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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 4:10:46 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I am talking about you wanting to sell baked air.

Then why would you want my baked air? Go make your own and enjoy. And especially why would you want to sell my baked air yourself?

The power company charges me for electrons too. Silly buggers.

Theft of work is theft of work. Construct bullshit analogies for it to justify it--it's still theft.

Music sales today are $6 billion, down from $15 billion. Meanwhile, piracy and file-sharing continue to surge.

Theft. T. H. E. F. T.

Print content is perhaps even worse--and I'm not talking about incidental fair use.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2012 4:19:40 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 141
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 4:20:36 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
Then why would you want my baked air? Go make your own and enjoy. And especially why would you want to sell my baked air yourself?

I do collect baked air advertisements, but I am unlikely to have any interest in your baked air advertisements. Baked air advertisements have no value whatever anyway.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 142
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 4:25:50 PM   
Musicmystery


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(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 143
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 4:59:43 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Hardly. My blog is completely original material. I do have commercial websites. They also have original material, including the designs.


Is the computer it is hosted on free of pirated material?

If not, your sites are collateral when I pull the plug.

Please trust me when I say the final argument, omitting all the hypotheticals, is that the technology required to implement this law on a nationwide scale cannot at present make any accurate distinction, and that it's not financially viable to make such a distinction.

Please also trust me when I say several truly brilliant minds have been applied to the problem of enforcing copyright law, both from the desire to protect our own intellectual property and from the desire to earn money by selling the solution to major media companies that would've been willing to spend incomprehensible amounts of money on buying it. There has been no progress that can be applied in the next 10 years, and that's a very optimistic projection.

To me, personally, I would worry about the hypotheticals. A leash is still a leash, even if nobody is pulling on it. But since you don't find that to be a problem, I've stripped it down to the concrete basics that should matter to you: we don't have the precision to do this. It isn't any more accurate at present than firing a cluster warhead at a city block when some suspect doesn't drop their gun as ordered by the police. Or taking a plane to a building because some of the people in that country, put together, are responsible for some of the decline in your own country. That is not a standard of justice that I can support for my part.

Can you support that standard of justice, even to preserve your livelihood?

Health,
al-Aswad.

P.S.: I still doubt that it will be effective, either.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 144
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 5:14:30 PM   
Aswad


Posts: 9374
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Even music stores are nearly a thing of the past.


As are blacksmiths, watchmakers, chemists, and even TV repair shops (at least where I live).

Which isn't because of piracy, but the changing face of their industries, of course. Still, adapting to circumstance may be the most realistic option now. I haven't figured out how to do that for my intellectual property, either, so I'm not entirely unsympathetic to the problem you're facing. But I also happen to know a thing or two about how this works.

My local music stores and video stores, however, haven't suffered from piracy. They've suffered from competition from iTunes and online music shops that have a wider selection and tolerably quick delivery. What the successful ones have done, is to focus. They've narrowed their selection width, and increased their selection depth, as well as picking more qualified sellers. Now we can go to jazz stores or the like to meet other enthusiasts, get good advice by the clerk and listen to good music on good headphones at reasonable volumes, then bring it home to enjoy it in full. Adaptation.

As always, fitness is an issue when new selection pressures appear.

I'm no more happy about that than you.

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 145
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 5:15:21 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Inventing misuses is an easy game. Hell, the current laws are easy to abuse--anyone could file some nutty lawsuit against another, forcing an expense defense against groundless claims. Police misuse their power...should we not have police? Military misconduct happens...should we abolish the military? Or...should we have reasonable protections in place, and sort out the abuses for what they are, misuse of the law.

In it's place, we have long-standing piracy, from the cassette to the mp4, and a culture that says "If I can, then I have that right." If stores were not locked, people would just walk off with the goods, and claim it's the shop-owners fault, and besides, they have plenty or over-charge anyway or whatever other bullshit justification.

Piracy is an issue so large that it forces career changes. I'm not talking about the wanna-be garage band that has a few successes--I'm talking about full time excellent professional musicians, with dozens of albums credits to our names and thousands of performances behind us. We've all dealt with it in different ways. I especially admire the stance my friends in Gandalf Murphy (now the Grand Slambovians) took, circumventing the entire establishment. I went capitalist instead, and later my work and reputation opened academic opportunities. But it's still piracy, and it's still a factor in my business and personal decisions. It shouldn't be.

By contrast, your examples are (no offense) paltry. If Blogger (owned by Google) went down in the extreme situations you're proposing, I'd change host. Simple reality. In the extreme, I'd host it myself if it were that important.

People need to wake up to the reality that hitherfore unenforced law does not equal a right. And people DO think that.

Nor does enforcement mean the hammer comes down. Look at OSHA, for example--so fantastically understaffed that inspectors rarely show up. Nor are armies of bureaucrats going to swoop down on some misplaced photo or phrase (which may well fall under fair use anyway, properly cited) on somebody's website.

Meanwhile, while hands are wringing over here about dark imaginings, wholesale piracy is commonplace. It's way past time to deal with it. And that's going to mean introducing regulation in a previously wild west landscape.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 146
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 5:17:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

They've suffered from competition from iTunes and online music shops that have a wider selection and tolerably quick delivery.


While that's true, that $15 billion to $6 billion slide includes digital music.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Even music stores are nearly a thing of the past.


As are blacksmiths, watchmakers, chemists, and even TV repair shops (at least where I live).

But unlike blacksmiths, demand for music hasn't dropped--just paying for it vs. piracy.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2012 5:18:55 PM >

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 147
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 5:52:14 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

While that's true, that $15 billion to $6 billion slide includes digital music.


I was refering to the music stores, not the industry as a whole, but sure.

quote:

But unlike blacksmiths, demand for music hasn't dropped--just paying for it vs. piracy.


More to the point: demand has dropped due to piracy. That's the allegation being made, isn't it? That there is a demand that would've been met by sales being made if piracy wasn't occuring? The converse argument has been made that the problem exists because of a shift in priorities, whereas piracy is about people using the content when it wouldn't have resulted in any sales. I tend to think there's a middle ground between those analyses.

As a sidebar, off topic and thus not ideal to pursue here, it has probably boosted other industries. Tablets, smartphones and the like have undoubtedly received a fair amount of money due to priorities shifting. Whether piracy is an outgrowth of the shifting priorities, or a facilitator of the shift, or both, is not entirely clear. But it's probably better for humanity as a whole than mere consumption, which is what the pirated materials are about, for the most part. The propensity to pirate seems inversely porportional to how much one cares about the pirated material. But I digress.

Incidentally, if piracy is ubiquitous, start taxing it and funding the producers directly. Cut out the middle man and make intellectual property production a public good. Kind of like universities and roads and such things. This isn't really all that radical an idea to you as a producer, is it? I mean, with the population showing themselves ready to go consuming intellectual goods in such huge volumes, one could make an argument that it's being used on par with roads, which are generally maintained with taxes and the like?

Health,
al-Aswad.



_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 148
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:03:58 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		I have an entirely different proposal: Have a tax that anyone selling physical products tainted by information must also put that information on the Internet so that humanity at large may be informed about that product. It will do away with all these copyright scams.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 149
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:09:13 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

Incidentally, if piracy is ubiquitous, start taxing it and funding the producers directly.


Oddly enough, piracy tends to happen outside of the legal framework, and its perpetrators tend not to pay the taxes. There's also a significant off-shore issue here.

That's actually the impetus behind the legislation. Off-shore is outside U.S. framework, complicating solutions.

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 150
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:10:19 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I have an entirely different proposal: Have a tax that anyone selling physical products tainted by information must also put that information on the Internet so that humanity at large may be informed about that product. It will do away with all these copyright scams.

You're just being a dick. Knock it off.

Just outlaw work for pay--that will solve the patent and labor issues too.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 151
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:10:55 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Maybe we could just let people collect market value for their creativity and labor... and make reasonable laws to protect their property.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 152
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:13:44 PM   
Musicmystery


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Joined: 3/14/2005
Status: offline 		Amen.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 153
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 6:43:26 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Several sponsors of the legislation, including Senators Roy Blunt, Chuck Grassley, Orrin Hatch and John Boozman and Marco Rubio, said they were withdrawing their support. Some blamed Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid for rushing the Senate version of the bill.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pockets-internet-dark-protest-piracy-000841443.html

Issa introduces SOPA alternative in the House
The Open Act would allow copyright holders to file complaints with the U.S. International Trade Commission

The Open Act would allow copyright holders to file complaints about copyright infringement at foreign websites with the U.S. International Trade Commission, which would investigate the complaints and decide whether U.S. payment processors and online advertising networks should be required to cut off funding.

"Open is a targeted, effective solution to the problem of foreign, rogue websites stealing from American artists and innovators," Issa said in a statement. "Today's Internet blackout has underscored the flawed approach taken by SOPA and PIPA to the real problem of intellectual property infringement. Open is a smarter way to protect taxpayers' rights while protecting the Internet."

By contrast, SOPA would allow the U.S. Department of Justice and copyright holders to seek court orders requiring payment processors and ad networks to stop doing business with foreign websites accused by the plaintiffs of copyright infringement. SOPA would also allow the Justice Dept. to seek court orders requiring search engines and possibly other websites to stop linking to sites it accuses of infringing copyright.

SOPA would also give Internet service providers, domain name registrars, and other online service providers immunity from lawsuits if they voluntarily cut off service to websites accused of infringing.

Opponents of SOPA and PIPA say the bills don't give owners of foreign websites enough due process and could cut off legitimate free speech on websites that have a mix of content.

But Rep. Lamar Smith (R-Texas), SOPA's lead sponsor, said the Open Act wouldn't do enough to stop the billions of dollars in online piracy and counterfeiting that happens every year. The Open Act "may make the problem worse," Smith said in a statement. "The Open Act makes the Internet even more open to foreign thieves that steal America's technology and intellectual property without protecting U.S. businesses and consumers," Smith added. "The proposal amounts to a safe harbor for foreign criminals who steal American technology, products and intellectual property."

Among the co-sponsors of the Open Act are many of the most vocal opponents of SOPA, including Reps. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah), Anna Eshoo (D-Calif.), Zoe Lofgren (D-Calif.), and Jim Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.).

Also sponsoring the bill is Rep. Jim Langevin (D-R.I.), an activist for improved cyber security practices. SOPA would allow the U.S. government and copyright holders to "filter the Internet," while the Open Act represents a compromise that will crack down on piracy, Langevin said in a statement "Instead of trying to mitigate security, economic, and Internet freedom concerns with broad, over-reaching technical solutions, I support proposals like this one that seek a middle ground for curbing online piracy while protecting American jobs and innovative technologies that have allowed us to remain the world leader online," he added.

The Consumer Electronics Association, a vocal opponent of SOPA, applauded Issa and the other sponsors for introducing the Open Act.

http://www.infoworld.com/d/the-industry-standard/issa-introduces-sopa-alternative-in-the-house-184489

A good compromise?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 154
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:28:45 PM   
Miserlou


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quote:

If you're done with the obnoxious personal shots
oh the irony. 

you do realise that this bill won't actually accomplish what you want it to, don't you?


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Misery

and the history books forgot about us

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 155
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:32:45 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		Incredibly, I do support copyright laws (to a degree, as someone pointed out, it's tough to copyright information, in my view) but, I do not support a bill that gives any jerk-wad on the internet the ability to close down entire sites.

I noticed that moveon.org was on that list of sites, joining the protest. Moveon is a site with whom I have some deep disagreements.

Under this legislation, I could send an e-mail saying: "Moveon has copyrighted material on their site for which they weren't given permission" and get them shut down. I don't even have to claim to be the copyright owner (if I read the bill correctly). The reason why that's important is because it gives the government (and any moron with an internet connection) the ability to shut down a site without any kind of due process.

How would the democrats feel when a republican gets elected and they decide to shut down moveon? This legislation will give sweeping, unprecedented power not only to a government that is showing signs of tyranny but to anyone with an axe to grind.

Sites like Moveon are for the expressed purpose of opposition (to whatever) that is a necessity in a free society, if we wish it to remain free.

MM, I am not unsympathetic. I'm a writer, also but, I don't see how jealously guarding my ideas/thoughts under the banner of "Intellectual Property" advances anything near free speech.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/18/2012 7:35:41 PM >

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 156
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:40:57 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I'm a writer, also but, I don't see how jealously guarding my ideas/thoughts under the banner of "Intellectual Property" advances anything near free speech.


Of course it doesn't--it's a property rights issue.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 157
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:43:38 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline 		If information is property, you should be paying all your school teachers and professors, every time you publish something. They gave you the information to formulate and share your thoughts.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 158
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:51:24 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Inventing misuses is an easy game. Hell, the current laws are easy to abuse--anyone could file some nutty lawsuit against another, forcing an expense defense against groundless claims. Police misuse their power...should we not have police? Military misconduct happens...should we abolish the military? Or...should we have reasonable protections in place, and sort out the abuses for what they are, misuse of the law.
Don't gotta invent 'em.

The governments track record on this is so far... not good.

Without enforced transparency and oversight, this bill is a no-go.

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 159
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:53:45 PM   
Musicmystery


Posts: 30259
Joined: 3/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

If information is property, you should be paying all your school teachers and professors, every time you publish something. They gave you the information to formulate and share your thoughts.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

And I paid for it, just as I'm paid to share that knowledge today. You're deliberately mixing issues.

I write. I charge for it. I sell it in ways that require you to pay to read it. And when you do...you do NOT have the right to turn around, make copies (print or electronic) and sell it. You MAY freely use those ideas to construct your OWN thoughts and write and sell those if you wish, properly cited as appropriate.
(Yes, I know I also write for free sometimes...illustrating a point here.)

The same applies to music. I recorded the albums. I own the rights. I'm happy to sell you a copy. You may NOT turn around and make several copies for redistribution. You do not have that right, and especially not to sell. If I choose to allow some free access, or perform free at times (I've done several benefits), that's my choice. Not yours.

It's my work. It's not a difficult concept--it's been copyright law for several decades. The only difference is...stealing got a lot easier a few decades ago, and now stealing is "free speech." Fuck no.


(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 160
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