RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (Full Version)

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LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 10:33:20 AM)

Being a smoker is not about who a person is at their core.

What Heather described was basically having a feeling of safety to be who you are openly and a building of self confidence, which further allows that.

Things like dieting, smoking cessation and such has nothing to do with the core of who a person is.



LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 10:55:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

My morals and values are still the same. Those have not changed and I don't think he'd want those to change. I would no longer be the same person. I would be someone completely different.



I snipped this down because while the other things littlewonder said were certainly valid and meaningful, the above is truly the point.

Morals and values are what is at the "core" of a person. All the examples given are not part of a person's "core" but rather habits they have, good or bad.

littlewonder, I hope you don't mind me using this example you mentioned somewhere else recently. She drank coffee everyday and her dominant decided she should stop. Was this in any way "core" to who she was as a person? Did it change her behavior? While I'm sure at first, that caffeine withdrawal might have made her a little bitchy, it changed a HABIT, not a behavior.

On the other hand, monogamous vs. polyamorous relationships do tend to be based on those core values a person has. We see all the time subs who have engaged in poly relationships at the urging, insistence, persuasion of their dominant. Typically they are posting how unhappy they are, asking how they can "learn" to be accepting of this. Being poly isn't part of who these people are at their core, but a dominant (in all his "infinite wisdom") has convinced them they can change this if they try hard enough. Rarely, if ever, have I seen these subs do a 180 and decide that poly is great and they love it. They may become more accepting, and they may repress their feelings about it, but, at their core, they still don't like it. Now others, they can't imagine a monogamous relationship. That's part of the beauty of life, I guess. There are enough people with those common interests that a poly person never need "change" to accept monogamous relationships and a monogamous person never need change to be poly. Asking either to do that can damage that "core" we keep talking about.

So should a dominant try to change behaviors/habits? Well that all depends on what the people involved discussed when starting the relationship. Because for a dominant to come home one day and say, "you know, I've decided I don't like this" to me is just an arbitrary exertion of power and that is rarely a good thing either.



LillyBoPeep -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 11:05:53 AM)

Yeah but there are other things that are moralistic in nature that can change. Say a belief that you come first no matter what -- that's a statement of a person's values, but it can change. I had a male friend who had that epiphany after his girlfriend had a baby. He became a completely different person. Or say, a belief in ethnic or religious superiority -- did anyone else see the article about the man who had all of his facial tattoos removed when he changed his life and renounced his neo-nazi past?
Morals and values are only as concrete as the experiences we have that may alter them.
While it may be rare for a mono person to realize poly is "better" or visa versa, it does happen. Just because some things may be static for some, doesn't make them static for all.



LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/20/2011 12:13:38 PM)

Which is why I didn't say "all." Even then, those changes come from within the person not because someone else has wanted or strived to make it happen.



Rule -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/21/2011 12:19:15 AM)

One makes more progress swimming with the flow than against the flow.

A slave is a tool. A tool needs to be honed and applied to its best purpose.

It is quite possible to hammer in a nail using a plow, and conversely to plow a field using a hammer - but such carpenters and farmers are not overly bright and would do better to either exchange tools, or to exchange their professions.



MasterSlaveLA -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/21/2011 5:44:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Thank you for your reply, MasterSlaveLA and yes i am aware that any relationship that we have as humans can change how we view things, do things, etc. However i was asking primarily based on the authority dynamics of a M/s relationship, how or if that authority can or should be used to change a specific issue in someone's life.



Yes, I'm well aware that your question was based on an "authority" dynamic (or what I call a "Power Dynamic"), and can certainly APPRECIATE the impetus for the question -- I simply don't think it matters, as I've seen those of the Vanilla, BDSM, or M/s ilk "change" for their significant other, and those of the Vanilla, BDSM, or M/s ilk NOT "change" for their significant other.  Hence my answer that it's the PEOPLE INVOLVED that matters, not the dynamic.

Too many, I think, incorrectly believe (from a place of ego or some other delusion) that just because one of the s-type sort obeys, that some sort of "change" regarding a certain "issue" has taken place -- it doesn't.  Obedience does not equate to "change". 

Example:  Assume one (of either the s-type or vanilla sor) is OCD and frequently washes their hands, or turns a door knob 15 times, or whatever the hell their "issue" is.  They can certainly be ordered (by their Toppy or Vanilla partner) NOT to do said hand washing, door knob turning, or whatever, but that doesn't mean the other person's "issue" has "changed" -- as one cannot force REAL change.  However, if one (of either the s-type or vanilla sort) DESIRES to "change", then the "issue" CAN be changed with the help of their Toppy or Vanilla partner. 

This is why my initial post stated this has nothing to do with any Authority/Power Dynamic -- but with the people involved. [:)]






kiwisub12 -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/22/2011 3:44:48 PM)

If you knew me before i met my late master, you would swear that he had changed me radically - but he really didn't. He made me more me, in that what he bought out in me is more me than the me i was before. He enabled me to be truer to myself.

In other than superficial ways, he really didn't change me dramatically at the core of me. For instance, i don't think it would be possible to "make" me a sadist that is really into it. It isn't in me to be a happy sadist(don't you love that phrase!).



mons -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/22/2011 4:26:09 PM)

I know what Heatherr says is true molding and not changing the person within is so important!
We pick the person for what we see outside first, then we work on teaching things we enjoy!
I view my submissive to be more open to ideals and ways to do things but
I pick him for whom he is inside, humor is just great, how he outside!!!

mons



sexyred1 -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/22/2011 4:30:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl

Short of brainwashing, you can't change someone else. Change only occurs when that person wants to change. You can help someone change, but you can't change them.


quote:

ORIGINAL: MikeSojourner
Personally, I think one of the jobs of the master is to improve the slave,
Personally, I've always found that view offensive.

I'm not some broken little girl that can't get my crap together and needs direction just to function. Just because you've labeled yourself as a dominant doesn't mean that you're in a position or even qualified to improve me.

A relationship is a two way street. We support each other in our desires to improve ourselves, but neither one of think we're so special and sparkly that we can decide and impose "improvement" on the other.


Agreed. I think many people want someone else to take responsibility for them instead of making changes on their own. And most of the time, people who want to make others their "projects", often need to look in the mirror a bit more to see why.



devilsrigger -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/23/2011 5:55:07 PM)

The job of a true Master, is not to change the core of the slave, but rather, like the sculptor, remove the material away that prevents the slave from realizing, and displaying their core self.  That is the hallmark of a Master.

If a Master cannot properly recognize a slave-core when they see it, then the fault is their's alone.

In most cases, if a slave has a trait that is potentially harmful, then the Master must simply rechannel that energy into something useful and healthy- this is the craftsman side of being a Master.

Ultimately, the secret lies not with the Master, but with the slave.  The Master harnesses the slaves own desire, and makes a path for them to explore it... the slave does all the work.  A slave who properly worships her Master will do anything, and I do mean absolutely anything, to serve her Master as he wishes--- and beyond.

I've trained many slaves of every legal age, and without exception, they fall in love with me, then they worship me, and through my skills I break down every wall, every fear, every doubt, every objection they may have-  using their own need to focus their energy, until they are perfect.  It is my job to set the bar they aspire to, and then encourage, reward, punish, teach, and give them tools to not just reach that goal but to give them the opportunity to prove themselves by going well beyond of their own volition.

This is not to say it's easy either.  The goal is not to break a slave, any fool can do that.  It is to make them consciously make the choice to take each further step into absolute and total yielding of control-  and love it.




MasterSlaveLA -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 1:11:32 AM)

 
[sm=yeahright.gif]



whatisthewhat -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 8:57:10 AM)

He has said, more than once, that he loves who I am. He said that from the beginning. The only ways he has changed me or wanted to change me is that I curse like a sailor. He tells me what to wear sometimes. Is that changing the core of who I am? No. It's just window dressing. It seems to me that attempting to turn a slave into a different person is counter productive and also stupid. Anyone can give surface obedience to a command. That does not mean s/he internalizes that command as a true change in thought and/or behavior.



TreasureKY -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 10:24:05 AM)

I firmly believe that you cannot change someone else... your only control is to change yourself.  That being said, influence is always possible. 

It seems obvious that everyone so far has talked only of positive changes they have experienced under the influence of a dominant.  Who wants to admit their dominant is a bad influence?   [;)]



DesFIP -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 10:46:59 AM)

Hopefully no smart person would willingly sign up with someone who wants them to lose jobs, get into debt and so on.

I will say though that I've lost skills as a result of his decisions. He does all the driving. I almost never drive anymore. So if I have to, it's very difficult. Between him doing all the driving and my car being off the road for a couple of weeks before the shop could fix it, I got into it the other day and it was probably the first time in a month I was behind the wheel. I was very tense for the first couple of miles. And all I went was to the grocery store and back.

Practice makes perfect and if you don't get any practice at all, your skills atrophy.



TreasureKY -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 11:08:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I will say though that I've lost skills as a result of his decisions. He does all the driving. I almost never drive anymore.


Firm usually drives if we go somewhere together, but I still get plenty of time behind the wheel when I run errands.  However, this is exactly the type of "bad influence" I was thinking of. 

For me, I no longer have time for any of the hands-on type of work I enjoy... sewing, tatting, crafts, wood-working.  I feel my skills have deteriorated to the point of non-existence, as well as I miss having the creative outlet.  Fortunately, that comes to an end in December when we move back to our home in Kentucky; we're doing a complete gut and remodel and I'll have my fill of hands-on creativity.  [:D]

Edited to add:  And oh... my language is probably a bit more colorful thanks to Firm's influence.  [8D]



LillyBoPeep -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/24/2011 12:15:18 PM)

I picked up a pechannt for "colorful language," too. Haha
M was bad about that, annd he liked nto hear it because it was "unusual" for me. :p



devilsrigger -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/26/2011 5:02:18 PM)

I maintain that a true slave is not made, they are found.  If you must actually change the core-being of a person, then they never were what you were looking for in the first place.



SixMore2Go -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/26/2011 7:23:33 PM)

quote:

I can change her as much as she will allow it.
And that me friends, is the answer.



OsideGirl -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/27/2011 11:35:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: devilsrigger

I maintain that a true slave is not made, they are found. 
I maintain that there is no such thing as a "true slave" in D/s BDSM.



HeatherMcLeather -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/27/2011 1:29:21 PM)

quote:

What Heather described was basically having a feeling of safety to be who you are openly and a building of self confidence, which further allows that.
No that's not what I was describing at all. If had wanted to say that I would have. Please don't try to interpret my words. My words are carefully chosen and say exactly what I want them to.

Thanks.



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