RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death"

RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (Full Version)

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tweakabelle -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 1:44:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why should a woman who took all reasonable precautions (and dont even get me STARTED on the rape/incest/etc) be forced to carry a baby to term if the child is unwanted? What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). Peace and comfort, Michael If men wish to take that position, that's their choice. Let them make their position very clear to their prospective partners before the baby making happens, not afterwards. If they don't, then they're denying the woman her right to make a fully informed choice about sleeping with them. If men don't agree that it's the woman's right to choose, but still choose to sleep with the woman, then they're have sex under false pretences, they're the ones acting irresponsibly, they're the ones engaging in deception. If men wish to share the decision making responsibility, they'd better have acted responsibly themselves from the start.

Trismagistus -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 1:47:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why should a woman who took all reasonable precautions (and dont even get me STARTED on the rape/incest/etc) be forced to carry a baby to term if the child is unwanted? What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). Peace and comfort, Michael I'm actually diametrically opposed to this, I think if either potential parent doesn't want the child it shouldn't come into being, there is no fairness in forcing someone to create a life they do not wish to create on this earth if it can be prevented, and a man has just as much to lose as a woman if an unwanted child is forced into the picture, at the very minimum it can mean 18 years of child support and a guilty conscience for not wanting to be involved in the life of their progeny if that's not what they want out of life.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 2:14:02 PM)
The reason it is easy to feel hostile to so called pro-lifers is that the pro choice movement is not trying to force anybody to do anything, they simply want reproductive choices to be available. No one is suggesting that women be forced to abort against their will. The pro life movement, on the other hand, is dead set on forcing women to continue unwanted pregnancies. The fact is, neither side is going to convince the other side of anything.

fucktoyprincess -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 2:24:58 PM)
I will say this about men and their involvement in this decision. Since becoming sexually active, I have only rarely been asked by a man whether or how I was handling the birth control issue (i.e., I am generally the one to raise this issue). Men seem very casual about the risk of pregnancy before the fact. Men are more willing to discuss std risk than they are unwanted pregnancy. I can't believe that I am the only woman here who has had that experience. I agree that it takes two to have sex - and, in an ideal world, the repercussions ought to be something that both parties understand, and have discussed. But my personal experience is that men (of all ages) are not up front about the pregnancy risk issue.

wolf223 -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 2:27:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess p.s. to all of those who feel the innocent life of a child should not be in the balance, I would like to say then why don't YOU personally agree to pay for the overall lifetime expenses for the next unwanted child who is born because a woman could not get access to a timely, safe abortion? And if you are NOT willing to pay for that child's actual needs during their lifetime, then you have ZERO right to tell the mother of that child whether she should have access to a safe abortion or not. It just galls me that people want to criminalize abortion, but feel no compulsion to help those people who are already on the face of the planet and who are struggling with poverty, disease, and a myriad of other issues. You want to be empathetic? Help the people who are already here and need your help instead of worrying about the unborn. And if you can't bring yourself to take care of those who are already here, then please, spare us the sanctimony about how you care about human life. This is exactly my opinion while being pro-life none of them are concerned with the quality of life after birth. I got my ex pregnant we got married and we had a second child together we love them both more than I can express,but having babies at 16 &15 seriously fucked up both of our lives. I am a man and I don't believe I have the right to dictate to a woman what should be done to her body. After our second child I had my tubes cut. I did not want to father any more children. As for adoption people want to adopt babies the process takes years. Why do you think overseas adoption is so popular?

kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:09:49 PM)
quote: Since becoming sexually active, I have only rarely been asked by a man whether or how I was handling the birth control issue (i.e., I am generally the one to raise this issue). Men seem very casual about the risk of pregnancy before the fact. Men are more willing to discuss std risk than they are unwanted pregnancy. I can't believe that I am the only woman here who has had that experience. You're not - I've found that often a hard cock is oblivious to both STD or pregnancy concerns.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:16:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: fucktoyprincess I will say this about men and their involvement in this decision. Since becoming sexually active, I have only rarely been asked by a man whether or how I was handling the birth control issue (i.e., I am generally the one to raise this issue). Men seem very casual about the risk of pregnancy before the fact. Men are more willing to discuss std risk than they are unwanted pregnancy. I can't believe that I am the only woman here who has had that experience. I agree that it takes two to have sex - and, in an ideal world, the repercussions ought to be something that both parties understand, and have discussed. But my personal experience is that men (of all ages) are not up front about the pregnancy risk issue. I have not encountered it either, In fact I make sure its known before sex is even on the table, that I will not have children and if by circumstance one comes into existence I will abort. And they have no say regardless... My health will not be endangered....

tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:43:07 PM)
quote: Tazzy, according to the Tazzy school of debating it only counts as a personal attack if the one saying it doesn't think it's true. Now I'm fairly confident that Trismagistus has a low enough opinion of pro-lifers that he thinks his insulting statements are accurate. As such according to the Tazzy school of debating your statement doesn't apply to him. Well I am impressed you believe that 1) I have my own school of tought, and 2) that you believe you know me that well. Both of which are preposterous. quote: I do however also think it's important to talk about the elephant in the room. That we're commonly talking about people who want to protect the zygote not because they care about the life of single celled organisms or even later on that we're talking about people who care about protecting life forms that have heartbeats. No where did I say that elephant should not be addressed. However, addressing that elephant in derogatory ways benefits no one and only serves to agitate and derail a thread.

tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:45:10 PM)
quote: Remember, for all their rhetoric, it's these "Pro Coathanger Death" advocates who are the ones who have been convicted for murdering people. And if they've killed once in the name of Allah, they'll do it again, won't they? Remember, for all their rhetoric, it's SOME of these "Pro Coathanger Death" advocates who are the ones who have been convicted for murdering people. And if they've killed once in the name of Allah, they'll do it again, won't they? There are a great many who have never even entertained the thought of killing. Generalizations will never work.. for either side.

tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:52:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why should a woman who took all reasonable precautions (and dont even get me STARTED on the rape/incest/etc) be forced to carry a baby to term if the child is unwanted? What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). Peace and comfort, Michael The problem with your argument is that for the father to have legal precedent, he has to prove himself the father legally. The risks of determining paternity, just for that sake of establishing paternity, make it an ill advised procedure.

tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:55:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: Since becoming sexually active, I have only rarely been asked by a man whether or how I was handling the birth control issue (i.e., I am generally the one to raise this issue). Men seem very casual about the risk of pregnancy before the fact. Men are more willing to discuss std risk than they are unwanted pregnancy. I can't believe that I am the only woman here who has had that experience. You're not - I've found that often a hard cock is oblivious to both STD or pregnancy concerns. 3 men have asked. None wanted to be fathers. Fair question.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 3:58:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why should a woman who took all reasonable precautions (and dont even get me STARTED on the rape/incest/etc) be forced to carry a baby to term if the child is unwanted? What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). Peace and comfort, Michael Flaw with this, is until the father can carry the child is his body... Hes holding the body of the woman who he fucked hostage for 9 months... And then if he changes his mind about what he wants, the woman is now stuck with the consequences... So all in all, is a man demanding a woman do something with out the woman's consent... it sucks trust me i understand, however until the baby can be carried regardless of the female.. The female has the greater choice in the matter because of the fact it will be her body thats ruined, her life thats changed, her job thats in danger, her everything ... his .. nothing.

DaddySatyr -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:19:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: farglebargle quote: ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr quote: ORIGINAL: GreedyTop why should a woman who took all reasonable precautions (and dont even get me STARTED on the rape/incest/etc) be forced to carry a baby to term if the child is unwanted? What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). Peace and comfort, Michael He should have negotiated the terms, BEFORE knocking her up if he wanted a say in things going forward, shouldn't he? If he was so negligent to overlook his interests before the act, why should anyone believe he'd be any more responsible afterwards? It doesn't matter. If she says it's gonna be, that's the way it is. The man has no say. Period. She has all the authority and no responsibility. Gloria Steinem would be proud.

Lucylastic -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:22:47 PM)
no responsibility Oh dear god..yeah walking away.again

DaddySatyr -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:33:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic no responsibility Oh dear god..yeah walking away.again Yes, walk away when you can't counter the truth. If a woman wants a baby that the man doesn't, he's financially fucked for 18-25 years (depends upon the state and the child's education choices) If a woman doesn't want a baby, even if the man does because he feels life is sacred, it doesn't matter. The argument is: "It's my body" so, she kills a child that is wanted (by someone) because she's worried she'll "lose her figure". It's all one-way. It's one of those things the law hasn't caught up with society, yet. When the laws for child support were written, women didn't have the opportunities that they do, today. A man who divorced his wife (or knocked a woman up and walked away) we sentencing them to a horrible existence. Now, ladies have the same abilities to get jobs that men do (some might say even better abilities because of the extra scholarships available in schooling and when was the last time you heard about welfare/social services helping single fathers? It happens now but, back in the day. Not so much). They're no longer helpless little creatures, cast aside by society. They have options. It's a shame, when a potential life hangs in the balance, men have none. You can walk away, now. You're comportment speaks volumes. Peace and comfort, Michael

Lucylastic -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:39:20 PM)
you simply arent worth getting a gold letter over. your wilful ignorance over womens health and responsibilities of pregnancy and childbirth is more than enough reason to walk away.

SpiritedRadiance -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:39:57 PM)
Again, when you can carry the child and shove it out throught your penis... We can have that debate.. Otherwise it sucks, yes its sad, but kidnapping and holding someone hostage because you decided to fuck someone who didnt have the same beliefs as you, isnt the womans problem... Its your inability to make sure your penis only goes in holes that will welcome your point of view or morals. You believe life is sacred, only fuck women who believe life is sacred...Simple quandary and conundrum solved... Catch me next week ill solve world hunger as well.

kalikshama -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:40:52 PM)
quote: What if the father wants the baby? He gets no say? It may be a woman's body but, the baby belongs to BOTH of them and if either parent wants the child to live, abortion should be ruled out (except where the mother's life is in danger). If you (general "you" referring to either gender) want a baby, be in a committed relationship and discuss all the repercussions before having unprotected sex. Don't, "Whoopsie, well, now that you're accidentally pregnant, this is what I want you to do."

tazzygirl -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 4:42:19 PM)
quote: Yes, walk away when you can't counter the truth. If a woman wants a baby that the man doesn't, he's financially fucked for 18-25 years (depends upon the state and the child's education choices) If a woman doesn't want a baby, even if the man does because he feels life is sacred, it doesn't matter. The argument is: "It's my body" so, she kills a child that is wanted (by someone) because she's worried she'll "lose her figure". Pregnancy is a known possible outcome from having sex. That's where the man has his responsibility. IF he doesnt want children, its HIS responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the woman told him she had it covered doesnt wash. Personal responsibility. quote: You can walk away, now. You're comportment speaks volumes. You didnt respond to the legality of your claim, or my response. Men have no legal claim over something they cannot prove is legally theirs. Forcing a woman to wait until 12 weeks gestation or longer just to prove that you are the father is not only cruel, but ludicrous. The potential complications just arent worth it and the courts will never abide by that.

Iamsemisweet -> RE: Time to call "Pro Lifers" what they are. "Pro Coathanger Death" (2/2/2012 5:00:20 PM)
Well, Satyr, I do have to agree with you to an extent. One thing I told my sons was that if they got a girl pregnant, it was very likely to fuck up their lives, since the girl would be the one making the decision as to the outcome of the pregnancy, and if she elected to have the baby and raise it, they would very likely be liable for child support. So much for college and any plans for the future. Happens all the time. Our conclusions as to how to remedy this is somewhat different. You apparently believe child support and other laws should be changed so the would be father is off the hook. I have a somewhat different solution, and that is what I told my sons. Don't get anyone pregnant until you are ready and prepared to be a father. It is your responsibility, as much as the woman's, to make sure you are using adequate birth control. In fact, since you feel so strongly about the issue, I would go so far as to say it is more your responsibility, since you are opposed to abortion and yet seem offended by the thought of supporting a child. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mother used to say.

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