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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

It's all one-way.

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, Satyr, I do have to agree with you to an extent.  One thing I told my sons was that if they got a girl pregnant, it was very likely to fuck up their lives, since the girl would be the one making the decision as to the outcome of the pregnancy, and if she elected to have the baby and raise it, they would very likely be liable for child support. So much for college and any plans for the future.  Happens all the time.

Our conclusions as to how to remedy this is somewhat different. You apparently believe child support and other laws should be changed so the would be father is off the hook. I have a somewhat different solution, and that is what I told my sons.  Don't get anyone pregnant until you are ready and prepared to be a father.  It is your responsibility, as much as the woman's, to make sure you are using adequate birth control.  In fact, since you feel so strongly about the issue, I would go so far as to say it is more your responsibility, since you are opposed to abortion and yet seem offended by the thought of supporting a child.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mother used to say.

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I am all for birth control. I am talking about having fathers have some say in the life of their child. The woman may not think it's a life but what if the man does? Why is only one voice valid?

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ORIGINAL: kalikshama

If you (general "you" referring to either gender) want a baby, be in a committed relationship and discuss all the repercussions before having unprotected sex.

Don't, "Whoopsie, well, now that you're accidentally pregnant, this is what I want you to do."

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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Yes, walk away when you can't counter the truth. If a woman wants a baby that the man doesn't, he's financially fucked for 18-25 years (depends upon the state and the child's education choices)

If a woman doesn't want a baby, even if the man does because he feels life is sacred, it doesn't matter. The argument is: "It's my body" so, she kills a child that is wanted (by someone) because she's worried she'll "lose her figure".

Pregnancy is a known possible outcome from having sex. That's where the man has his responsibility. IF he doesnt want children, its HIS responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the woman told him she had it covered doesnt wash.

Personal responsibility.

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You can walk away, now. You're comportment speaks volumes.

You didnt respond to the legality of your claim, or my response. Men have no legal claim over something they cannot prove is legally theirs. Forcing a woman to wait until 12 weeks gestation or longer just to prove that you are the father is not only cruel, but ludicrous. The potential complications just arent worth it and the courts will never abide by that.

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, Satyr, I do have to agree with you to an extent.  One thing I told my sons was that if they got a girl pregnant, it was very likely to fuck up their lives, since the girl would be the one making the decision as to the outcome of the pregnancy, and if she elected to have the baby and raise it, they would very likely be liable for child support. So much for college and any plans for the future.  Happens all the time.

Our conclusions as to how to remedy this is somewhat different. You apparently believe child support and other laws should be changed so the would be father is off the hook. I have a somewhat different solution, and that is what I told my sons.  Don't get anyone pregnant until you are ready and prepared to be a father.  It is your responsibility, as much as the woman's, to make sure you are using adequate birth control.  In fact, since you feel so strongly about the issue, I would go so far as to say it is more your responsibility, since you are opposed to abortion and yet seem offended by the thought of supporting a child.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mother used to say.

Not at all. If two people "accidentally" get one of the people pregnant, as I said, earlier: If one parent wants the baby to live, the child should be carried to term.

I am all for birth control. I am talking about having fathers have some say in the life of their child. The woman may not think it's a life but what if the man does? Why is only one voice valid?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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And if a woman doesn't want to have children, or if a woman doesn't want to put herself in a position to have to take the life of a child away from a father, it's HER responsibility to handle the matter. Whining that the man doesn't have any say over her body doesn't wash.

They jointly had sex, they jointly had sex without discussing and agreeing upon the actions to be taken of every single possible outcome of their act, and they should then jointly be discussing and agreeing upon the course of action in the case of pregnancy.

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I feel that to use legalilty and proof of fatherhood as argument for abortion is missing the bigger picture in a huge way. But perhaps this statement is an addendum to a more morality-based argument.

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

All I am saying DaddyS, is that you know this is the case and the status of the law.  So does pretty much everyone else, since men seem to bitch about this so much.  So, the answer is diligence, not rewriting the laws of this country so that some guy who has a drunken one night stand with a woman at a party is not suddenly in control of her destiny.

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

Well, Satyr, I do have to agree with you to an extent.  One thing I told my sons was that if they got a girl pregnant, it was very likely to fuck up their lives, since the girl would be the one making the decision as to the outcome of the pregnancy, and if she elected to have the baby and raise it, they would very likely be liable for child support. So much for college and any plans for the future.  Happens all the time.

Our conclusions as to how to remedy this is somewhat different. You apparently believe child support and other laws should be changed so the would be father is off the hook. I have a somewhat different solution, and that is what I told my sons.  Don't get anyone pregnant until you are ready and prepared to be a father.  It is your responsibility, as much as the woman's, to make sure you are using adequate birth control.  In fact, since you feel so strongly about the issue, I would go so far as to say it is more your responsibility, since you are opposed to abortion and yet seem offended by the thought of supporting a child.

An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, as my mother used to say.

Not at all. If two people "accidentally" get one of the people pregnant, as I said, earlier: If one parent wants the baby to live, the child should be carried to term.

I am all for birth control. I am talking about having fathers have some say in the life of their child. The woman may not think it's a life but what if the man does? Why is only one voice valid?



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr



There's no responsibility or accountability for the female in this equation. She does what she does and if a pregnancy happens? "Oh, well. I'll just take a trip to a local clinic. 'Problem' solved." If she decides to keep the baby and the father doesn't want it, she has the ability to keep her hands in his pockets for up to a quarter of a century.

My point is; there's no "negative outcome" for the women, here. Their "freedom" is well protected.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

I will say this, again: I NEVER want abortion to be illegal (I'd like to see it stop because people no longer want to engage in it). I want it to be as fair to all involved as is possible. Pretty much the same as my stance on capital punishment.

Make it fair. If one of the parents wants to raise an "unwanted" child, the child should be born. Of course, one parent wanting the child no longer makes it unwanted but, I digress.

There's no responsibility or accountability for the female in this equation. She does what she does and if a pregnancy happens? "Oh, well. I'll just take a trip to a local clinic. 'Problem' solved." If she decides to keep the baby and the father doesn't want it, she has the ability to keep her hands in his pockets for up to a quarter of a century.

My point is; there's no "negative outcome" for the women, here. Their "freedom" is well protected.

ETA: We're not talking child-rearing, here. That's a situation where there's plenty of responsibility for both parents. We're talking about ending a human life and the ramifications of that; not just to the life ended but to those, left behind.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

However Kaliko,

I go out and have sex with three people in one week...

I get pregnant, there is no right or recourse, for any of the men until paternity can be proven which cant be safely done till after the abortion period is over...

So it goes back to a woman who has sex is a terrible person and should have to remain with child because she decided that fucking was her right...And whores should be punished for their enjoyment of a sexual nature....

For me, I let anyone who gets between my legs  before it happens...know what will happen if pregnancy ever happens..

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ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

You gotta be kidding me.  How can you say, with a straight face, that there is no responsibility on the female?  She is the one who faces the medical risks of whatever choices she makes; she is the one who is faced with stigma and disapproval, regardless of her choice; and as for your claim of having her hand in the guy's pocket, well maybe, maybe not.  Having spent a delightful summer in law school doing support enforcement for the AG's office, I have heard every excuse in the book as to why someone is not paying child support.  I have also sat through case after case on the docket where the mother, or the State in the case of mothers who are receiving benefits, try to collect against deadbeat dads.  In many cases, and for many different reasons, it is simply uncollectable.  So, I think it is fair to say that in many cases, it is the female who bears the financial burden also.  To hear you talk, one would think an unwanted pregnancy is a gold mine.
Look, I kind of get what you are saying.  I have had friends with sons who have gotten girls pregnant, who have spent hours arguing with the girls' parents in an attempt to get her to abort.  It does seem unfair.  However, if the basis of your argument is that the woman is getting off scot free, well, that is just stupid.  Again, prevention is the best answer.  That means keeping all avenues of reproductive choice open, contraception, abortion, and education.

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ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr



There's no responsibility or accountability for the female in this equation. She does what she does and if a pregnancy happens? "Oh, well. I'll just take a trip to a local clinic. 'Problem' solved." If she decides to keep the baby and the father doesn't want it, she has the ability to keep her hands in his pockets for up to a quarter of a century.

My point is; there's no "negative outcome" for the women, here. Their "freedom" is well protected.



Peace and comfort,



Michael

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ORIGINAL: Kaliko

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ORIGINAL: SpiritedRadiance

However Kaliko,

I go out and have sex with three people in one week...

I get pregnant, there is no right or recourse, for any of the men until paternity can be proven which cant be safely done till after the abortion period is over...

So it goes back to a woman who has sex is a terrible person and should have to remain with child because she decided that fucking was her right...And whores should be punished for their enjoyment of a sexual nature....

For me, I let anyone who gets between my legs  before it happens...know what will happen if pregnancy ever happens..

Yes, it's a sticky widget, which is why I don't really hold any stance that I would dare dictate onto anyone else. There are truly so many variables.

I do believe, though, that if a woman has sex, she is taking on the responsibility of possible pregnancy. To terminate because the timing isn't convenient is a moral issue for me for not only for my own self but for my treatment of all parties involved.

So...what if I were pregnant and the father-to-be wants me to abort? Is that man then forced into a life that he didn't choose? Is it just the same thing as if I had forced an abortion he didn't choose?

I'll be honest. I don't have a satisfactory answer for that. It seems hypocritical of me, I know. In my heart, I feel that aborting a pregnancy against the wishes of a man and carrying that pregnancy to term against the wishes of a man are two very different things. One may very well impact his soul (if one believes that). The other only cramps his lifestyle.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

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I feel that to use legalilty and proof of fatherhood as argument for abortion is missing the bigger picture in a huge way. But perhaps this statement is an addendum to a more morality-based argument.

I do not. And here is why. What is to prevent a man from forcing a woman into carrying a child to term that she wishes to terminate? He could very well not give a damn about either of them, and this is spite or revenge. It could be that he never slept with the woman at all. By the time the DNA results come back, she could very well be 16 - 20 weeks along.