RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave?

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devilsrigger -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 12:44:45 PM)
I wasn't attacking you, I was asking you. But I do know that you are responding emotionally, which largely suggests that you need to step back, take a deep breath, and do something else for awhile. DR

LillyBoPeep -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 12:46:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: devilsrigger Your analogy to a lap-dog is not correct either. No, my analogy is saying the same thing you're saying, you're just not understanding me. A lap dog is not a "broken dog." It's a dog with a different type of personality, different energy level, than a dog more suited to fire & rescue work. quote: Instead of trying to change someone, it is better to choose more carefully and help them be what they already are. My analogy basically says the same thing -- some people prefer dogs who are low energy and prefer to spend time on their laps, while others prefer dogs who are high energy, into legwork, searching, chaotic or frantic situations. You wouldn't take a low-energy lap dog and turn it into a sled dog, would you? No. But a person who seeks out a different kind of dog isn't suddenly a "fake" dog owner. If a chihuahua doesn't perform like a bloodhound, it doesn't make the bloodhound a more "true" dog -- just a different type of dog. M/s relationships are similar.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 12:46:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: devilsrigger I wasn't attacking you, I was asking you. But I do know that you are responding emotionally, which largely suggests that you need to step back, take a deep breath, and do something else for awhile. DR Actually I am responding to the obvious medical ignorance of anyone who would for DAYS demand that someone not have a bowel movement, and the number of medical problems it can create, some of which are immediately life threatening. Yes, I tend to get a little emotional about people who ignorantly put others in danger for nothing more than their own amusement.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 12:53:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: devilsrigger I'm not running. I just don't feel like it's necessary for me to justify myself further. I've input all I care to input on this particular forum. You do it your way, and you have a wonderful time. I'm just sorry that while I have been cordial, you feel the need to attack me. I would recommend, based on your attack, that you re-evaluate whether or not you should even been in this lifestyle. DR Well, thank you so much for the armchair psychology. I'm sure it is based on your concept that I'm simply not "submissive" enough. Your view that my comments were an "attack" are based on the fact that I called you out on dangerous behavior, and your whole "truism" idea. You lack the ability to understand that "true" for you, is not "true" for others, regardless of the number of people who have repeatedly tried to tell you. While for the most part, I do believe that each has the right to enjoy whatever activities they please, regardless of whether or not they are something I would partake in, I do draw a line both for myself, and openly when people engage in behavior that is not simply "edgy" or "high risk" but puts someone's long term and immediate physical health in serious danger and has a complete lack of knowledge or understanding of such. To put in terms that are easy for you to understand, no "true" master is ever going to engage in behavior that can land their property in the hospital due to stupidity.

devilsrigger -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 2:09:59 PM)
I wish you would refrain from stating your OPINION that not allowing a slave to defecate for 3 or 4 days is harmful, as if it were fact. This is an entirely unsupported opinion on your part. It does not take into account the person's diet, their training, their health, my skill, training, experience, and education, or any other fact. Nor does it pose an immediate threat. There are people who go multiple times a day, or just once per day or even once every few days. The average is 3 times a week, but again, it varies by individual. Not allowing someone to relieve themselves for 3 or four days (if no other condition is present) only constipates them slightly, depending diet. The function of the large intestine is for water reclamation primarily. By making sure that they maintain proper hydration, the stool, albeit higher quantity than they are used to, passes with no more difficulty than normal. I know a normal woman who only goes once a week. I also wish you would stop trying to bait me or insult me. You've called me stupid; you've implied I can't understand what you're saying; you've done so in an increasingly irrational manner, which again indicates to me that you need to seek counseling. The fact that you become emotionally charged to the point of attacking someone else is a clear indicator that you have lost your perspective. As for 'true' being one thing or another, if we take them to their extremes, true is black and false is white. No shades of gray. 'true' either is what it is for everyone or it is nothing for anyone. In other words, there are standards or their aren't. I choose standards so I have a means of evaluating things in relation to them. If you don't set a standard somewhere, you don't know where you really are. You might think you do, but until you measure yourself against a standard, you don't really know. And when I say 'you' in this context I don't me _you_, I mean 'anyone'. DR various wiki's; zocdoc, medical references, etc. You can go research it for yourself, have fun.

searching4mysir -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 2:50:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: devilsrigger I wish you would refrain from stating your OPINION that not allowing a slave to defecate for 3 or 4 days is harmful, as if it were fact. This is an entirely unsupported opinion on your part. It does not take into account the person's diet, their training, their health, my skill, training, experience, and education, or any other fact. Nor does it pose an immediate threat. There are people who go multiple times a day, or just once per day or even once every few days. The average is 3 times a week, but again, it varies by individual. Not allowing someone to relieve themselves for 3 or four days (if no other condition is present) only constipates them slightly, depending diet. The function of the large intestine is for water reclamation primarily. By making sure that they maintain proper hydration, the stool, albeit higher quantity than they are used to, passes with no more difficulty than normal. I know a normal woman who only goes once a week. I also wish you would stop trying to bait me or insult me. You've called me stupid; you've implied I can't understand what you're saying; you've done so in an increasingly irrational manner, which again indicates to me that you need to seek counseling. The fact that you become emotionally charged to the point of attacking someone else is a clear indicator that you have lost your perspective. As for 'true' being one thing or another, if we take them to their extremes, true is black and false is white. No shades of gray. 'true' either is what it is for everyone or it is nothing for anyone. In other words, there are standards or their aren't. I choose standards so I have a means of evaluating things in relation to them. If you don't set a standard somewhere, you don't know where you really are. You might think you do, but until you measure yourself against a standard, you don't really know. And when I say 'you' in this context I don't me _you_, I mean 'anyone'. DR various wiki's; zocdoc, medical references, etc. You can go research it for yourself, have fun. Those medical references are not talking about intentionally holding back solid waste for that long. They speak about if you don't physically have to defecate more than 3 times a week then don't worry about it. Therein lies the difference. Your slave feels the need to defecate, and your refusal to allow it could be construed as abusive. Personally, if a man tried to tell me I couldn't take a shit when I needed to, he would have to retrieve his balls from his own mouth.

Mazterlock -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 3:23:23 PM)
A submissive woman is still a unique woman. A Master has a responsibility to understand the core of her personality. Any behavior can be changed through training. But, you cannot or you should not try to change the fundamental aspects of a submissive's personality. I'm not looking to reduce a woman to an obedient robot. I want to find the root of her submissive passion and personality and nurture that. For example, you can train a submissive who acts out like a brat to stop that behavior but without learning what it is about her deeper personality that causes her to act that way. But, a healthy M/s relationship gets much deeper than that. Why a woman acts like a brat is a lot more interesting than simply forcing her to stop the behavior even if you are getting into areas that are not going to change.

lizi -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 3:36:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: searching4mysir Those medical references are not talking about intentionally holding back solid waste for that long. They speak about if you don't physically have to defecate more than 3 times a week then don't worry about it. Therein lies the difference. Your slave feels the need to defecate, and your refusal to allow it could be construed as abusive. Personally, if a man tried to tell me I couldn't take a shit when I needed to, he would have to retrieve his balls from his own mouth. Exactly what bothered me about the concept - it might be within human variation, but it doesn't seem to be this particular woman's norm. If you're asking someone to change the normal rhythms of their body on a whim, then it's not their normal pattern. Deviation from your norm is almost always a cause for concern in medicine, which is why a medical professional takes a history when you go to see them, so they can see what is going on that is different. It's true that some people have very slow bowels, if the person who was asked to hold back was not someone with a normally slow defecation pattern, then forcing her to change what her body wants to do it is not a great thing to do. DR you were right, the large intestine is primarily for absorbing water, so it it should also be understood that the longer the feces remains there, the more water is taken from it, and it'll become very hard while becoming larger. As it becomes larger and harder it becomes more abrasive to the rectal walls. Ideal conditions for hemorrhoids, anal tears, and fissures. You're also holding more matter farther up in the large intestine as it accumulates so that nice, hard, large, long, accumulation has a longer road to abrade with the scratching going on for longer at the exiting end. This is not speculation, it's fact. If it was such a desirable condition to hold back on defecating then why are there so many laxatives on the market and such a concentration on getting it out rather than keeping it in? If someone just told me to do something without knowing what could happen to me, I'd lose respect for him and the D/s relationship would suffer. Looking up something in Wiki and finding some aspect to justify a notion of yours without taking the whole picture into account doesn't inspire confidence. My Dom/Master/whoever had better want the very best for me, not say "Oh she'll be ok, we can let this go on for a while without damaging her". Fuck that. I'm not an experiment.

LafayetteLady -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 3:55:03 PM)
As a result of all of that impactions and obstructions can occur which require medical intervention. But hey, I'm just some silly, over emotional female who doesn't know what she is talking about. FYI: Having spent time as a caregiver to someone who had these problems occur, it isn't something smart people play around with for kicks.

devilsrigger -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 4:04:51 PM)
I think what irritates me the most with this is that a) people assume that she was powerless to defecate if she chose to do so, and that b) I just up and did this without knowing the medical concerns, knowing her physiology and medical condition or the ramifications of doing this. When I speak of such things, it is my fault for assuming it as a given that someone would not expect their slave to do something they weren't fully knowledgeable about. As long as proper hydration is instituted to prevent the stool from hardening, it issues forth like soft-serve. That is not a guess, it is a fact. No anal tears. no hemorrhoids, no fissures. Everyone tends to approach things through their own eyes. I approach the entire alternative lifestyle through a position of extreme knowledge, training, skill, understanding, education, and experience. I expect this from others who themselves claim to be Masters/Mistresses- I expect a core competency among you. Unfortunately, I can draw no other conclusion from the responses I've received except that apparently many of you don't approach it thusly. And because you don't, when posed with something extreme, new or different, you automatically assume that the person you're dealing with is as clueless about the topic as yourself. I find such ignorance to be simply appalling, and a significant hindrance to advancing intellectual discourse about this lifestyle and the external view of it. As for 'this woman's norm'- that holds no water at all. If you want people in the lifestyle to just be normal, let's put away the shackles, the collars, the chastity belts. The cock cages, the ball parachutes, the tens units. It's not normal to prevent an erection, or to hang weights on genitals or to pinch nipples so hard or to run electricity through the body or to cinch a waist. But people do it anyway. And enjoy it. They don't want normal- and neither does she. It might be very well that I am a medical professional, capable of giving my slaves a colonoscopy whenever I so choose- based on the responses I've gotten here, would I share that fact? I don't think so. Hope you all are warm and happy wherever you all are, DR

JstAnotherSub -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 4:24:13 PM)
quote: This was written after she was not allowed to defecate without permission (3-4 days had passed). Man, if you tried to make me hold my poop, you best be into scat, cause I damn sure aint cleaning up the mess.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 4:44:49 PM)
Devilsrigger, people here participate in all sorts of activities, and we don't always agree. most people here don't assume that people who randomly post extreme things know what they're doinnng until they've gotten some experiennce with them. Someoe like Kana can say something edgy because people are familiar with him. You are not familiar; do you think it's sound to assume that a random person saying ranndom stuff is an expert? Nno, it usually isn't. Anyway, my issue with you isnn't so much what you are doing with a consenting partner, my issue is your attitude that you and yours are real, and everyone else is "less than." Hopefully you'll stick around and learn more about the way other people do things. But if you just want to say whatever and have people hold you up as The Ultimate Master, then... this may not be the place for you.

kalikshama -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/28/2011 4:45:37 PM)
Sounds like fun [8\|] http://www.idahopedsgi.com/d/content/chronic-constipation If a child does not wish to defecate, he/she can forcefully contract the external sphincter and push stool back up into the colon away from the sphincters, thereby alleviating the urge to defecate. HOW DOES A CHILD DEVELOP CHRONIC CONSTIPATION? This mass becomes less easy to pass as it becomes larger and more dried out. As a result of this, one of two things may occur. The child may eventually be unable to resist the urge to defecate and with tremendous effort may pass a huge stool, thus relieving the rectal pressure until another fecal mass accumulates. The child may, however, be unable or unwilling to pass the stool regardless of its size. The rectal muscles and the external sphincter become fatigued with the effort of retaining stool and in time partially relax. Liquid fecal material from high in the colon will trickle down around the solid mass of stool in the rectum, and will leak uncontrollably through the anus into the child’s underwear. The child has no sensation of the passage of this liquid stool, and no control over this action, which is called fecal soiling or encopresis. Fecal soiling commonly occurs in the late afternoon or evening and less commonly during school or at night. Fecal soiling may also occur many times daily. Many children who experience soiling display a cyclic pattern of symptoms with progressively severe soiling, loss of appetite, and decreased physical activity culminating in the passage of a very large bowel movement. These children then feel better, eat better, and experience no soiling for a period of time until the cycle begins again. This pattern of fecal retention, constipation, and soiling may result from a number of causes. Whatever the primary cause, once the pattern is established the problem perpetuates itself, with stool withholding (retention) leading to dislike or inability to have a bowel movement (defecate), which leads to more voluntary withholding of stool.

SimplyMichael -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 5:13:51 AM)
What you get when you take a battered woman who feels helpless and without teaching her to first be strong and independant isnt a slave but a battered woman who feels helpless and still has very bad taste in men. Its kinda like the kid with the POS car with a loud muffler, he's all proud but the rest of us just laugh. Slavery in the kinky sense isnt about how low you can degrade someone, its about the contrast between who they are for others and about who they are for you.

tazzygirl -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 5:29:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: devilsrigger Your not a doctor, you wouldn't know, would you? DR Im a Nurse and a slave... And I resent the way you have presented slaves. What you and your slave described is some kink time.. and thats wonderful. All M/s relationships have their own form of kink. Nothing wrong with that. But utilizing thats as a standard to judge others by is wrong. What makes a woman a slave? natural instinct. What makes a woman His slave? He does. What is the difference? For the right man (or woman) any submissive can become a slave. What you consider a slave, someone else may consider a doormat, and the next person may consider a useless piece of meat who isnt worth being called a slave. Master still hasn't gotten His videos. cunt has been busy all day working and had no time left alone. I know men who would tell you she was a lazy piece of shit because if she had wanted too, she would have found the time... she simply didnt want too and she is extremely disobedient. See how that works? I agree that a slave is worth her weight in gold... but only to a man who is willing to pay that price. To the man who does.. she is a true slave... to the man who doesnt, she is worthless. (the she can just as easily be a he, folks) And, frankly, insisting that all slaves want to be "pigluts" is down right insulting.

tazzygirl -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 6:04:19 AM)
quote: You can go research it for yourself, have fun. 95% of adults have bowel movements between three and 21 times per week. The entire range -- even just three bowel movements a week -- is normal. What you cited it not "average" Don't ignore the urge to go. Peristalsis of the bowel -- the movements that trigger a bowel movement -- come and go. If you ignore this urge, you may lose the opportunity. The longer stool stays in the bowel, the harder it gets as more water is reabsorbed, and the more difficult it is to expel. The urge to defecate also increases after mealtime, so take advantage of your body's signals. Increasing water intake doesnt fix the problem once its started. It does assist to prevent the problem from beginning. People often go to Drs complaining of passing "ribbons" of stool, which means its passing around a blockage. Any blockage, no matter how many web sites you hit, is always a problem. People who pass these ribbons also believe they are not constipated. It can literally look like ribbons, or come out as diarrhea, making the person believe they are not constipated when they really are. Now, I will ask you the same question you asked to LL. Are you a physician? Are you medically trained to know the differences? Can you show me one source, a medical source, that enforces your insistance that forced constipation will do no harm? I looked, I cannot find a single one. And as others will tell you, I am very good when it comes to research. The clinical definition of constipation is having any two of the following symptoms for at least 12 weeks—not always consecutive—in the previous 12 months: straining during bowel movements lumpy or hard stool sensation of incomplete evacuation sensation of anorectal blockage/obstruction fewer than three bowel movements per week This is why I call it forced constipation. While this may be a kink you both enjoy consensually, telling others this is not harmful would be a worrying comment coming from anyone with medical training. Someone reading this thread, with no medical training, sees you spouting off about your medical training and insisting this is a good thing.. and problems begin for the slave that person is controlling. They would have no knowledge of how this could affect, or be affected, by medications or desease processes. That person would be stupid to take your work as fact. And, honestly, as a medically trained person, you are stupid for presenting it as such. quote: I choose standards so I have a means of evaluating things in relation to them. If you don't set a standard somewhere, you don't know where you really are. You might think you do, but until you measure yourself against a standard, you don't really know. Standards in this case are your standards, and subject to the evaluation of anyone when you post them to a message board. Standards often change within a community. By saying your standards are the "standards" with which to measure against, how do you know your standards are the correct ones? They may be for you, based upon your own standards, but what if your standards are faulty? quote: I wish you would refrain from stating your OPINION that not allowing a slave to defecate for 3 or 4 days is harmful, as if it were fact. Much of what you have posted is opinion... your opinion, supported by nit picking through multiple articles of fact. When presented as a whole, its hard to refute. when its cherry picked, it no longer is entitled to be called... fact... it then becomes YOUR fact... which can easily be someone elses fiction. I look forward to seeing your medical credentials.

SimplyMichael -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 6:11:23 AM)
Boy did this thread go to shit.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 6:12:10 AM)
+10 for tazzy

tazzygirl -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 6:13:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Boy did this thread go to shit. Shitting is no laughing matter. [;)]

SimplyMichael -> RE: How much can a Master actually change a slave? (11/29/2011 6:22:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael Boy did this thread go to shit. Shitting is no laughing matter. [;)] Nope but you have to grunt more

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