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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 7:54:19 PM   
Miserlou


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quote:

didn't record the performance and sell it
that isn't what the bill is targeted at.


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and the history books forgot about us

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:18:23 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
And I paid for it, just as I'm paid to share that knowledge today. You're deliberately mixing issues.


You paid for it, once. I am quite sure you have disseminated parts of that information in your own writing. Under this legislation, the entire site that hosts your blog could be shut down! I am not mixing issues. This is the force and effect of this legislation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
I write. I charge for it. I sell it in ways that require you to pay to read it. And when you do...you do NOT have the right to turn around, make copies (print or electronic) and sell it. You MAY freely use those ideas to construct your OWN thoughts and write and sell those if you wish, properly cited as appropriate. (Yes, I know I also write for free sometimes...illustrating a point here.)


Ahhh! But, what you and I are typing here may change the thoughts and opinion of others. When they add to this forum, should they be compelled to give you or I credit? If they don't, should collarchat be shut down, as a result?

I understand your concern for your income. I get that and I support your right to enforce your copyright on your work. I do not support unbridled censorship which is what this bill (in its current form) will not only allow but promote !


quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
The same applies to music. I recorded the albums. I own the rights. I'm happy to sell you a copy. You may NOT turn around and make several copies for redistribution. You do not have that right, and especially not to sell. If I choose to allow some free access, or perform free at times (I've done several benefits), that's my choice. Not yours.


Again, I get it but, when someone uses my lryic in there profile on here because it has moved them, should collarme be shut down?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
It's my work. It's not a difficult concept--it's been copyright law for several decades. The only difference is...stealing got a lot easier a few decades ago, and now stealing is "free speech." Fuck no.


Just because something has been a law for "several decades" doesn't make it a good idea. Perhaps you support anti-sodomy laws? Are you against gay marriage? How about gays or single parents adopting children? Gays, serving in the military? The list goes on and on of laws that should not be in existence. The fact that they were shoved down our throats when we weren't looking or that the general populace is comprised more of sheeple than of people doesn't make them right; it makes them existent.

Please don't get me started on the ridiculous laws that fly in the face of a free society. This bill is a foothold to control of what we're allowed to think !



Peace and comfort,



Michael


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/18/2012 8:19:58 PM >


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Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:22:29 PM   
Rule


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FR

One cannot own baked air. Try and catch it, and it will escape through the tiniest hole.

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Profile   Post #: 163
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:26:06 PM   
Musicmystery


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You would know.

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Profile   Post #: 164
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:27:38 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

what you and I are typing here may change the thoughts and opinion of others. When they add to this forum, should they be compelled to give you or I credit?


You're being silly. You and I are freely contributing to a public thread already organized chronologically and containing our prior influence.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:28:39 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

You paid for it, once.


And that's the difference between work for hire and owning the rights.

When I write for a private client, for instance, I'm paid once--and charge accordingly.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:30:28 PM   
DaddySatyr


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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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I guess it would be a good thing if Rep. Gingrich were allowed to shut down CNN.com because they used a snippet of President Obama's speech just because Newtie doesn't like what the president has to say about the republican party?

Of course, there's an implicite permission given by the president because he wants Americans to hear what he has to say but, the mind wobbles when you think about the extra paperwork that someone will have to do to prevent this from happening under this legislation.

"Implied" is not good enough. No one knows exactly what another person is thinking (especially if we can't hear them speak).

As I said, earlier: the politicians can dress this one up anyway they want but it's still a fucking pig.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Profile   Post #: 167
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:33:02 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

I guess it would be a good thing if Rep. Gingrich were allowed to shut down CNN.com because they used a snippet of President Obama's speech just because Newtie doesn't like what the president has to say about the republican party?


That's fair use--and you know it; you were a journalist.




< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2012 8:40:23 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 168
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:43:56 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
You're being silly. You and I are freely contributing to a public thread already organized chronologically and containing our prior influence.


And the writings of Thomas Jefferson have already influenced me; as have the lyrics of countless bands, the writing of many authors (Some day I'll talk about how "Memnoch The Devil" changed my life) and many other pieces of information/ideas.

I'm not being silly. What you and I are typing are our thoughts. It is information that others may not already have. Yes, we are posting it freely but these thoughts and ideas are still ours (well, mine aren't. They've come down to me through centuries of a belief system that were the cornerstone of our society). Should we be paying royalties to the people that have influenced us and helped us to arrive at our views?

I notice you didn't say anything about the argument that something's been a law for decades being a weak argument? I take it that you agree that, all by itself, that is not a good enough reason to continue something that is a bad idea?

In the 70s, VCRs were going to finish Hollywood. In the 80s (late 80s) it was the advent of CDs that were going to ruin sales of records (no more scratches and degredation of sound quality). In the 90s, the interweb was going to kill books and periodicals.

None of these things has happened.

Are there "pirates" out there? Of course! Do we already have laws that hold them accountable? Fuck yes !



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:47:20 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

In the 80s (late 80s) it was the advent of CDs that were going to ruin sales of records (no more scratches and degredation of sound quality).


Actually, that's exactly what happened.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:52:56 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery
That's fair use--and you know it; you were a journalist.


That's only fair use because there is an implied consent idea that is in place. President Obama does not sign releases every time he opens his mouth with a microphone or video camera around. It's fair use because the implication is that he wants what he is saying to get out to the public. That's how that exception was formulated.

How did that work out for other politicians who said things they shouldn't have ("The bombing starts in ten minutes" ... President Reagan)? Fair use? Puh-lease! I am quite sure that President Reagan would have availed himself of this law had it been available to him, if not to stop the audio from being used then, as a punishment for its use. That's just one major occurance that I can think of, at the moment.

This is exactly the kind of thing I am talking about. President Reagan's nuts should have been roasted over that incident. It's not very presidential to joke about something like that.

Yes, I understand that things are not perfect right now but, the scope of this bill, if it were to become law, would be so far reaching as to make some of these scenarios not only plausible but a reality. That's the scary part.

I agree that piracy must be stopped but I am damned sick and tired of having to give up some of my rights everytime some special interest group gets a hard-on and decides that their rights are the only ones that matter.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

ETA: I really would like to continue this but I have been fighting a migraine all day and if I don't get away from this screen, it ain't gonna get any better.


< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 1/18/2012 8:55:51 PM >


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 171
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 8:56:58 PM   
Musicmystery


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It's fair use because it's spelled out that way in copyright law, even affirmed by the courts.

Victims of theft are a special interest group now? Jesus Christ, Michael.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2012 9:20:21 PM >

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 9:08:57 PM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
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From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
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It's "Michael" and no, victims are never a special interest group. However, people who think that they can transmit their thoughts/ideas/opinions and not have them used by others are a "special interest" group.

Free exchange of ideas has what has grown our society from the time we left the caves. It's a good thing there were no laws protecting fire or how to make it. The wheel? Ideas, exchanged freely, grow a society and influence people to do the (hopefully) right thing.

Information that doesn't reach people is useless. I would posit that pirates may actually help people sell their ideas (to a degree). I have seen pirated movies and thought: "Gee, I'd like to see this movie when it wasn't recorded in a movie theatre on 'Hatcam'." so, I go out and buy the DVD.

If I write something that someone else wants to use, my ego screams how I have to get credit but it's also placated by the fact that my idea ... my information has caused at least one person to think. I don't insist that the person subscribe to my website. Use what you want, if it furthers the thought process and general good.



Peace and comfort,



Michael


_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 9:13:07 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

However, people who think that they can transmit their thoughts/ideas/opinions and not have them used by others are a "special interest" group.


The issue here is people who have their ideas stolen and transmitted by someone else profiting in place of the ones who created the work.

It's called piracy.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 174
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 9:47:36 PM   
Rule


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One can only steal physical objects. It involves one person having the physical object, like a car, and another not having that physical object and passing by and taken the physical object away, as a car thief does, and the first person then not having the physical object any more, whereas the second person does. Are you with me so far?

As for information, being intangible, it cannot be stolen; it can only be shared. When person A shares information with person B both persons as a result have the information. It is not possible for person B to come along and take the information away from person A, leaving person A without the information. Are you with me so far?

Now you come along, blathering about people - like your mom at the coffee table or when doing the dishes - sharing information being thieves. But who truly is the scam artist baker wanting to sell hot air instead of bread? I am the cadi. You cannot bribe me, you cannot buy me. I see you for what you are.

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Profile   Post #: 175
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 10:23:40 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Oddly enough, piracy tends to happen outside of the legal framework, and its perpetrators tend not to pay the taxes. There's also a significant off-shore issue here.  That's actually the impetus behind the legislation. Off-shore is outside U.S. framework, complicating solutions.


Offshore is essentially unaffected by the technical solution involved in implementing this measure.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/18/2012 10:26:35 PM   
Musicmystery


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Oddly enough, piracy tends to happen outside of the legal framework, and its perpetrators tend not to pay the taxes. There's also a significant off-shore issue here.  That's actually the impetus behind the legislation. Off-shore is outside U.S. framework, complicating solutions.


Offshore is essentially unaffected by the technical solution involved in implementing this measure.

Health,
al-Aswad.


Your solution is taxes. Taxing off-shore foreign operations isn't a possibility.



< Message edited by Musicmystery -- 1/18/2012 10:27:37 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/19/2012 12:42:12 AM   
Aswad


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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Yup. I don't even have the freedom to practice my craft without it being stolen, thanks to all you freedom fighters.


This accusation is uncalled for, incidentally.

And I believe the accurate statement would be that you don't have adequate protection for your legal rights over ephemeral goods to secure the financial viability of the practice of your craft. Insofar as that is "thanks to" any of us opposing the currently suggested measure in its current form, you would first of all have to be deliberately setting aside the matter that it isn't even in effect yet and thus can only affect the future of your financial security, not its present. People have made their voice heard in the past when an enforcement measure has gone too far, and ultimately it will be treated according to the democratic process. The same process that extended legal rights over ephemeral goods in the first place, and which always determines the protections and enforcement measures that are to be in place. It's not a process I'm overly fond of, but there seems to be a consensus that it is the lesser evil on the table.

Quite simply put, if your rights cannot be protected without attacking innocent people, I cannot fault other people for not wanting to protect them. I believe, however, that your rights can be protected to a much better extent than today, without attacking or even inconveniencing innocent people. Complete protection is not feasible, but there is absolutely a shot at improving the current situation. Doing the research and participating in the process to arrive at a bill that takes both the producers, consumers and bystanders into account, while obviously not trivial, is the way to go. I'm unwilling to make the assumption that you would rather do harm to bystanders than participate in lawmaking that directly affects you.

Besides, I know you're more than capable of doing the research, which is more than can be said about the politicians that have been involved with the bill so far. And they shouldn't have to be, as theirs is the domain of principle, not the domain of practice. However, when the practice requires dismantling the digital age and reassembling it, with unspecified parties paying for it (it's clear the beneficiaries are not among the candidates to pay), the cost to society is too high. At that point, others need to step in and provide the politicians with advice on a better resolution.

The analogy is accurate: closing a library for one of their books quoting Anne Rice fan fiction (yes, she does have an established and solid reputation for abusing her rights, contacts and standing far beyond what is provided for under law; she would be requiring such a library to close down if she could, going by her track record, and this law permits digital equivalents of that).

Also, please don't mistake my frequently directing my replies to you for an attack.

I think highly of you on several levels. That is why I am attempting to get a point across which doesn't seem to have gotten across, or to figure out where the difference of opinion lies. Clearly, it's not a difference of opinion on whether we're interested in having our respective I.P. claims enforced better. That should, in principle, put us on the same side, nominally. On which different points do we diverge? That's what I'm curious about.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to Musicmystery)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/19/2012 1:05:10 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
FR

If anyone is of the opinion that baked air is worth as much as bread or even a tiny fraction of bread, I recommend that that anyone become a highway man and start downloading baked air like gluttonly crazy: by your reckoning within two weeks you will have downloaded so much baked air that you are a millionaire! Crime pays!

Okay, so now you are a multimillionaire. How are you going to buy a hotdog with all the baked air on you hard disks? Guess what: the hotdog salesman is of the opinion that all that baked air is worth shit; he wants half a dollar, and if you want mustard on your hotdag too, he wants an extra dime. Fortunately, there is a solution: some performers are of the opinion that all the baked air on your hard disks indeed is worth tens of millions of dollars. So you propose them a deal: give me physical objects tainted with the information of all your performances and a hotdog, and I will trade you some of the baked air on one of my hard disks in such quantity as to be worth at least ten times as much as the cost of the physical objects and the hotdog combined. No? A hundred times as much? A thousand times as much? Ten million times as much? All of the baked air? Still no takers? Then the baked air on my hard disks is utterly worthless. Keep your physical objects then, for I cannot afford them, and have the baked air for free, all of it, but I beg you: Buy a starving man a hotdog!

(in reply to Aswad)
Profile   Post #: 179
RE: SOPA and PIPA info - 1/21/2012 3:46:16 PM   
MasterSlaveLA


Posts: 3991
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

In the 70s, VCRs were going to finish Hollywood. In the 80s (late 80s) it was the advent of CDs that were going to ruin sales of records (no more scratches and degredation of sound quality). In the 90s, the interweb was going to kill books and periodicals.



Actually, "the net" HAS had a devastating impact on Hollywood, musicians, authors, and so forth.  As an example, ask just about anyone under the age of 30 when the last was that they walked into a store and PURCHASED a CD?!!  The vast majority will readily admit they just download the CD/Songs for FREE -- and simple browser plugins make this so easy, with the click of a button you can swipe just about ANYTHING off the net!!!  You're wrong if you think the net hasn't had a MAJOR impact in this regard.

As an aside, much of the reason why the industry went the way of CDs in the 80s was NOT because CDs were superior -- in fact, they sounded like shit?!!  The REAL reason the industry went the way of CDs was because the Record Companies could TOTALLY SCREW the artists out of royalties because their contracts stipulated royalties on records, cassettes, tape, and so forth, but did NOT contain the key phrase, "or other recorded medium".  Thus, the Record Companies discovered they could give thousands of lesser-known/less famous artists THE SHAFT on any royalties due them.  That's the REAL REASON why CDs exploded on the market so quickly.





< Message edited by MasterSlaveLA -- 1/21/2012 4:20:49 PM >


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Profile   Post #: 180
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