quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

It is the level of problems they cause that puts them in the catergory of disorder. And some can actually be detected in the brain function. The ability to see locations and levels of brain activity during stimulus and situations has shown that people with disorders that manifest in personality, can have different brain function patterns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaingang

They don't call it that any longer - it's now called "Antisocial personality disorder."

Let me turn the table around on you: define "normal." Give me a sense of what everything else is being "measured" against. Because if you can't really do that, then we have a problem don't we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Good!  That's exactly what I'd like to see.  Do people with NPD have "different brain function patterns"?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

It is the level of problems they cause that puts them in the catergory of disorder. And some can actually be detected in the brain function. The ability to see locations and levels of brain activity during stimulus and situations has shown that people with disorders that manifest in personality, can have different brain function patterns.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Pink,

That's a very interesting comparison.  Fibromyalgia is extremely controversial and there are doctors who argue that the diagnosis should be abandoned.  (For example, the editorials in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Rheumatology, starting on page 1665.)  I don't know nearly enough about the science to comment on fibromyalgia, but if you're going to compare it to NPD, it stands to reason that many people will have doubts.

MS is a very different case, as I'm sure you know.  MS is associated with myelin damage.  That's clearly a physiological phenomenon, even if it's not yet known how that happens.

Lam

Edited to add: Come on, Kedikat, Broca's Brain was written about 30 years ago--before NPD was even contemplated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Pink,

That's a very interesting comparison.  Fibromyalgia is extremely controversial and there are doctors who argue that the diagnosis should be abandoned.  (For example, the editorials in the August 2003 issue of the Journal of Rheumatology, starting on page 1665.)  I don't know nearly enough about the science to comment on fibromyalgia, but if you're going to compare it to NPD, it stands to reason that many people will have doubts.

MS is a very different case, as I'm sure you know.  MS is associated with myelin damage.  That's clearly a physiological phenomenon, even if it's not yet known how that happens.

Lam

Edited to add: Come on, Kedikat, Broca's Brain was written about 30 years ago--before NPD was even contemplated.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

While the DSM IV may list those things as part of having a "Narcissistic Personality Disorder" AND you may feel that most people you know could easily qualify, let me assure you that once you have met a person with this disorder you never forget what it is. 

Think of all these traits magnified as far as you can.  Lacking any kind of empathy and arrogant to the max!  No one wants to be near these folks and they burn out people faster than a wildfire.  They "suck" you into their world.  Because of the work I do, I have "spidey senses" regarding personality disorders.  They walk into the office and my nose starts to tingle.  There is no medications that helps and probably no therapies that are really effective with this population.

Generally, I just want to get away!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

NPD wasn't created last year. It has been around as long as folks I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Kedikat, I don't really want to argue with you and you strike me as a reasonable person, but don't you see the circular reasoning in what you just said?  NPD must have been around since time immemorial because the DSM claims that it's a disorder?  That's like St. Anselm's proof of God.  The only way to prove that NPD has been around for as long as the human species WOULD BE to show its physiological basis--and that's exactly what no one has been able to do.  I doubt it's there; I believe NPD is an invention of an overzealous profession.  But time will tell, because new advances are made every day, and NPD definitely won't be in the DSM fifty years from now if there's still no physiology to support it.  There's really not much more to be said about this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kedikat

NPD wasn't created last year. It has been around as long as folks I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: sharainks

In any field it is those in the field who determine the "facts" of the field. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, I'm very skeptical that there really is such a "disorder." For one thing, the DSM grounds for diagnosis are so vague and subjective that three-quarters of the people I know could qualify.

quote:


(1) has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
(2) is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
(3) believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
(4) requires excessive admiration
(5) has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
(6) is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
(7) lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
(8) is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
(9) shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

I'm not saying there aren't narcissists in the world; I'm saying that I doubt narcissism is really a DISEASE. We don't diagnose things like tuberculosis or pneumonia by the same wispy criteria that we're asked to accept for NPD. Really, who hasn't been envious of others or hasn't shown arrogant, haughty attitudes?

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ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Your own father's quote undermines what you just said. People don't determine facts.

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ORIGINAL: sharainks

In any field it is those in the field who determine the "facts" of the field.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Sinergy, what on earth does all that have to do with this thread?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

A book was once written called the Diagnostic and Standards Manual which was considered the definitive discussion of psychiatric evaluation.  It was, at the time.

It was determined to need revision as research and study mandated changes.

Then a new book was released called the Diagnostic and Standards Manual II.

Then DSM III was released.

DSM IIIr was released.

I think the latest is DSM IV, but I have been out of the loop for a while.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'd argue that we do indeed determine "facts".

Facts and evidence may be objective but what we will take into consideration, how we value it, how we interprete it, is far less objective. We, as the observer or student or judge determine which "facts" to use and which pieces of information are even going to be called "facts".