RE: Amish Jailed (Full Version)

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Clickofheels -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:11:02 AM)

(Wonders if anyone realizes that the Amish do not utilize ANY forms of monetary, governmental assistance?
ie. get no SSI benefits, no Medicare benefits, no Disability benefits, NO WELFARE, no Housing Assistance, no Aid to Dependent Children, no Aid to the Elderly, etc.)

They are TOTALLY SELF-SUPPORTIVE of, and within their own communities!

But of course, that's what egotistical people do. (winks)



tazzygirl -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:11:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Clickofheels

(Wonders if anyone realizes that the Amish do not utilize ANY forms of monetary, governmental assistance?
ie. get no SSI benefits, no Medicare benefits, no Disability benefits, NO WELFARE, no Housing Assistance, no Aid to Dependent Children, no Aid to the Elderly, etc.)

They are TOTALLY SELF-SUPPORTIVE of, and within their own communities!

But of course, that's what egotistical people do. (winks)


What does any of that have to do with the subject?



Moonhead -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:13:12 AM)

Really?
So these idiots who've just been sent down aren't spending ten days being fed and housed at the taxpayer's expense, then?



Musicmystery -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:14:25 AM)

quote:

But of course, that's what egotistical people do. (winks)


Again, world of difference between a group's philosophy and an individual.

Nor is a single act of pride a characterization of "egotistical," neither for the person nor the community.

If you believe no one Amish is ever capable of any act of pride or ego ever, how nice for you.

If you think believing something about one person of one group, or even a few, constitutes a judgment about the group, you've a lot to learn about both logic and misreading communication.



Clickofheels -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:15:16 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

But as I said, I always enjoy finding out just how educated people are about the Amish.


In fairness, your painting them all as uniform is as stereotypical and unrealistic.

People are people. They are individuals, even among a cohesive group.




They do not believe in individuality... nor do they live their lives as such.



tazzygirl -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:16:37 AM)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/hair-cutting-attacks-stir-fear-in-amish-ohio.html?pagewanted=all



barelynangel -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:17:05 AM)

Well Clickofheels, neither do i.  So does that mean i can decide the rules of the road don't apply to me?

My question is do they pay taxes? 

angel



Musicmystery -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:17:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Clickofheels


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

But as I said, I always enjoy finding out just how educated people are about the Amish.


In fairness, your painting them all as uniform is as stereotypical and unrealistic.

People are people. They are individuals, even among a cohesive group.




They do not believe in individuality... nor do they live their lives as such.

See, we got that part.

Thanks for the stereotype and the lesson.

Off to oppress more people. See ya!



Real0ne -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:18:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

RealOne.  This is an internal matter among the Amish, it's not a State concern or need for concern where Amish will and won't choose to compromise their religion and the consequences or non-consequences within their community for doing same.

Their community which is very strict with their religion obviously determined that the compromise to use the roads was okay and people who do so won't be shunned, then the not being shunned for placing the required signage to use such a road they compromise their religion to use is an internal matter and not one the State needs to compromise with regard to same.   This is their community issue and dealing with the possible consequences of their choosing to compromise their religion by using the roads.

angel

angel


its not an amish matter!

they lived that way LONG BEFORE THE EXISTENCE OF STATE!

its the state doing exactly what you people are doing and that is ignoring peoples right for MOB convenience.

Again they cannot trespass on your property, you and everyone else here conveniently totally IGNORE that fact.

Having an agreement with the people to use the common way before cars existed is not compromising their religion in any way form or manner.

You people keep trying to put bricks on top of your paper houses and I am the blow torch.

Compromise is not a part of the amish concern, they were here before you!  you peole simply do not get the most basic concepts in law.

No its YOUR COMMUNITY ISSUE an you have the job of insuring that their rights are respected and instead all you are doing is trampling them.

the amish are right and you are wrong simple as that.



fucktoyprincess -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:20:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

find an EQUITABLE solution that respects their rights.


We have one.

1) They are free to use the roads.
2) They use orange triangles for safety.



Yes, agreed.

If this were only an issue of their safety, perhaps an exception could be made. But it affects the safety of everyone else on the road, too. If I can't see them in the dark or in bad weather when I'm on the road, then the risks increase that I might accidentally hit them with my car. And if that happens, both the passengers in their buggy AND myself and any passengers who I have in my car are ALL at risk. The safety triangles seem a small imposition to keep everyone on the road safe.



Real0ne -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:21:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: barelynangel

Well Clickofheels, neither do i.  So does that mean i can decide the rules of the road don't apply to me?

My question is do they pay taxes? 

angel


no they do not pay taxes.

you decided you wanted pavement YOU PAY FOR IT!

again you all fail to understand they were here first and you have no right to dictate to them just because you CHANGED the menu.



seekerofslut -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:21:58 AM)

Everyone has the right to travel upon the roads. One's right to travel, though, may have been converted into privilege. Making a commercial use of the road is not one of traveling and as such requires license; permission by a competent authority to do that which would otherwise be unlawful, a trespass, or a tort. The Amish travel by right. They also make no commercial use.

from the OP -
The men have a religious objection to the bright orange signs, which they say are flashy and conflict with their pledge to live low-key and religious lives.

This fails. The signs do not directly interfere with any practice of their religious beliefs. The mandatory use of the signs is respective of the act of traveling via horse and buggy, not religion, upon roads where others also travel or make a use. Were the Amish travelers themselves required to sport reflective tape on their clothing that would fall within their claim.




tazzygirl -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:24:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Clickofheels


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

But as I said, I always enjoy finding out just how educated people are about the Amish.


In fairness, your painting them all as uniform is as stereotypical and unrealistic.

People are people. They are individuals, even among a cohesive group.




They do not believe in individuality... nor do they live their lives as such.



I do not blame them for the following. but....

The farmer is among a handful of Amish farmers here who have accepted federal cash for taking steps to protect the Chesapeake Bay. The payments are controversial here. The farmer asked that he be identified in print only by his first name, Daniel, because he was afraid his neighbors might see the story and criticize him for taking federal money.

http://www.nytimes.com/gwire/2011/10/10/10greenwire-amish-farmers-in-chesapeake-bay-watershed-find-94229.html?pagewanted=all

Do most accept long term benefits? No. But some do accept money from the govenrment



mnottertail -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:24:25 AM)

again you all fail to understand they were here first and you have no right to dictate to them just because you CHANGED the menu.



Again you fail to understand they were not here first.  According to real history.

Lief Erikkson met indians, not amish. 



Real0ne -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:24:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/18/us/hair-cutting-attacks-stir-fear-in-amish-ohio.html?pagewanted=all


you get into jurisdictional issues like when iran holds an american spy for trying to infiltrate and overthrow their government.

~Kermit



Musicmystery -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:25:37 AM)

quote:

no they do not pay taxes.

False. They pay income taxes, property taxes, and estate taxes.




mnottertail -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:25:53 AM)

The amish are not a soveriegn nation like our indian tribes, there is no jurisdiction SHIT!!!



Real0ne -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:25:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

again you all fail to understand they were here first and you have no right to dictate to them just because you CHANGED the menu.



Again you fail to understand they were not here first.  According to real history.

Lief Erikkson met indians, not amish. 


so cars then really were before horses and buggies.

thanks!



Clickofheels -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:26:38 AM)


(With the kindest, most sincere smile I can muster, and with no desire whatsoever for an argument)

Could we perhaps refrain from continuously using a female's body part in reference to a statement (some) people wish to make?
It would be nice to be able to consider you all as "GENTLEMEN" rather than males who crudely reference parts of a woman's body soley for the purpose of some Saturday afternoon snickering.

Thanks, guys!!! (Smile, smile, smile)

Sweetly posted,
Ms Click



FirmhandKY -> RE: Amish Jailed (1/14/2012 10:26:47 AM)

FR:

When I moved back to Kentucky, I read up on the situation, and several others that are ongoing within the state over the issue.

The government does have a right to "pre-empt" certain religious beliefs, if the religious activity is against "public policy".  However, that being said, in my mind the question is: "Is a compromise available?".

In other words, it is in good public policy to prevent accidents with slow moving vehicles.  I don't think anyone - including the Old Order Amish who are involved in these disputes - will argue against that.

The question is how to prevent such accidents.  The government is requiring a specific mechanism, and even if other perfectly feasible alternatives exist, and are used, the Amish are cited and/or arrested.

To me, this lack of desire, or inability to attempt to achieve a non-confrontational solution is fully the fault of the government.

I grew up with Mennonite buggies on the roads, and reflective tape works fine.  Very few accidents.

Some counties or towns in Kentucky have decided - for various reasons - to accept this compromise within their jurisdiction, regardless of the state law.  There have been no accidents so far, and no problems.

Some jurisdictions have made it a point to "go after" the Old Order Amish who still use reflective tape, and not the triangles.  That is where the controversy comes from.

There are problems will both courses of action, but the ultimate source of the problem is a too restrictive law which makes no effort to take into account the citizens who live under it.

Firm



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