RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave?

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heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:05:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Short of brainwashing, you can't change someone else. Change only occurs when that person wants to change. You can help someone change, but you can't change them. quote: ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave, Personally, I've always found that view offensive. I'm not some broken little girl that can't get my crap together and needs direction just to function. Just because you've labeled yourself as a dominant doesn't mean that you're in a position or even qualified to improve me. A relationship is a two way street. We support each other in our desires to improve ourselves, but neither one of think we're so special and sparkly that we can decide and impose "improvement" on the other. Thank you for your reply OsideGirl. The first sentence in your reply is something that i have always believed and something i think i hadn't factored in. Thank you again for your reply. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:10:24 AM)
Thank you for your reply, that is a very interesting point. In the case that i am thinking of, i am sure that if this aspect of this person were to change many would think it is not an improvement. One of the other posters made the comment that i didn't mention what the issue is, but i am going to give an example of something similar in my own life. i used to be unable to tell people no on most anything they wanted me to do. Over the years as i got more secure, i got to the place that i could tell people no. i am sure that some people who were using me because they knew i would always say yes were not so thrilled with the change, while others who cared about me were glad that i had come to the place where i could put up boundaries. That is the kind of thing that i am talking about. Thank you again for your reply, it gave me something to think about. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:16:22 AM)
A romanholiday, thank you for your reply. i apologize for my deliberate use of the nebulous term core. i tried in a reply to a previous poster's comments to give a better example, but i wil supply another one also one of my own that my former Dominant tried to change and that is that i have the tendency to be too generous at times, giving away more than i can afford to give. It is part of my nature to be a giver, part of the core of who i am, but by doing it too much, i can end up hurting myself financially, causing additional stress in my life, etc. And maybe change is not the best word to use either, maybe temper would have been a better word choice. Thank you again for your reply. i also like your question as well. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:18:53 AM)
Thank you for your reply, MasterSlaveLA and yes i am aware that any relationship that we have as humans can change how we view things, do things, etc. However i was asking primarily based on the authority dynamics of a M/s relationship, how or if that authority can or should be used to change a specific issue in someone's life. Thank you again for your reply. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:20:11 AM)
Thank you LafayetteLady for your reply, hopefully with my extended explanation it will be more helpful.

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:23:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: HeatherMcLeather At first I was going to say an unequivocal yes, I am a vastly different person than I was a year ago and it is entirely due to Hanners' influence. But then I got to thinking about it, and I realized that nothing about the core of me, nothing about who I am has really changed, just how I present that person has. She has awakened feelings and aspects of myself that I was unaware of before, but she did not instill them. She saw them and showed them to me. She saw me as a much stronger person than I thought I was, and has patiently showed me again and again that I was. She did not make me stronger, she showed me that I was, and that gave me the confidence to be that person. The more I think about it, the less I see it as a molding, and the more it seems an awakening or education. And that to me makes it all the more magical. [:)] So my "yes" has to change to an "I don't know, maybe." Thank you for your reply Heather, i really like it. To me what you described would still count under change to me.

DesFIP -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 5:45:33 AM)
You can change habits and behavior, you cannot change personality. You cannot turn an extrovert into an introvert or vice versa. You can get them to be more comfortable being alone or in being in a large group of people but that doesn't change who they are.

kalikshama -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 6:16:34 AM)
This is an issue for therapy: quote: For example, and this is not the case here, i am just giving a for instance, what if a slave has an addictive personality. Do you think that is something that his or her Master should try to change or control? This is not: quote: For example, Tasha is about to quit smoking. She knows it's bad for her and that I hate it. I doubt she'd quit if it were not for my influence and disapproval. (Unless, heaven forbid, she were to go from nicotine to alcohol to gambling...)

kalikshama -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 6:28:46 AM)
quote: How much has your Master or Mistress changed who you are? Have any of those changes been to the core of who you are as a person or just some behaviors if any? Would you want to be changed at the core of who you are? My ex D forced me to advocate for myself in a more masculine manner. This kinda backfired on him. /snicker/

MikeSojourner -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 6:48:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl quote: ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave, Personally, I've always found that view offensive. I'm not some broken little girl that can't get my crap together and needs direction just to function. Just because you've labeled yourself as a dominant doesn't mean that you're in a position or even qualified to improve me. A relationship is a two way street. We support each other in our desires to improve ourselves, but neither one of think we're so special and sparkly that we can decide and impose "improvement" on the other. I did not mean to imply that slaves are "broken", unable to function or improve themselves without a dominant. And, indeed, if there are real issues that need to be addressed, I'm not qualified to help with them - that's what professional therapists are for. I will disagree on the "imposing improvement" - In some relationships, that is exactly what is allowed. The submissive has given the dominant permission to steer them in whatever direction the dominant decides. Not my style, and apparently not yours, but doesn't mean it isn't a valid choice. My personal style is more along the lines of helping a submissive grow in the direction she chooses. Just like I expect a submissive to help me achieve the goals I've set for myself. Yes, a two-way street, but not the same type of help and support in both directions. I tend to provide direction, motivation, and support. My submissives tend to provide information, knowledge, time, and effort. Could the submissives have achieved what they did without my help - most likely. But, focusing on helping each other achieve/change/do something became part of our dynamic.

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:11:11 AM)
Thank you Lizi for your reply. You are correct choosing wisely is very important. Thank you again, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:13:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep I think sometimes a person can have things "at the core" that are negative and destructive. A D-type can inspire you to change those things, but the work of changing is up to you. If the D says "don't do that," you still have to obey, and sometimes simply obeying isn't so easy if it's something you really want. But at the same time, as was said earlier, D-folks aren't therapists. They're not super heroes and they're not gods with crystal balls. I think sometimes people go into relationships expecting that the D is going to assume control and remodel and remake them from a pile of dirty laundry into a model, upstanding citizen. I don't really think that's a D's job, though it can be if s/he wants to make it so. I agree with Heather about the idea that, in a lot of cases, it's not really the deep-down you who has changed but the way you feel able to express "you." I changed a boatload from before I met my late M until after. And lizi is right that it's pretty crucial to pick well -- pick someone who you can have faith in to not lead you off over the edge of a cliff. =p But he saw things in me that I denied, he took things that I pushed down or was afraid of and made them normal and natural and wonderful. Those things were there, they just had to be redefined. I do believe, though, that who you are at the core is something that does evolve and change. We are constantly evolving You take experiences and information and melt them back into yourself, like tectonic plates. So I do think that a D can have an effect on what experiences and information you assume back into yourself. I also don't necessarily think that changing something at the core is always a sign of "not liking you for who you are." Thank you LillyBoPeep for your reply. i really like that part that i bolded, it is very good. heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:16:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aileen1968 On the flip side, I'm lucky enough to be able to do the same for him. He has said that he is a much better person since having me in his life. He's better at work, he's happier. I'm also supportive of him and help him through hard times that are a result of negative aspects of him. I think it only works though if someone wants to make changes. Force will have no effect at all. * snipped for the sake of brevity Thank you for your reply Aileen. I really like that last part. May i ask, if it was a situation like i went on to describe of being over generous or not being able to say no, do you think the last part would hold true? Thank you again for your reply, heartfelt

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:20:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DarkSteven I can change her as much as she will allow it. For example, Tasha is about to quit smoking. She knows it's bad for her and that I hate it. I doubt she'd quit if it were not for my influence and disapproval. Thank you DS for your reply. May i ask a quick couple of questions as i don't know if you identify as a Dominant or a Master, which are you to Tasha? and the other question, is this, as much as she will allow it? Was wondering exactly what you meant by that. For example, i could see if a M type wanted some behavior to change, if the s-type wanted to maintain that behavior badly enough, he or she could leave the relationship to keep the behavior. In the extreme, is that what you meant? Thank you again for your reply, heartfelt

littlewonder -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:20:24 AM)
the sub/slave has to want to change the core of themselves. A Master can't do that unless the sub/slave is susceptible to some kind of brainwashing but I think very few are. I have changed certain things about myself by his orders or because I felt it better to do so for the sake of our relationship and because well....it just makes it easier to be his slave lol. But he liked me for who I am at my core when he met me so I don't think there would be a reason why he would want to change that in me. I would no longer be the person he originally met and he fell in love with. I've never understood why someone would take a slave they didn't like to begin with.

heartfeltsub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:23:28 AM)
Thank you littlewonder for your reply. As i tried to indicate, although i think it was unsuccessful, it is not a matter of not liking the person or who they are, but rather behaviors based on who they are (like being too generous or the inability to say no) that are ultimately detrimental to them. (if that makes any sense) Thank you again for your reply, heartfelt

littlewonder -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:29:01 AM)
I used to be the type that couldn't say no. You know how I broke that habit even before I met Master? I got tired of being walked on and taken advantage of. After so long of that happening you eventually say fuck it, get angry and finally say "NO"! Maybe it's an age thing..I dunno. But I simply got fed up with it. Like I said in my original statement, I've changed certain behaviours and patters about myself for Master and our relationship. Who I am as a person though has not changed. My morals and values are still the same. Those have not changed and I don't think he'd want those to change. I would no longer be the same person. I would be someone completely different.

Asherscorp1 -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 8:32:49 AM)
I trust my Master completely with all aspects of my life, so if he wanted to change me I would try like hell to make it a success. Even if it were something I felt was integral to making me who I am I would trust that M knows what he's doing and it would be for the best. However, even with a willing subject "changing" someone is not easy and not necessarily possible in every situation. Maybe the Master doesn't have the skill to actually make it work, maybe the slave doesn't really want to change and ends up undermining the process. When I think of the things I consider to be deeply part of who I am I can't imagine Master changing them. There are aspects of my personal morality/spirituality/beliefs that I can't see being "trained" to feel differently about. I am sure I could be taught/trained/changed to express myself differently or to behave differently but my actual beliefs would still be untouched. It's the last step of changing my perception of the world and with it my beliefs that I am not sure would ever work regardless of how hard I'd try.

OsideGirl -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 10:00:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner In some relationships, that is exactly what is allowed. The submissive has given the dominant permission to steer them in whatever direction the dominant decides. The key here is that the submissive has to want that change. If the submissive is unwilling, even subconsciously, the dominant can try to steer them all he wants and it won't work. The reality is that the dominant isn't changing the submissive. The submissive is changing to please someone else, which in the end rarely works.

fragilepieces -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 10:31:15 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: OsideGirl Short of brainwashing, you can't change someone else. Change only occurs when that person wants to change. You can help someone change, but you can't change them. quote: ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave, Personally, I've always found that view offensive. I'm not some broken little girl that can't get my crap together and needs direction just to function. Just because you've labeled yourself as a dominant doesn't mean that you're in a position or even qualified to improve me. A relationship is a two way street. We support each other in our desires to improve ourselves, but neither one of think we're so special and sparkly that we can decide and impose "improvement" on the other. You saved me key strokes thanks.

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