RE: Food safety ?

Collarspace Discussion Forums

Home Login Search

RE: Food safety ?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Food safety ?

Page: << < prev 5 6 7 8 [9]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:41:34 AM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The idea that something like the FDA is needed in government control to maintain decent standards is just false.
Experience has proven that non-government regulation quality control companies do a better job than the government bureau ever does.

Please list a few and we can discuss.

BSI
ISO
ANSI
IEC
ASTM
NEC
ICS
IHC
IEST
DIN
CEN

ISO and BSI obviously being the two most important ones. Though Americans nationally will be more likely to deal with ANSI than ISO.
All these are government independent. Most of these predate government standards. A lot of these are -unlike government standards- internationally recognized. All of these far exceed government standards.
In fact, it's not at all uncommon for government standards to be a lower version BASED on the standards set by these organizations.
FAA standards are a good example of that. FAA chart standards where literally taken from Jeppesen standards. And Jeppesen chart standards to this day still far exceed the FAA's. Mainly because the FAA is still tagging behind Jeppesen and adapting their standards long AFTER Jeppesen has already considered them to be the new minimums.
I can guarantee you that international trade wouldn't be what it is today if it wasn't for organizations like ISO.
If it was left to government regulation, it would be an absolute catastrophe.

You left out the one in most common use and probably the most successful..UL.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Profile

Post #: 161

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 11:42:01 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Process

Though ANSI itself does not develop standards, the Institute oversees the development and use of standards by accrediting the procedures of standards developing organizations. ANSI accreditation signifies that the procedures used by standards developing organizations meet the Institute's requirements for openness, balance, consensus, and due process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_National_Standard

If they dont develop standards....

quote:

Not true.
There are several industries that are completely self-regulating and which had standards long before, completely independent and much higher than standards set from the government.

Where did their standards come from?

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 11/27/2011 11:47:44 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to DomKen)

Profile

Post #: 162

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 12:48:01 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Where did their standards come from?"

I missed a page but I like that question. Mostly from industry. Just like scientists come up with the gram/meter/second system, if that's the right word for it. I think it would be fair to say the experts in the field define the units and that government(s) name them. For example Farentheit was named that because it was the guy's name. But when Celsius came out it was called centigrade. Not sure how the name actually got changed but I suspect something akin to an act of congress. The concept of Ohm's law was around before the units were all named, but there was Alessander(?) Volta, Mr. Ohm and [James ?} Watt. I'm not looking it up right now because that is not the point. You might wonder why Roentgens aren't called Curies for example but an old encyclopedia could shed light on that.

There must be standards, that's a given. The floor in your house has to be stronng enough not to fall in. The roof as well, but as some have found, the roof standards aren't what they used to be and roofers can fall through. Seriously stupid mentality has invaded the housing industry, all in persuit of the almighty buck. Laminated OSB floor joists are allowed, which I think is ridiculous. But it meets the standards. Now the standards are quite lax, and it's caveat emptor when it comes to new houses. The regulations didn't do a friend of mine any good when her house literally fell apart, nor did regulations prevent the Jack in the box incident.

How about Jack in the box ? So now meat must be cooked to a certain temerature before bieng served eh ? Well last time I went out for a surf n turf I gave specific instructions on how to cook the steak - that I want it burnt on the outside and cold in the middle. They complied, was that illegal ? Or are the rules to be applied selectively ?

So this comes down to to whom the law applies. A parrot answer would be everyone but that is simply not so. Are building codes enforcable on kids' treehouses, or "forts" ? Well they can't have lemonade stands anymore.

It's a matter of specifically to whom the standards apply. For example you don't need a liquor license to have a keg party. I've been to many of them and believe me there was no liquor license.

Years ago My buddy and I practically rebuilt a very large house. The whole place was gutted, moved a bathroom, modified the HVAC system, updated a bunch od wiring, cut in new windows. Not one permit or inspection involved. We were trusted to do the job right and we did. The customer knew straight up that's how it would be but we have a good reputation. We could still be doing this kind of work but now everyone we know has new or new enough everything. Now if we were to advertise...........

How do you know if someone is going to do the job right ? You don't. I have seen the most licensed up, certified, bonded, insured people do some really terrible shit, and that includes wiring. Know what the difference is ? They are insured against their fuckups and I ain't. Sue me I lose my shit. Sue them some company in NYC cuts a check.

This is a trend towards socuialism that is very insidious, and I know not many are going to agree. Most people are biased towards socialism because they're used to it. Your brain adjusts, if you sit in a blue room long enough you cease noticing the color. Walk into a red room and then you notice. Living before social security was probably a <SARC>blast</SARC>. But that was freedom.

Socialism and freedom cannot coexist in their pure forms, at all. So what we have is a balance between individualism and collectivism. Different balances of the two suit different people, for a myriad of reasons.

So in my view, this is how it should be. If this was a one time thing, they should just leave it alone. If people got sick it would be a moot point. They would not come back. If it starts to be an annual thing and the people actually advertise, that's another thing.

They must have advertised somewhere or the government would've never known about it. Of course maybe we should draw the line at the point when they put up a sign. Then we can roll this into a first amendment issue and really make a bunch of lawyers rich.

And then there's this time I found a four inch framing nail in a burrito from Taco Bell. No shit. It obviously didn't go through the meat grinder, so it was post that. For them to prepare the burrito and not notice this means they must have a huge vat going, who knows what's been falling in it ? Bugs n shit. You don't know anywhere, even at the finest restaurants.

So we traded our freedom to have lemonade stands for the safety of "good" food.

We have neither.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/27/2011 12:56:28 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 163

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 12:56:16 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

How about Jack in the box ? So now meat must be cooked to a certain temerature before bieng served eh ? Well last time I went out fo a surf n turf I gave specific instructions on how to cook the steak - that I want it burnt on the outside and cold in the middle. They complied, was that illegal ? Or are the rules to be applied selectively ?

A steak isnt the same as ground meat. Any restaurant that serves under cooked foods must have that little disclaimer somewhere that all customers can see it.

quote:

It's a matter of specifically to whom the standards apply. For example you don't need a liquor license to have a keg party. I've been to many of them and believe me there was no liquor license.

Depending on the state, you dont need one to brown bag either. You only need it if you sell.

quote:

Years ago My buddy and I practically rebuilt a very large house. The whole place was gutted, moved a bathroom, modified the VAC system, updated a bunch od wiring, cut in new windows. Not one permit or inspection involved. We were trusted to do the job right and we did. The customer knew stright up that's how it would be but we have a good reputation. We could still be doing this kind of work but now everyopne we know has new or new enough everything. Now if we were to advertise...........

Or if the house catches on fire and the insurance company refuses to pay based upon the lack of codes....

quote:

How do you know if someone is going to do the job right ? You don't. I have seen the most licensed up, certified, bonded, insured people do some really terrible shit, and that includes wiring. Know what the difference is ? They are insured against their fuckups and I ain't. Sue me I lose my shit. Sue them some company in NYC cuts a check.

You would also go to jail

quote:

So in my view, this is how it should be. If this was a one time thing, they should just leave it alone. If people got sick it would be a moot point. They would not comke back. If it starts to be an annual thing and the people actually advertise, that's another thing.

The problem with your view is that you are railing against State's rights. Something I thought you were all for.. less federal government.

quote:

And then there's this time I found a four inch framing nail in a burrito from Taco Bell. No shit. It obviously didn't go through the meat grinder, so it was post that. For them to prepare the burrito and not notice this means they must have a huge vat going, who knows what's been falling in it ? Bugs n shit. You don't know anywhere, even at the finest restaurants.

No, you dont know.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 164

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 1:27:35 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

I don't think you ae disagreeing all that much.

"A steak isnt the same as ground meat. Any restaurant that serves under cooked foods must have that little disclaimer somewhere that all customers can see it. "

I believe I have seen notices like that. I understand the difference and also due to the way that nasty strain of E. Coli. gets on the meat, as long as you singe a steak on the outside really well that takes car of that. However when the meat is ground, the inside can be on the outside and vice versa. So if you want rre burgers you should gring the meat yourself, after trimming it yourself. However I do decide to take that risk once in a while.

"Depending on the state, you dont need one to brown bag either. You only need it if you sell."

This is exactly what I am talking about. The host buys a keg (or two, or three....) and it's five or ten bucks to go. Bunch of friends, word of mouth. All the government knows is when the music starts (some have bands). They come they see a binch of people drinking and setup a post to catch the drunk drivers at three in the morning. Maybe that's why they let shit like that go, they do get something out of it, a bunch of fine money. But the point is, what about the host ? I don't need a permit of any kind to have a party on my property no matter what. Or is that now in dispute ? How many of MY rights are others willing to trade away ?

"Or if the house catches on fire and the insurance company refuses to pay based upon the lack of codes.... "

They don't do that in the real world. First of all it's too hard to prove. Second of all if the exclusion isn't in the policy specifically it doesn't matter. The reasons are numerous. Very few houses sold are new, that means nobody knows what happened to them before. In localities that require a pre sale inspection by the city, that might subrogate the city if they didn't catch some, or just those "certified" home inspectors people like to overpay. You are better off having me inspect a house you want to buy than some. Actually what I do usually exceeds code significantly.

"You would also go to jail "

That is absolutely not true.

"The problem with your view is that you are railing against State's rights. Something I thought you were all for.. less federal government. "

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. First of all these plaintiffs were going against state "law", not federal law. IMO the job of the federal court would be to uphold the plaintiff's rights against the application of a state law. That is how it should have went, however only a temporary estoppment for now, not actually overturning the law, but to force the state to define it's applicability. What I said was also that this paricular judge didn't want to be the one to do it.

For the record I am for less government at all levels. What's more intent is supposedly considered but that's bullshit. What were they going to make on one big dinner anyway ? They wanted to propogate the idea of farming for yourself rather than buying everything from the "Man". To be self sufficient, and that's something the government REALLY hates.

If you don't see this society on a trend toward creating dependency, you need to open your eyes.

"No, you dont know. "

And by giving up freedom letting them regulate more, we gained WHAT ?

More later.

T^T

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 165

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 1:41:59 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

"Or if the house catches on fire and the insurance company refuses to pay based upon the lack of codes.... "

They don't do that in the real world. First of all it's too hard to prove. Second of all if the exclusion isn't in the policy specifically it doesn't matter. The reasons are numerous. Very few houses sold are new, that means nobody knows what happened to them before. In localities that require a pre sale inspection by the city, that might subrogate the city if they didn't catch some, or just those "certified" home inspectors people like to overpay. You are better off having me inspect a house you want to buy than some. Actually what I do usually exceeds code significantly.

Its not hard to prove.

And still you are working to "code".

Not all homes are wired then sold.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 166

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 1:47:59 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

You left out the one in most common use and probably the most successful..UL.

Truth, especially if you are in the insurance biz.

The awesome power of the government notwithstanding, what if someone sells something that is not UL listed ? Now on this, I don't know - is there a law that everything that plugs into the wall must be UL listed ? Or what, it can't be sold ? Or is it that retailers and even manufacturers would rather have it around to afford them some indemnity ? It may be a combination of both.

And you mentioned ISO, what are they in about 9006 now ? Was last I heard I think. You should love that shit. Not only are the methods strictly controlled to be compliant, every fucking blade of grass on company property must conform. It entails more than just protecting from liabibity due to adhering to standards, it's tentacles go into accounting, and therefore equipment.

I ran across this in my field. A guy wanted to modify a piece of companyu equipment. He knew what he was doing and there was no safety issue at all. The modification would have increased productivity but he found he couldn't do it. It was company property and to do it there would have to have been studies made on how it would impact the value of the equipment. That's because ISO 9000 whatever has nothing to do with safety or anyhitng, it all to do with money.

And think of UL, Underwriter's labs. (at least I can spell it). We know what the fuck underwriters are - the people who have to write a check in case shit happens. they have a vested interest in having shit not happen.

T^T

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Profile

Post #: 167

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 1:54:17 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Returning to the legality issue.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 168

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 2:01:02 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Its not hard to prove.

And still you are working to "code".

Not all homes are wired then sold.

Huh ? The first line. It would be impossible to prove that something I did wiring a house caused a fire or electrocution. That's because I know what I am doing. I realize that this is not true of everyone. I have been through three electricians in the blood family and learned it the right way. If you EVER have any doubts I welcome you to watch and take video of everything I do. Some people don't like that. I don't care, in fact next time I get into the remodeling gam I will at least take a series of photos. The customer can have copies but those are for my records, in case shit............

Second line. I meet or exceed code. Period. I can also see cases where code is not good enough and I will do it right, if that requires a heavier guage wire or anything like that. When I wire your house your lights don't dim or anything when you kick on something that pulls alot of current. You don't get twenty volts on the neutral. You don't get ground loop current that makes noise in your stereo. You don't get that wierd unexplainable interference on certain channels. I mean I REALLY know what I am doing.

Third line; absolutley. That's why a good inspection is a good thing. The government should not mandate it, people should have the [un]common sense to either inspect it themselves if they know what they're doing, or have it inspected.

But who do you trust ?

T^T

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 169

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 2:07:27 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Huh ? The first line. It would be impossible to prove that something I did wiring a house caused a fire or electrocution.

Coming from a family of construction workers... its not hard to prove.

quote:

Second line. I meet or exceed code. Period. I can also see cases where code is not good enough and I will do it right, if that requires a heavier guage wire or anything like that. When I wire your house your lights don't dim or anything when you kick on something that pulls alot of current. You don't get twenty volts on the neutral. You don't get ground loop current that makes noise in your stereo. You don't get that wierd unexplainable interference on certain channels. I mean I REALLY know what I am doing.

And without those codes, what would happen? Why exceed them?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 170

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 2:09:47 PM

JstAnotherSub

Posts: 6174
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

You are right, T. So who dies?

Luck of the draw.

T^T

Seriously. We drop the FDA, we drop the Health Departments too. No more inspections. Everything simplified.

How long do you think it would take before people started dying?

The fast food industry already has higher standard levels than the FDA does, WITHOUT government regulation forcing them into to that.
In fact, most industries have higher regulations that the FDA does... school lunches are a notable exception.

We don't need government involvement to create health inspections, there are several example of how industries have started doing quality control inspections; independent from the government, before the government even required it, and BETTER than any system the government has been about to come up with so far.
The ISO standards are a great example of it.

Dropping the FDA and the Health Department will not cause standards to go down, the free market has time and time again proven to adhere to stricter standards than the government, if left alone.

Wrong.

_____________________________

yep

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Profile

Post #: 171

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 3:48:45 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Coming from a family of construction workers... its not hard to prove.

Asssuming it happens.

"Why exceed them?"

Sometimes it is necessary. The code only deals wih safety, not the convenience or comfort of the ultimate user or customer. Is that not apparent ?

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/27/2011 3:51:00 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 172

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 3:55:00 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

quote:

Dropping the FDA and the Health Department will not cause standards to go down, the free market has time and time again proven to adhere to stricter standards than the government, if left alone.

That may have been true in the past before businesses were granted personhood (doubt it), but now they have all converted to Almightybuckism and would serve you rusty nuts and bolts with battery acid if they could get away with it.

T^T

(in reply to Ishtarr)

Profile

Post #: 173

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 3:55:56 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

quote:

Coming from a family of construction workers... its not hard to prove.

Asssuming it happens.

"Why exceed them?"

Sometimes it is necessary. The code only deals wih safety, not the convenience or comfort of the ultimate user or customer. Is that not apparent ?

T^T

And if they werent there? If there were no codes?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 174

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 5:20:44 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"And if they werent there? If there were no codes?"

Well maybe I am wierd in that respect. I would do the job the same way essentially. When you do this you know, or are supposed to, that your work better be good or people could burn to death or get zapped. You purport yourself to know WTF you are doing, with or without certifications, you better do it right.

It's called a work ethic. If I pick up a piece of pizza on the floor and throw it back on the plate that is unethical. If I cheat on a wiring job, whether something happens or not, that is unethical. If I disable a safety mechanism on anything and leave it that way, that is unethical.

Work ethics have nothing to do with morals to me. The work ethic is something you can use for getting new business. "Call these people, I wired their hoiuse, and notice that they are alive and have not burned to death". That's why I interview businesses before I go to work for them. If I worked for a bunch of places that all went out of business, that isn't much of a selling point on my resume' is it ? Not that I write resumes' but you know what I mean.

And when it comes to application of the regulations - I have an Uncle and a cousin in the elite local electrician's union. When inspection time comes around, they have these stickers. If their union sticker is on the box at the house, the inspector passes it summaruily, no question. Each member of that union is also a qualified inspector even if he doesn't have that job. None of them will put a sticker on a job that isn't 100%. that's work ethic.

As we lose that pride in workmanship, workmanship is going to require alot more policing as long as people do not undestand the basics of daily life. Car breaks down, maybe my little sister calls me decades ago - "It's getting gas and spark, WTF else is there" shit like that. Now it's hard to find out if a cunt's car is cranking but not starting or if it does nothing when you turn the key. People are extremely stupid and I guiess do need protection, or actually don't. Letum fucking die if thery are too stupid.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 11/27/2011 5:25:58 PM >

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 175

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 5:22:57 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

And you believe everyone has that same work ethic?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Profile

Post #: 176

RE: Food safety ? - 11/27/2011 5:28:44 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"And you believe everyone has that same work ethic?"

This is indeed the problem, but what you must realize is that those licenses or certs., bonding or any of that shit, even the "union label", none of them guarantee anything at all.

So all this bullshit just cripples the little Man. That's OK though, it will alll come out in the wash.

T^T

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Profile

Post #: 177