. 

After our divorce I learned that he had adult obsessive compulsive disorder, characterized by arguing any and every topic just for the sake of argument!  Years later, I still found value in much of what he had to say, if and when I had the patience and the time to listen to it all, which, granted, was not very often.

So many posts on CM are a lot like that disorder that was so intrensic in the daily behavior of My late great Ex.....debating a point only to debate a point, without offering much constructive leadership or guidance.  Still, you're a gifted writer and I often find much value in a lot of what you post, if and when I have the patience to read through all of the argumentative swill.

Thank you for the spelling correction.  That was a really positive step!  Perhaps if you continue with that kind of therapy you'll find it beneficial.

And since I'm a firm believer in always offering something positive by way of guidance or leadership, here's a link for you...

The OCD Workbook: Your Guide to Breaking Free from Obsessive Compulsivc Disorder, by Bruce M. PH. D. Hyman and Cherry Pedrick

Available at http://www.amazon.com

TexasMaam


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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 3:58:43 PM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		If you don't want to discuss the issue, leave the thread alone.  I don't understand the point of your post.  There are other people who must be getting something out of this--otherwise we wouldn't have reached six pages.

In any case, I'm certainly not going to stop stating my opinion just because you recommended yet another self-help book.

Oh, and I assure you I am not your ex-husband.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 5/28/2006 4:01:30 PM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 5:01:55 PM   
TexasMaam


Posts: 1467
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Status: offline 		See?

<laffing

TexasMaam

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 5:52:18 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder."  For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.

quote:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements) 
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love 
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions) 
(4) requires excessive admiration 
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations 
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends 
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others 
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her 
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

I'm not saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE.  We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD.  Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?


It not a Disease... It's a Disorder....   The two are not the same thing.

Secondly, thou this is a description of behaviors of a person with NPD.  It doesn't in of itself mean that a person has NPD just because they have all this list.  It really comes down to are they functional in their relationships.  Individuals could very much have all these descriptors, but are they able to function effectively in their every day life.  It is often because these types of indivduals have other character traits that balance out the negative descriptors.  However, a person with NPD or any personality disorder by consequence is unable to function effectively because of both of the destructive personality behaviors they have and also the lack of character traits that promote fuctionality.

At the end of it... How is life working for them?.... if it's not going so well..... after after awhile... one needs to start to look within for the problem and stop blaming the world for things going wrong for them.



editted to add... guess I should of finish reading the thread... obviously not much point to post to this

< Message edited by KnightofMists -- 5/28/2006 5:58:23 PM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 6:35:43 PM   
Chaingang


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Status: offline 		TexasMaam:

That's pretty damn close to a personal attack on someone you probably don't even know. The grammar/spell-check police thing can be tiresome - but sometimes people are just trying to help you out for next time. Stick to the subject of the thread. Or was your outrageous attempt to diagnose OCD from afar supposed to be on point?

These disorders should be diagnosed only by trained experts. And hell, even they are probably wrong a lot of the time. But if you think you can diagnose something from an online conversation I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.






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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 6:48:46 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
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Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

There is a big difference between a narcissistic personality and a narcissistic personality disorder.

The former can be determined in 3 minutes of talking to the person.  It is easily cured, also, by asking the person to lose your phone number and walking away.

The latter requires 3 things.

1) Objectivity.

2) Analysis, diagnosis, time on the couch

3) Study of and practice diagnosing mental illnesses.

Having said that, there was a fascinating article on the narcissistic personality in Psychology Today 2 issues ago. 

Enjoy!

Sinergy

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 6:52:44 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

A narcissist would never admit that he/she is bound to this illness. 

Or he/she would blame others for it.



Actually, only one of these can be true.

What the person does is blame the other person for being offended by the narcissist's words or actions, or perhaps claim that the other person misunderstood what they were doing, or...

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy



_____________________________

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 7:40:39 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		Where's the objectivity?  I still don't get it.  How do you objectively determine that someone has NPD?  Maybe I'll just accept that I'm not going to get an answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

1) Objectivity.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 7:52:53 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Hello A/all,

Well, when person with suspected psychiatric disorder goes to the psychiatrist, I am assuming that the professional would have a level of detachment or objectivity in their analysis of the person's psyche.

Reading what person X posts on a web site about person Y, and then using that as the basis for making a psychiatric evaluation, is not, in my opinion, an objective viewpoint.

Just me, could be wrong, could there be a disorder about my opinion?

Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Where's the objectivity?  I still don't get it.  How do you objectively determine that someone has NPD?  Maybe I'll just accept that I'm not going to get an answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

1) Objectivity.



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 7:59:09 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Where's the objectivity?  I still don't get it.  How do you objectively determine that someone has NPD?  Maybe I'll just accept that I'm not going to get an answer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

1) Objectivity.



or maybe others need to accept that no answer would be acceptable if it is contrary to your expressed opinion.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 8:31:42 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
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Status: offline 		I don't consider a subjective opinion by a professional to be objective just because the person making the opinion is a professional.  If a professional wants to explain how he or she makes an objective evaluation of concepts like "excessive," "grandiose," and "preoccupied"--instead of just repeating that psychiatrists go to school for a long time and get shiny degrees when they're done--then I'll know something about how this works.  Until then, we're going to have to let this one lie, because all the sarcasm and hostility directed towards me is getting pretty fucking annoying.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Well, when person with suspected psychiatric disorder goes to the psychiatrist, I am assuming that the professional would have a level of detachment or objectivity in their analysis of the person's psyche.

(in reply to Sinergy)
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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 5/28/2006 9:08:21 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
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Status: offline 		 
Hello A/all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Until then, we're going to have to let this one lie, because all the sarcasm and hostility directed towards me is getting pretty fucking annoying.

instead of just repeating that psychiatrists go to school for a long time and get shiny degrees when they're done--



I apologize for making comments you find annoying.  I dont really have a problem with people not agreeing with what I post.  More to the point, I personally have a list of people who I grant the power over me to alter my emotional state.  If you are not on that list (last I checked my kids were the only ones on it) I wish you luck trying to control how I feel.

I was under the impression this was an internet message board where people could post whatever they felt like posting.

From what I understand, a psychiatrist is a person who went to medical school, did their residency, got their Md., and then did a one year psychiatric residency.  So a psychiatrist is somebody who studied the brain and/or psychology of it for minimum of one year.  On the other hand, their medical training allows them to perscribe medications to treat psychiatric disorders.

A clinical psychologist is somebody who went to school for an Ma/s and/or possibly a PhD in Psychology.  So the clinical psychologist is somebody who studied the mind (or lack thereof, in my case) for 4-9 years.

A therapist is somebody who went to school to get, at a minimum, a Masters degree in therapy or social work, which is 6 or so years.

Of the 3, the only one qualified to make the evaluation of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is a psychiatrist, although many institutions offering therapy / treatment of mental illness have teams of therapists and psychologists with a psychiatrist overseeing their cases.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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