RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/1/2006 9:14:23 AM

thetammyjo

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Please note my use of quotation marks to disguish the difference between facts and "facts" -- I agree there are objective facts but I don't think how human being use them or define them is irrevalent at all.

In history we prefer to not even use this word fact and instead use evidence or data because we can see that how information is used varies greatly as well as what survives. I can't use evidence that doesn't exist now even if at one time facts about the question did exist or if we do not have the means to access the facts.

Am I making any sense?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Well, that's a whole separate discussion, but "facts" and "how we interpret facts" are by no means the same thing. Facts would be facts whether human beings exist or not; how we go about making those facts relevant to our lives is a different matter.

Anyway, you can't criticize someone for clinging to his opinions and ignoring "facts," and AT THE SAME time claim that human beings determine facts. I mean, skewer me on one horn of that dilemma or on the other, but not both. Otherwise, the criticism just reduces to "You're not a psychiatrist--at least I don't think you are, although I have to admit that I really don't know who you are--therefore your opinions about psychiatry can't possibly be meaningful."

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I'd argue that we do indeed determine "facts".

Facts and evidence may be objective but what we will take into consideration, how we value it, how we interprete it, is far less objective. We, as the observer or student or judge determine which "facts" to use and which pieces of information are even going to be called "facts".

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/1/2006 9:21:02 AM

Lordandmaster

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Yes, and I agree with you, but I was responding to sharainks's comment that "People seldom care to have their opinions clouded by the facts." Unless I've totally misunderstood her, what she means is that psychiatric professionals determine what's a personality disorder and what isn't (that's the "fact"), and no one else's opinion matters. Needless to say, I find that a very unpersusasive viewpoint. Aside from the fact that psychiatric professionals are merely human beings like anyone else, they themselves often disagree with one another.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Am I making any sense?

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 6/1/2006 9:25:21 AM >

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/1/2006 10:24:36 AM

wandersalone

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I have been following this thread with much interest however am writing this with some trepidation as I know that this still does not give any physiological indicators that NPD exists.

I can only give some examples of the patterns shown by people with a diagnosis of NPD who have then been referred to the agency I work for (again can I stress this is purely based upon my own experiences - I am a psychologist)

inability to form romantic relationships with the reasons generally being that the other people were never 'good' enough or that the other people did not acknowledge/understand how 'special' I am
no close friendships - no one 'understands' me
inability to sustain employment due to their belief that most jobs were 'beneath' them
losing jobs because they were unable to work as part of a team
belief that they are being 'victimised' by pretty well anyone who does not agree with them
history of making unfounded complaints -unfair dismissal, complaints about health professionals etc
belief that they will never be caught for illegal activities because they are too smart

Now before you press 'send' in reply to what I have written can I add that my understanding is that a psychiatrist would need to see examples of repeated patterns over a sustained period of time and that the diagnosis is related to how dysfunctional the clusters of behaviours/patterns are. So whilst many people show signs of some of the DSM IV criteria, how many people show several of the behaviours over a sustained period of time - years, not months? How many people show these patterns of behaviour in many if not all aspects of their life?

Thankyou to everyone who has contributed to what is a very interesting discussion

wanders

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/1/2006 12:13:18 PM

Lordandmaster

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Yes, one thing I probably should have been clearer about: I'd certainly agree that anyone exhibiting those characteristics could use some help. I mean, by definition, someone whose behavior prevents him or her from leading a normal life is someone who can't lead a normal life. What bothers me about the whole NPD business is not only the danger that Chaingang mentioned--that healthy people might be misdiagnosed as "disordered"--but also the danger that real disorders might go undiscovered for generations because they're masked by bad categories. We don't treat apoplexy or hysteria anymore, but there was a time when many highly qualified professionals would have insisted that these were real pathological conditions.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/2/2006 7:23:33 AM

thetammyjo

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We as a collective of human beings are constantly learning new things about ourselves or opening our eyes to new ways of looking at ourselves.

I think as a collective we tend to put too much blind faith in people of authority and we just go to whomever our insurance will cover or whomever is closest to drive to. I think we need to shop around for doctors, therapists included. A good doctor or therapist will help the client discover their own solutions not just give out a diagnosis.

The good therapists I've searched for and found always tell me that the DSMIV is useful primarily for insurance and hospital records if I'd ever need to go to one. Frankly, they are more interested in helping me figure out how to help myself and become the best person I can be.

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/2/2006 7:39:57 AM

Fawne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Unless I've totally misunderstood her, what she means is that psychiatric professionals determine what's a personality disorder and what isn't (that's the "fact"), and no one else's opinion matters.

This thread does go on! May I jump in again, please?

Yes, the psychiatrist would solely do the diagnosis, just like any other doctor.

What's really scary to me: it is really the pharmacutical companies who "invent" or flex diagnosis for pure profit?

Is medicine altruistic? Or economic?

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/2/2006 7:44:44 AM

Fawne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
I think as a collective we tend to put too much blind faith in people of authority and we just go to whomever our insurance will cover or whomever is closest to drive to. I think we need to shop around for doctors, therapists included.

I totally agree! We need be responsible for ourselves as well. Besides preventatively : activily. Be a participant in our health and medical treatment.

Take care, fawne

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RE: Narcissistic Personality Disorder - 6/2/2006 9:35:10 AM

Lordandmaster

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I'm not talking about the diagnosis on a patient; I'm talking about the determination of disorders in the first place. Doctors hardly determine what constitutes a disease. Scientists of all kinds--biologists, microbiologists, virologists, biochemists, and so on--are involved in that process.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fawne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Unless I've totally misunderstood her, what she means is that psychiatric professionals determine what's a personality disorder and what isn't (that's the "fact"), and no one else's opinion matters.

This thread does go on! May I jump in again, please?

Yes, the psychiatrist would solely do the diagnosis, just like any other doctor.