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RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:09:25 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		It shouldn't matter if an employee is full or part time. Not if an immediate family member is hospitalized. What's next  employers firing people for attending the funerals of immediate family members? Only in the US. So much freedom, so little protection.

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RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:19:24 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		In the first case, if the mother hadn't missed work and gone to the hospital with her pregnant daughter who is a minor,  she could've been prosecuted for neglect. Parents neglecting minors is against the law. In the second case, the temporary agency was informed in advance and they forgot. So the second worker was fired for the company's forgetfulness.


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Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


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(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:25:09 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

It shouldn't matter if an employee is full or part time. Not if an immediate family member is hospitalized. What's next  employers firing people for attending the funerals of immediate family members? Only in the US. So much freedom, so little protection.


Unless you were part of the manager/HR meetings about these employees, you do not have the complete story. 

Re: FMLA - Lady Pact had it right however there is also an "intermittent" Family Leave option, for when a family member has a long term illness - this allows the employee to leave as-needed (not a continuous leave) to take the family member to the doctors, tend to the family, etc.  But the qualifications remain the same.

Re: Temp employees notifying the agency rather than the company if going to be out - not necessarily so. Where I work we have long term assignment contractors.  If they are going to be out, they let *us* know, so we can make arrangements for their absence.  These contractors/temps have specialized skills and are trained on specific projects - it's not as simple as the temp agency simply bringing in a replacement cog for the wheel, so to speak.

Employees have LOTS of protection in the US, and employers often have their hands tied.  Do not assume to know the full picture.  It is really hard to fire someone (at least in California), actually.  Typically if fired, they've had verbal warnings, written warnings, and have been put on a performance improvement plan. Or they violated the law somehow, or fudged on their time card.  Of course, fired employees won't tell you about that part.

Management and HR are prevented from discussing any employee issues with other employees - there are laws against this.  This is why, unless you are part of that management or HR, you do not know the whole story.


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RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:35:11 PM   
orchid77


Posts: 125
Joined: 5/20/2011
Status: offline 		Most places of employment are at will employers. Meaning you can be fired for just about anything...but they have to give you a reason. So tell them to ASK why they were fired. They should be told. I cannot speculate on anything else. FMLA requires paperwork, a medical doctor, and HR approval. Read the policy of the temp agency. A temp agency use people who CAN WORK...if you can't work...they are not obligated to keep anyone...but they are obligated to find someone else who CAN work.



< Message edited by orchid77 -- 11/18/2011 1:36:37 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:43:52 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline 		My company bends over backwards for me. But the woman who has to struggle to make 40 hours? Not so much.

I'm sticking to my guess # 2.

2. There was history leading up to this - employers don't fire solid employees based on one family emergency

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 1:56:19 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		NV is completely correct.  Intermittent excused time off of work has to satisfy similar requirements and medical standards.  Many people can use that rather than being completely off from work for twelve weeks unless the situation calls for around the clock care and no other family member is available to provide it.

The rest I think I'll skip.  It's a bit overly dramatic in looking for an excuse for My tastes.  The "could haves" honestly aren't the responsibility of the employer.



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(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 3:53:51 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		Having done tons of temp work in my past I can tell you that a temp agency does not have to keep you if you can't do the job. They hire people who can work, not those who can't work. It's temporary....not permanent work. You agree to take a job through them and you agree to work every single day. It's written right in the contract when you sign up for a temp company. The contract also states that if you cannot complete the work they have the right to dismiss you. Doesn't matter what your reason is.

But that's not to say that if you had an emergency and had to leave that they won't hire you again for a project but they don't have to. If they feel that you will be the type of person who won't complete a job or you have done it more than once they're not gonna keep you on. Why would they waste their time and money doing so?



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RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 4:01:52 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		FR My firm employs several staff members.  If an employee is a good, valuable employee, you work with them when they need time off.  If they are a pain in the ass, such requests are a perfect excuse to get rid of them.  In fact, bad employees rarely "request" the time off, they just take it and expect to be accomodated after the fact.

I have to agree that there is probably more going on here than the OP reveals.    

< Message edited by Iamsemisweet -- 11/18/2011 4:03:47 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 5:04:48 PM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		There is protection from the law, however, an employee has to also do their part and produce documentation, make sure they communicate with their employer etc etc etc.  You don't sound like you have enough information to determine whether or not they did as THEY should have to meet the requirements.

Did the man get permission to take the day off?  Telling an employer you are taking a day and making sure your employer approves of same -- especially if the EE handbook states this - are two different things.

Did the woman communicate with her employer as to why she wasn't at work?  What did the employer say when she called?  Did they say no you have to come into work or you are fired.  Did they say don't worry about it?

Simply saying 2 people were fired is as vague as saying the eyes were colored.  Tells you nothing.

If these people think they were improperly fired and they can't afford an attorney, tell them to go to their local legal aid or probono clinic and speak to someone about whether or not they have an FMLA claim.  They should also apply for unemployment and request they get a copy of the dismissal letter if they never got one.  That will state why they were let go. 

I just can't see an established company being stupid enough to fire two employees for FML.  There is probably more to this than you know.

angel



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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 5:49:11 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

"Also, the majority of temps work full time. 1250 hours is 31 weeks full time, not hard to meet at all."

This is where it gets tricky. From what I've gleaned temp agencies are exempt from damnear everything. What's more their markup is about 100%. No shit, a guy making $8 an hour for himself, the temp agancy charges $18. And alot more people work through temp agencies in this country than many think. If you make $12 an hour at a temp agency they are chraging well over $20 an hour for you.

They don't check anything, they don't look for OSHA problems, they don't settle disputes, yet they get more than the person actually working. The monumental task(s) performed for this small fee ? Run ads, interview people and find ones competent enough to do the job and destitute enough to work for half of what they're worth, and then write a check every week taking out taxes and shit. You get a check from the company they work for and you are effectively a middleman.

Do countries that have competitive labor pools have middlemen selling the employees' time while producing fucking NOTHING ?

T^T


Termy, I temped for years. The higher the pay of the temp, the lower the percentage the agency is going to get.

I didn't work in the industrial field, but if there are specific OSHA requirements, either the agency or the company still has an obligation to make sure the temp is aware of them.

Theoretically, there are no disputes. The hours worked are paid by the agency, not the company. If there is something going on at the job site that is not right, the temp needs to call the agency and let them know. The temp should logically leave the site without ramifications from the agency. I once temped where the hours were different than what I was told (a frequent problem when contracted through the HR dept). I was there a week, arriving what I thought was ten minutes early before the woman asked the person training me if I was that "late" every day! Since I worked for the agency for a long time and was one of their top employees, I had the fax directly from the company in my pocket that listed the hours. I did, however, after that call the agency, tell them what was going on with this woman and that I would finish out the week, but not return due to working conditions. I was at a new company on Monday with no problem on my end. Actually since it was At&T I was at another office in another department. Didn't effect my career at all. In fact, I ended up a couple years later working with that woman's boss, who was a VP. Apparently, she was always that difficult and unliked. Sure, she was still there, but I didn't have to work with her and it didn't adversely affect me, so not my problem.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 5:56:20 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Re: FMLA - Lady Pact had it right however there is also an "intermittent" Family Leave option, for when a family member has a long term illness - this allows the employee to leave as-needed (not a continuous leave) to take the family member to the doctors, tend to the family, etc.  But the qualifications remain the same.


But you still need to work out that intermittent leave with your employer, you can't just do it and tell them after the fact.

quote:


Re: Temp employees notifying the agency rather than the company if going to be out - not necessarily so. Where I work we have long term assignment contractors.  If they are going to be out, they let *us* know, so we can make arrangements for their absence.  These contractors/temps have specialized skills and are trained on specific projects - it's not as simple as the temp agency simply bringing in a replacement cog for the wheel, so to speak.


In the case of long term contractors, the agency still has the *rule* that the contractor is supposed to call them. Most long term contractors worth a damn know the value of a good relationship with the company and will tell their supervisors at the company AND let the agency know. If they don't let the agency know, the agency may question the lack of hours on their time card. Even though they have this *rule* about the agency doing all the dealings with the company, I've never worked for an agency that had an issue with the dual notification.



(in reply to NuevaVida)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 7:52:41 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

Did the man get permission to take the day off?  Telling an employer you are taking a day and making sure your employer approves of same -- especially if the EE handbook states this - are two different things.


Good point. I ask my manager for permission via email and after he grants it send out an Outlook calendar invitation to him and my coworkers. Approval would never be the least bit ambiguous. I'm sure there are workarounds for lower tech companies.

(in reply to barelynangel)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 8:43:25 PM   
DarkSteven


Posts: 28072
Joined: 5/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

It shouldn't matter if an employee is full or part time. Not if an immediate family member is hospitalized. What's next  employers firing people for attending the funerals of immediate family members? Only in the US. So much freedom, so little protection.


Have you read the posts in this thread?  There's more to it.

You have heard what the fired employees told you.  Their sides of the stories.  If they had been exemplary employees, they'd still be employed.

While I have no doubt that willbe understand better than I, my understanding of RTW is that it is restricted to conditions regarding whether a union shop may require nonunion employees to pay dues.  It has nothing to do with at-will employment, which describes the fact that either employer or employee can sever the employment at any time.


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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 9:23:55 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		It's possible the woman had other family related absences since she's our roommate's co-worker and I don't know her. But as I mentioned before, not missing work to be with her minor daughter would've been breaking the law. The retired man was not at fault. He retired from an oil refinery he worked at for over 35 years. I don't think he would've lasted that long with the same company if he was an unreliable employee. His job was driving vehicles to different towns and/or states. I think the temp agency had contracts with car dealers. Considering the fact that he can drive a semi as well as operate a back hoe, crane, and other heavy equipment I seriously doubt he had a problem doing such a simple job.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 10:06:01 PM   
LafayetteLady


Posts: 7683
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Northern New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

It's possible the woman had other family related absences since she's our roommate's co-worker and I don't know her. But as I mentioned before, not missing work to be with her minor daughter would've been breaking the law. The retired man was not at fault. He retired from an oil refinery he worked at for over 35 years. I don't think he would've lasted that long with the same company if he was an unreliable employee. His job was driving vehicles to different towns and/or states. I think the temp agency had contracts with car dealers. Considering the fact that he can drive a semi as well as operate a back hoe, crane, and other heavy equipment I seriously doubt he had a problem doing such a simple job.



And yet, if this woman was so *busy* at the hospital with her daughter, she never called out, that is a good reason for the employer to fire her.

As for the guy, there could be a host of reasons why they did it.

The point is YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW. You know what you were told, and it doesn't mean it is the whole story.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 10:58:20 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"The point is YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW. You know what you were told, and it doesn't mean it is the whole story."

A mouthfull indeed. It also seems that no matter what there are employees and then there are employees. Last time I did real drugs I stopped by work to pick something up when I was supposed to be working and said straight out "it was coke night". " Coming in tomorrow ? ". "Yes". And the one guy who worked there asked why I got to show up when I damnwell please and they get on his case for not being on time or some shit. What can I say ? Instead of brag I said "Because that's how the deal was from he start". I was actually one of the best in the field, and pulled them in a hell of alot of money, but there was no sense in saying that right out.

There are always people who will be cut alot of slack, and I would hope that it's because it's in the best interest of the company, not because of nepotism or personal reasons. Like they would never fire Ed. At one time Ed was not allowed to go out for lunch. They would bring him ANYTHING he wanted but if he went out for lunch he would not come back. In that part of the city he would find some crack hos and start partying and not be seen for weeks. But the MF's skill level was so high they would put up with almost anything.

There are other issues though. If you work on an assembly line, your function is codependent on that of others and vice versa. Working in construction is quite similar. You have to be there when the others are there.

Other jobs are different.

T^T

(in reply to LafayetteLady)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 11:21:11 PM   
wandersalone


Posts: 4666
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		I thought you were busy  trying to make this a memorable first christmas as a married couple, why are you interested in something that is not your business?  Planning some unexpected time off?

edited to fix typo


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Profile   Post #: 37
RE: fired for family issues - 11/18/2011 11:38:38 PM   
defiantbadgirl


Posts: 2988
Joined: 11/14/2005
Status: offline 		I think it depends on the company too. When the man was still working at the oil refinery and an immediate family member was in the hospital, as soon as he told them, he was given the day off with pay......real pay not minimum wage. That's how he was used to being treated. Now this stupid temporary service gets rid of him because he told them in advance and they forgot. I had something similar happen to me once. My cousin was getting married and I told my manager a month in advance that I needed that day off. I didn't get fired over it, but I had an unexcused absence counted against me. Nothing like being forced to accept consequences for the mistake of someone else.


_____________________________


Only in the United States is the health of the people secondary to making money. If this is what "capitalism" is about, I'll take socialism any day of the week.


Collared by MartinSpankalot May 13 2008

(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: fired for family issues - 11/19/2011 8:09:09 AM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		It was your responsibility to check the schedule to make sure you were marked off right before you left for your cousin's wedding. At my former work I always did that. I told my boss a month ahead of time or as soon as I was able to and then I'd check the schedule to make sure she marked me off. If not then I went to her to remind her to take me off and to make sure there were no other problems before I took off that I had to take care of before I left.



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Profile   Post #: 39
RE: fired for family issues - 11/19/2011 8:31:01 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
Joined: 6/16/2011
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl

I think it depends on the company too. When the man was still working at the oil refinery and an immediate family member was in the hospital, as soon as he told them, he was given the day off with pay......real pay not minimum wage. That's how he was used to being treated. Now this stupid temporary service gets rid of him because he told them in advance and they forgot. I had something similar happen to me once. My cousin was getting married and I told my manager a month in advance that I needed that day off. I didn't get fired over it, but I had an unexcused absence counted against me. Nothing like being forced to accept consequences for the mistake of someone else.



Had you made the request in writing and had his approval in writing there would have been no consequences against you.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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