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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 5:33:02 PM

Miserlou

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quote:

As an example, ask just about anyone under the age of 30 when the last was that they walked into a store and PURCHASED a CD?!!

today.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 6:01:52 PM

NeedToUseYou

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Ummmm, musicmystery, give me permission to monetize your works, and I will take 30% and give you 70%.

I don't understand how you can't be making money from your music catalog, really, youtube, pays you via adsense for views, if you have any significant demand for it, you could easily monetize it, also, by making it available in a very convenient manner their is little point to others pirating it.

So, I'm really not buying this whole music downloads is a problem thing, Movies, yeah, I get that to some degree, but even then it's the Movie industries refusal to make their product available in a modern format that causes most of their problems as well.

IMO.

Sure, piracy isa problem, but it's funny that when viacom sued youtube, viacom had lost track of videos it had uploaded to youtube under fake accounts to create an interest in their content, and actually filed against videos they had uploaded. LOL. So, it's not so far fetched to believe that fake takedowns will occur whether intentional or not.

Anyway, the solution isn't to force the present model of CD's, movie theaters, etc... the solution is to make avialable the content in a form much easier to consume than stealing it. At present it's far easier to download a movie than go buy the dvd. That's a big portion of the problem.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 6:18:48 PM

PeonForHer

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Meanwhile, while hands are wringing over here about dark imaginings, wholesale piracy is commonplace. It's way past time to deal with it. And that's going to mean introducing regulation in a previously wild west landscape.

I sympathise, MM. I'm a writer myself and I know old friends who've suffered from piracy. I could have done, myself, if I hadn't stuck rigidly to the old hard copy medium despite all enticements. But I do think that what's at stake is much, much too important. The Internet is a global commons of information like the world's never had before. The powers that be have never been faced with that and I very much enjoy seeing them struggling, and often failing, to handle it. It could lead to change, for the better, that people wouldn't have been able to envisage even two decades ago. Considering, for instance, the Arab Spring, many would say that's already happened, and in major part due to the existence of the Internet.

I do think we have to be very, very careful here. The American government has prided itself on its new, high tech ability to 'strike surgically', when it comes to physical attacks on its enemies (however much that appears to be bollocks in practice). Well, it can frigging well do the same thing with this issue, too. I can't accept any argument from them that boils down to 'Oh, we have no choice but to chuck a grenade in order to kill this canary'.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 7:12:57 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Miserlou

quote:

As an example, ask just about anyone under the age of 30 when the last was that they walked into a store and PURCHASED a CD?!!
today.

Welcome to the minority...

Q: What is the scope of the problem?

Music theft is a real, ongoing and evolving challenge. Both the volume of music acquired illegally and the resulting drop in revenues are staggering. Digital sales, while on the rise, are not making up the difference.

Consider these staggering statistics:

-In the decade since peer-to-peer (p2p) file-sharing site Napster emerged in 1999, music sales in the U.S. have dropped 47 percent, from $14.6 billion to $7.7 billion.

-From 2004 through 2009 alone, approximately 30 billion songs were illegally downloaded on file-sharing networks.

-NPD reports that only 37 percent of music acquired by U.S. consumers in 2009 was paid for.

-Frontier Economics recently estimated that U.S. Internet users annually consume between $7 and $20 billion worth of digitally pirated recorded music.

-According to the Information Technology & Innovation Foundation, the digital theft of music, movies and copyrighted content takes up huge amounts of Internet bandwidth – 24 percent globally, and 17.5 percent in the U.S.

-Digital storage locker downloads constitute 7 percent of all Internet traffic, while 91 percent of the links found on them were for copyrighted material, and 10 percent of those links were to music specifically, according to a 2011 Envisional study.

While the music business has increased its digital revenues by 1,000 percent from 2004 to 2010, digital music theft has been a major factor behind the overall global market decline of around 31 percent in the same period. And although use of peer-to-peer sites has flattened during recent years, other forms of digital theft are emerging, most notably digital storage lockers used to distribute copyrighted music.

Q: How much money does the music industry lose from piracy?

There are two categories to consider here: losses from street piracy – the manufacture and sale of counterfeit CDs – and losses from online piracy.

One credible analysis by the Institute for Policy Innovation concludes that global music piracy causes $12.5 billion of economic losses every year, 71,060 U.S. jobs lost, a loss of $2.7 billion in workers' earnings, and a loss of $422 million in tax revenues, $291 million in personal income tax and $131 million in lost corporate income and production taxes. For copies of the report, please visit www.ipi.org.

As you can imagine, calculating loses for online piracy is a difficult task. We do know that the pirate marketplace currently far dwarfs the legal marketplace, and when that happens, that means investment in new music is compromised.

All the same, it’s important to note that across the board, piracy is a very real threat to the livelihoods of not only artists and music label employees but also thousands of less celebrated people in the music industry – from sound engineers and technicians to warehouse workers and record store clerks. Piracy undermines the future of music by depriving the industry of the resources it needs to find and develop new talent and drains millions of dollars in tax revenue from local communities and their residents.

The music industry, while enormous in its economic, cultural and personal impact, is by business standards relatively small. So theft on this scale has a noticeable and devastating impact: employment at the major U.S. music companies has declined by thousands of workers, and artist rosters have been significantly cut back. The successful partnership between a music label and a global superstar – and the revenue generated – finances the investment in discovering, developing and promoting the next new artist. Without that revolving door of investment and revenue, the ability to bring the next generation of artists to the marketplace is diminished – as is the incentive for the aspiring artist to make music a full time professional career.

Source: http://www.riaa.com/faq.php

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 8:57:04 PM

Miserlou

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quote:

71,060 U.S. jobs lost

if they are really so very worried about u.s. jobs, why do they make their cds in the far east?

look, i'm sympathetic to artists who may lose potential sales due to illegal downloading, but come on, its not like the industry is dying. itunes has sold over 16 billion songs (over 6 billion songs last year alone), so its really not like its some crisis of major proportions that requires the government to circumvent the courts, curtail our freedoms, and ignore the constitution to put a stop to it. and the tears over the fate of the poor struggling artists is sort of overblown, as this page shows
http://artandavarice.com/2010/03/27/music-industry-profit-pie-chart/

here's an article which disputes the doom and gloom stories of the riaa.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/blog/2010/mar/12/demise-music-industry-facts

and this site seems to completely contradict the idea that the industry is in decline
http://www.grabstats.com/statmain.asp?StatID=67

here's the key quote:

quote:

Worldwide Music Industry Revenues (2006 - 2011)

2006 ($60.7 billion), 2007 ($61.5 billion), 2008 ($62.6 billion), 2009 ($65.0 billion), 2010 ($66.4 billion), 2011 ($67.6 billion)

so its not a question of them not making money, its a question of them not making as much money as they think they could.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 10:10:32 PM

MasterSlaveLA

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Respectfully, you're missing the key points of my posts... here they are:

1) The net absolutely has significantly hurt the entertainment industry.

2) Fuck the Record/Film/Publishing Companies... it's the ARTISTS that suffer.

There should be a way to protect the artists' property/rights (and livelihood), while also preserving the freedom/innovation of the net. I don't personally know what that solution is, but I do know it's not the current proposed legislation.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 3:47:44 AM

Miserlou

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quote:

Fuck the Record/Film/Publishing Companies... it's the ARTISTS that suffer.

uh huh. and the record companies are all worried about that.

quote:

I don't personally know what that solution is, but I do know it's not the current proposed legislation.

i agree

< Message edited by Miserlou -- 1/22/2012 3:49:15 AM >

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 9:47:30 AM

Musicmystery

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You are way behind the times. Record companies have little to do with it these days, and exist only because they have deep catalogs and rely on mass marketing (I've done marketing for both major and independent labels and distributors...it's a completely different operation with a completely different audience).

Artists since the late 60s learned the lessons earlier musicians had not--real money and artistic control in the music industry lies in the publishing companies, and early high profile examples like the Beatles and Joni Mitchell showed musicians the advantages. Musicians simply started holding onto the publishing rights (the key to earning royalties and controlling use), or selling them with the aid of qualified copyright attorneys representing them.

Since the early 80s, far more musicians than not took advantage of advances in technology (the four-track cassette recorder at first, then digital recording and desktop publishing for printed product) to set up studios in their own homes, many (including me) including a small but viable manufacturing operation in-house. I sold directly to distributors globally from my home. Both my studio and "label" are still listed in trade directories.

Not that stealing from record companies is justifiable either, but the bulk of the damage isn't to the man--it's to the musicians running their own small business, and business with a great deal of overhead, performance and studio, in a field requiring frequent upgrades.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 3:52:21 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Not that stealing from record companies is justifiable either, but the bulk of the damage isn't to the man--it's to the musicians running their own small business, and business with a great deal of overhead, performance and studio, in a field requiring frequent upgrades.

I feel for them, I really do, and I would love to solve their problem. However, hunting down file down-loaders, invading the privacy of people, truly is not the answer to their problem, as well as being ethically both wrong and reprehensible.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 3:56:12 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou
So, it's not so far fetched to believe that fake takedowns will occur whether intentional or not.

Fraudulent takedown notices have been and are used under the current system on youtube to try and knock atheists off the net.

Anybody who's heard of VenomFangX is probably familiar with this.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/22/2012 3:57:37 PM >

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 4:01:41 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

As an example, ask just about anyone under the age of 30 when the last was that they walked into a store and PURCHASED a CD?!!

It is an issue, I don't even own a CD player anymore and itunes isn't a fan of the wma format.

If the music, ebook and movie industries weren't selling products that are inferior to their free equivalents than their products would be a lot more buy-able.

< Message edited by GotSteel -- 1/22/2012 4:07:35 PM >

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 5:11:02 PM

SilverBoat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

You are way behind the times. Record companies have little to do with it these days, and exist only because they have deep catalogs and rely on mass marketing (I've done marketing for both major and independent labels and distributors...it's a completely different operation with a completely different audience).

Artists since the late 60s learned the lessons earlier musicians had not--real money and artistic control in the music industry lies in the publishing companies, and early high profile examples like the Beatles and Joni Mitchell showed musicians the advantages. Musicians simply started holding onto the publishing rights (the key to earning royalties and controlling use), or selling them with the aid of qualified copyright attorneys representing them.

Since the early 80s, far more musicians than not took advantage of advances in technology (the four-track cassette recorder at first, then digital recording and desktop publishing for printed product) to set up studios in their own homes, many (including me) including a small but viable manufacturing operation in-house. I sold directly to distributors globally from my home. Both my studio and "label" are still listed in trade directories.

Not that stealing from record companies is justifiable either, but the bulk of the damage isn't to the man--it's to the musicians running their own small business, and business with a great deal of overhead, performance and studio, in a field requiring frequent upgrades.

Yeah, I've done some solo, small group, and concert/theatre work. What's amazing, though not unexpected, really, is that there's better small-scale digital recording and software mixing gear available today for a pittance of costs just 10-15 years ago. (I bought a 2-chan 24-bit A/D I/O PCMCIA card for about $700 back when, now Roland has 4-chan handhelds for half that price with 300x a good laptop of that time's hard-drive.) If the project demands 64-tracks, a full orchestra, etc, maybe the criteria of having enough track record for initial funding and speculative buy-in is reasonable.

I'm only a marginal, incidental appreciateur of over-produced big-budget music and shows. Most of 'em seem drearily formulaic; bass beat so, hip thrust so, screech note so, dramatic eye so, blah. Put the band on the stage, let 'em play, if they can't 'sell' the song without costumes, lights, and hoorah, it wasn't all that good.

It might be a little bit different-drummer, but one way to cleave the conflicts of interest in all this would be taking Art out of the producer-defined value paradigm and into a perceiver-defined valuation. Several quite successful bands encourage their fans to video shows with cellphones and post those on the web. They figure that increases their concert revenue, music-sales at venues, the occasional online sale of higher-quality video, audio, etc.

That's a radically shifted business model from the big-industry control-the-content approach, and I'd argue that it's better for society as a whole, if maybe a little tougher on artistic critique. (In other words, if they won't pay for the music, keep a day job.) I've been involved in discussions where others argued that good artists "deserved" opportunity to pursue their work full time, but they really didn't have a sound answer for who decided what art was good-enough to deserve that. (The art/music/stage critics? Really?) ...

Anyway, it's a complex topic, NY is 10-7 over SF, and I'm out of beer.

...

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 6:07:41 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

However, hunting down file down-loaders, invading the privacy of people, truly is not the answer to their problem, as well as being ethically both wrong and reprehensible.

Right. So is investigating shoplifting.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 6:08:49 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

If the music, ebook and movie industries weren't selling products that are inferior to their free equivalents than their products would be a lot more buy-able.

Now there's a fancy tap dance.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 6:11:32 PM

Musicmystery

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quote:

Several quite successful bands encourage their fans to video shows with cellphones and post those on the web.

Yes. And that's the ARTIST'S choice.

Some people let their neighbors borrow their car. But I wouldn't suggest "borrowing" one without permission.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 6:27:14 PM

GotSteel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

If the music, ebook and movie industries weren't selling products that are inferior to their free equivalents than their products would be a lot more buy-able.

Now there's a fancy tap dance.

Care to translate that for the rest of us?

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 6:28:43 PM

Icarys

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quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

If the music, ebook and movie industries weren't selling products that are inferior to their free equivalents than their products would be a lot more buy-able.

Now there's a fancy tap dance.

Care to translate that for the rest of us?

I'll do it.

That was a flimsy excuse for stealing.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 7:16:15 PM

GotSteel

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ORIGINAL: Icarys
That was a flimsy excuse for stealing.

It's not an excuse, far from it. Unfortunately it's also the reality of what's happening.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 9:10:44 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

quote:

However, hunting down file down-loaders, invading the privacy of people, truly is not the answer to their problem, as well as being ethically both wrong and reprehensible.

Right. So is investigating shoplifting.

You are ethically mightily confused. There is a huge difference between sharing files and shoplifting. I explained that to you before, but it is no use talking to deaf people and sign language will not help here.

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/22/2012 9:23:47 PM

Edwynn

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Sorry, but this is just too funny.

The OP would be taken as against government intrusion into our lives, so we are then expected to indulge ourselves in the links provided, all of which require registration and further intrusion into our lives by congresspersons and corporations.

Yup, right on the mark here.

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