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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 6:12:18 AM   
kalikshama


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http://www.lasvegasweekly.com/news/2011/nov/09/did-health-district-go-too-far-regulate-farm--tabl/

I talked about the Quail Hollow incident with Susan LaBay, an environmental health supervisor with the district. She conceded the department hasn’t inspected an event on a farm like this, but said, “We have to apply the law equally.”

She said if there had been an incident of food-borne illness at the event, we’d be asking different questions, like, where were the regulators?

I, for one, wouldn’t be asking that. If some gourmands go out to a farm and someone gets food poisoning, I’m pretty sure I know what the public reaction—including my own—would be: Too bad. You knew what you were getting yourself into. And that’s that.

Strangely enough, LaBay acknowledged that farm-to-table meals will often be safer than a store-bought one, because fewer hands touching the food usually makes for a safer meal. And she said she’s sympathetic to the idea of legislation that would help farmers host these events while still complying with the law. The problem is that the regulations were written for the era of industrial food production and often don’t allow for freshly butchered meat, raw milk and homemade items like pickles.

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 6:30:50 AM   
kalikshama


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I moved to a semi-rural area this summer and discover a new farm stand each month. One is even self-serve - you weigh your own items and put the money in a drop box. I make sure to keep small bills and change on hand. I'm really delighted with the quality of the produce.

My mother and grandfather have/had gardens, and I always knew to pass on supermarket tomatoes and peaches in favor of local produce.

I've become more interested in our nation's food supply since becoming ill in 1999 and paying more attention to what I put in my body. I've been heavily influenced by the books "The Omnivore's Dilemma" and "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" and the movie "Food, Inc."

Here's a link to help people find local farmers. (I got three pages of results near me and can't wait to check them out.)

http://www.localharvest.org/

The best organic food is what's grown closest to you. Use our website to find farmers' markets, family farms, and other sources of sustainably grown food in your area, where you can buy produce, grass-fed meats, and many other goodies.

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 6:34:22 AM   
gungadin09


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Check out Jeffrey Steingarden: The Man Who Ate Everything /It Must Have Been Something I Ate.

pam


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Profile   Post #: 143
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 6:40:11 AM   
kalikshama


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A classic example of what's wrong with our industrial food system. (And if you don't care about the tomatoes, what about the workers?!?)

How the modern day tomato came to be

In the sultry summer heat, there are few flavors more welcome than that of a burstingly fresh, sloppy, sweet, tangy, locally grown tomato. In the winter, though, their grocery store equivalent is barely recognizable as the same fruit. They're hard, uniformly round and almost inevitably taste-free.

They're also mostly trucked in from Florida, where they're grown in some challenging agricultural conditions, and where the industry has come under scrutiny for their labor practices.

Barry Estabrook, author of 'Tomatoland: How Modern Industrial Agriculture Destroyed Our Most Alluring Fruit' spoke with Eatocracy about this came to be.

Eatocracy: How did you become invested in telling the story of the modern day tomato?

Estabrook: I became interested in tomatoes when I was in fact attacked by a group of tomatoes. I was driving down an interstate highway in Southwestern Florida and come up behind what I thought at first was a gravel truck. As I got closer, I saw what I took for Granny Smith apples - and I thought, "Those don't grow in Florida." When I got really close, I saw it was full of bright green tomatoes. No pink - just green.

I was mesmerized, and then the truck hit a bump. Three tomatoes came flying off and nearly went through my windshield. I noticed that they hit the pavement on I-75, bounced and then rolled into the ditch.

They didn't shatter, they didn't splatter; they stayed intact. I thought, "My God! What have they done to this wonderful fruit?"

Eatocracy: Are these the same round, red tomatoes that we see in grocery stores?

Estabrook: Winter tomatoes that we get in our grocery stores and in fast food places are picked when they're bright green. Any hint of coloration is treasonous in a Florida tomato field in the winter. The industry says they're "mature green" and supposedly might develop flavor, but there's no way the pickers can tell the difference between mature and immature.

These green tomatoes are taken back to a warehouse, packed in boxes, which are stacked on pallets and moved into storage areas where they're exposed to ethylene gas. The gas forces the tomatoes to turn the right color; it doesn't ripen them.

Eatocracy: Does this account for the lack of flavor in the modern day tomato?

Estabrook: There are two factors at work here. The first is that the tomatoes are picked when they're immature and no matter what you do, an immature tomato will never get any taste; though it might look alluring.

The second problem with industrial tomatoes is that for the last fifty years, they've been bred for one thing only, and that's yield. One farmer told me, "I get paid per pound. I don't get paid a cent for taste." Sadly, he was right.

Eatocracy: Why are consumers willing to put up with this?

Estabrook: I came across study after study that showed that tomatoes rank at or near the bottom of consumers' satisfaction lists. All I can guess is that grocery store tomatoes are food porn - in the literal sense. It looks pretty, it triggers memories, but it certainly doesn't deliver.

Eatocracy: What are the challenges to growing tomatoes in a climate like Florida?

Estabrook: I quickly learned that from a botanical and horticultural point of view, you would have to be a fool to try to grow tomatoes commercially in a place like Florida.

The main problem is that tomatoes' ancestors come from desert areas. They're adapted to extremely dry, low-humidity areas. That's why Southern Italy and parts of California are so good for tomatoes; it doesn't rain all summer. Florida is notoriously humid, which is just perfect conditions for all of the funguses, rusts, blights, insects and pests that destroy tomatoes.

That's why they have to use 110 different chemicals, fertilizers, fungicides and herbicides to even get a crop. Florida and California grow about the same amount of tomatoes. Florida uses eight times to get the same agricultural product.

The second problem with Florida is - I'm not even going to call it soil, because it isn't. Florida tomatoes are grown in sand. Just like the sand on Daytona Beach, it's great to wiggle your toes in, but it contains zero nutrients. None.

So they have to essentially pump in all the chemical food that the plant is going to need for its lifetime. Then they seal the row in plastic and hope they'll get a crop.

Eatocracy: Then what's the rationale behind growing tomatoes in Florida?

Estabrook: It has nothing to do with horticulture and everything to do with marketing. Florida is a day and a half or two days semi-trailer load from Chicago, New York City, Philadelphia - from two thirds of the country. And in the wintertime, they can get a crop.

That's the reason they're grown there. It’s the antithesis of local and seasonal.

Eatocracy: How do these tomatoes physically get from the field to the plate?

Estabrook: They've not invented a machine that can pick a tomato that's going to be sliced and eaten fresh. Canning tomatoes can be picked by machine; they may as well be apples and oranges. People have to do pick these by hand, and they're paid on a piece basis, by bucket of tomatoes.

You see these people out in the field, with bushel-basket sized buckets between their legs. It looks like one of those cartoon dogs digging, except that instead of dirt coming up, it's tomatoes. Their hands are pulling and pulling and pulling until they fill a bucket, which they run over to a nearby truck and empty it.

Eatocracy: Who are the workers?

Estabrook: They are primarily people from Southern Mexico, Northern Central America, Guatemala. United Farm Workers estimate that 70 percent of all farm workers in this country, not just tomato pickers, are undocumented immigrants.

Eatocracy: What are their working conditions like?

Estabrook: Slavery is what is happening. There is no way to gloss it. You can't say "slavery-like." You can't say "near-slavery." "Human trafficking" doesn't even do it credit. Here are some things that are in court records; it's all been proven.

People are being bought and sold like chattels. People are locked and shackled in chains at night in order to prevent them from escaping. People are being beaten severely if they're too tired to work, too sick to work or don't want to work hard enough. People are beaten even more severely or murdered if they try to escape. They receive little or no pay for their efforts.

That, to me, is slavery. It's like 1850, not 2011.

Eatocracy: How does a worker end up in this situation?

Estabrook: First of all, there have been 1,200 slaves freed in seven separate prosecutions in Florida in the last 15 years. The way that they get into slavery is often a slippery slope.

I talked to one guy who'd just crossed the border and hit the town of Immokalee, Florida. He was homeless and staying at a mission. He was standing outside and a guy pulled up in a pickup truck and said, "Hey, want work? I'll pay you?" and he named a price that was twice the going rate."

The man told him, "My mother cooks for the crew, and we'll just deduct that from your check, and you can even stay on my property; I've got some buildings. We'll just take that from your check."

This all sounded good, but you know what happens. Even though he picked enough tomatoes to supposedly get out of debt to his boss, he was never told that.

Everything cost money. It even cost him $5 to hose himself off with a backyard hose every day. There was plenty of liquor supplied at a very high price. He was kept enslaved for two and a half years before he broke out.

Eatocracy: How did he say he broke free?

Estabrook: This is telltale of the conditions they live under. He and three or four other slaves had been locked for the night in the back of the produce truck that was going to go out in the fields the next day. There was no toilet or running water.

As dawn broke, they noticed that there was a little gap between the rivets. He got on the shoulders of another man and they punched and kicked their way through the roof. He slid down the side of the truck and got a ladder so they rest of them could crawl out and run to safety.

Eatocracy: Have there been any health concerns for the workers?

Estabrook: Florida tomatoes can be sprayed with more than 100 different fungicides, pesticides and herbicides. Some of them are what the Environmental Protection Agency calls "acutely toxic" - which is a nice way of saying they can kill you. The containers come with skulls and crossbones.

I talked to three or four dozen tomato workers during the course of my research and I'd ask them if they'd ever been sprayed. It was like asking them if they put their pants on one leg at a time. They'd say, "Of course! It happens every day." It's illegal, but it happens. Florida tomatoes have to be sprayed regularly or they'll die because of all the insects and diseases there.

Most workers now are first generation Hispanic, so they know there have been short term effects.

Eatocracy: Have there been more long-term cases studied?

Estabrook: Years ago, the workers were African American, and they didn't migrate - they stayed put.

Read more: http://eatocracy.cnn.com/2011/09/08/how-the-modern-day-tomato-came-to-be/

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 6:43:19 AM   
kalikshama


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Thanks! I placed it on hold from my library.

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 8:39:58 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

You are right, T. So who dies?


Luck of the draw.

T^T

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 8:41:13 AM   
Termyn8or


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quote:

A classic example of what's wrong with our..............


And I thought Florida was an abolishonist state. Silly me.

T^T

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 8:51:40 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

You are right, T. So who dies?


Luck of the draw.

T^T


Seriously. We drop the FDA, we drop the Health Departments too. No more inspections. Everything simplified.

How long do you think it would take before people started dying?

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Profile   Post #: 148
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 9:48:45 AM   
kalikshama


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I'm pro regulation for industrial food. Why less so for small family farms? I haven't fully developed this idea but probably because I think Nature provides checks and balances and these farmers are smart enough to learn from them, unlike industrial food producers, whose solution to the issue of fecal matter is not better hygiene but irradiation.

Industrial vs. Family Farms Comparison

Have you ever asked yourself “why is sustainable agriculture is so much better than industrial agriculture?” The table below should give you a quick and easy comparison of the two types of production methods and the benefit of sustainable meat production should be clear.








< Message edited by kalikshama -- 11/27/2011 9:51:20 AM >

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 9:55:37 AM   
tazzygirl


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Two different standards? Where is the cut off point between industrialized and small?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 150
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:10:46 AM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

You are right, T. So who dies?


Luck of the draw.

T^T


Seriously. We drop the FDA, we drop the Health Departments too. No more inspections. Everything simplified.

How long do you think it would take before people started dying?


The fast food industry already has higher standard levels than the FDA does, WITHOUT government regulation forcing them into to that.
In fact, most industries have higher regulations that the FDA does... school lunches are a notable exception.

We don't need government involvement to create health inspections, there are several example of how industries have started doing quality control inspections; independent from the government, before the government even required it, and BETTER than any system the government has been about to come up with so far.
The ISO standards are a great example of it.

Dropping the FDA and the Health Department will not cause standards to go down, the free market has time and time again proven to adhere to stricter standards than the government, if left alone.

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:21:13 AM   
kalikshama


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I put the "not fully developed" caveat in especially for you!

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RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:26:09 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

I put the "not fully developed" caveat in especially for you!


smooches!

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 153
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:30:19 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The fast food industry already has higher standard levels than the FDA does, WITHOUT government regulation forcing them into to that.
In fact, most industries have higher regulations that the FDA does... school lunches are a notable exception.


And the reason behind that have more to do with lawsuits than a desire to provide a better product. If you exceed the FDA standards, you look much better in a court room.

quote:

Dropping the FDA and the Health Department will not cause standards to go down, the free market has time and time again proven to adhere to stricter standards than the government, if left alone.


If you drop the FDA, then there are no standards. No standards means a much harder time proving any liability in a court.

There would be no incentive to keep up any standards.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:42:29 AM   
Ishtarr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The fast food industry already has higher standard levels than the FDA does, WITHOUT government regulation forcing them into to that.
In fact, most industries have higher regulations that the FDA does... school lunches are a notable exception.


And the reason behind that have more to do with lawsuits than a desire to provide a better product. If you exceed the FDA standards, you look much better in a court room.



Yes, of course.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Dropping the FDA and the Health Department will not cause standards to go down, the free market has time and time again proven to adhere to stricter standards than the government, if left alone.


If you drop the FDA, then there are no standards. No standards means a much harder time proving any liability in a court.

There would be no incentive to keep up any standards.


Not true.
There are several industries that are completely self-regulating and which had standards long before, completely independent and much higher than standards set from the government.
Independent standard certification institutes ALWASY have higher standards than the government, even if they predate the government standard agency.
Regulations aren't necessary to make companies want to associate with these standards, consumer pressure, and liability is enough to accomplish that.

The idea that something like the FDA is needed in government control to maintain decent standards is just false.
Experience has proven that non-government regulation quality control companies do a better job than the government bureau ever does.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 11/27/2011 10:43:52 AM >


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Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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Profile   Post #: 155
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 10:45:42 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Regulations aren't necessary to make companies want to associate with these standards, consumer pressure, and liability is enough to accomplish that.


What is the liability based upon? Standards.

quote:

The idea that something like the FDA is needed in government control to maintain decent standards is just false.
Experience has proven that non-government regulation quality control companies do a better job than the government bureau ever does.


Please list a few and we can discuss.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 156
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:10:35 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The idea that something like the FDA is needed in government control to maintain decent standards is just false.
Experience has proven that non-government regulation quality control companies do a better job than the government bureau ever does.


Please list a few and we can discuss.


BSI
ISO
ANSI
IEC
ASTM
NEC
ICS
IHC
IEST
DIN
CEN

ISO and BSI obviously being the two most important ones. Though Americans nationally will be more likely to deal with ANSI than ISO.
All these are government independent. Most of these predate government standards. A lot of these are -unlike government standards- internationally recognized. All of these far exceed government standards.
In fact, it's not at all uncommon for government standards to be a lower version BASED on the standards set by these organizations.
FAA standards are a good example of that. FAA chart standards where literally taken from Jeppesen standards. And Jeppesen chart standards to this day still far exceed the FAA's. Mainly because the FAA is still tagging behind Jeppesen and adapting their standards long AFTER Jeppesen has already considered them to be the new minimums.
I can guarantee you that international trade wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for organizations like ISO.
If it was left to government regulation, it would be an absolute catastrophe.

< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 11/27/2011 11:28:30 AM >


_____________________________


Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

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Profile   Post #: 157
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:24:28 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
We don't need government involvement to create health inspections, there are several example of how industries have started doing quality control inspections; independent from the government, before the government even required it, and BETTER than any system the government has been about to come up with so far.

Can you name any private food inspection regime that was started before the government required inspection of the same food?


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Profile   Post #: 158
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:33:37 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The idea that something like the FDA is needed in government control to maintain decent standards is just false.
Experience has proven that non-government regulation quality control companies do a better job than the government bureau ever does.


Please list a few and we can discuss.


BSI
ISO
ANSI
IEC
ASTM
NEC
ICS
IHC
IEST
DIN
CEN

ISO and BSI obviously being the two most important ones. Though Americans nationally will be more likely to deal with ANSI than ISO.
All these are government independent. Most of these predate government standards. A lot of these are -unlike government standards- internationally recognized. All of these far exceed government standards.
In fact, it's not at all uncommon for government standards to be a lower version BASED on the standards set by these organizations.
FAA standards are a good example of that. FAA chart standards where literally taken from Jeppesen standards. And Jeppesen chart standards to this day still far exceed the FAA's. Mainly because the FAA is still tagging behind Jeppesen and adapting their standards long AFTER Jeppesen has already considered them to be the new minimums.
I can guarantee you that international trade wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for organizations like ISO.
If it was left to government regulation, it would be an absolute catastrophe.

None of those groups inspect food or publish food inspection standards.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:38:23 AM   
tazzygirl


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The BSI is a UK based organization that began in 1901.
The ISO 1947.
ANSI 1918

FDA 1906.

quote:

ISO and BSI obviously being the two most important ones. Though Americans nationally will be more likely to deal with ANSI than ISO.
All these are government independent. Most of these predate government standards. A lot of these are -unlike government standards- internationally recognized. All of these far exceed government standards.
In fact, it's not at all uncommon for government standards to be a lower version BASED on the standards set by these organizations.



The only one that predates the FDA is the BSI, which had a hand in creating ISO and CEN. And those were not global before the FDA was created.

quote:

I can guarantee you that international trade wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for organizations like ISO.
If it was left to government regulation, it would be an absolute catastrophe.


I could have sworn we were discussing the US market.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 160
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