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Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 7:15:00 PM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		Are God and religion (of any variety) ridicule and parody free zones? Why should religion get special rights and a special status afforded to no other belief systems?

Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children? Or should God and religion be treated on exactly the same basis as any other belief system?

Why should we be asked to automatically respect religious belief systems, when this demand is not made for any other belief systems?

Your thoughts .............................

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 7:44:30 PM   
MissAsylum


Posts: 1863
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Status: offline 		I can only speak for myself here.

However, I do feel that this question paints people who believe in a higher power with a very broad brush.

I believe in God, and I haven't trashed anybody at any point in my life for having a different belief system, or lack thereof. I may not like the person, but never will i treat them with disrespect them based on their religious convictions. May not agree, but never disrespect.

I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion (to say the very least), but I don't think its particularly fair to say that all churches teach anti gay propaganda, because all don't.

Nobody likes being held to a stereotype.

To take an example, I'm a black female. From mass media, here are typical black woman stereotypes (pulled from internet):

Loud
Trashy
Has multiple baby daddies
On crack
Promiscuous
On welfare, wic, and food stamps
Fat
Masculine
Aggressive
Has a victim Mentality
Ghetto
Un-educated
Ugly
Poor
KFC addicted
Low self-esteem
envious of white women

NONE of these apply to me, but this is what many people think when they see my skin color, all because SOME black women conduct themselves in this manner.

I know there is the argument of "you were born that way, you can't help it". I think that's bunk.

We weren't born kinky, but do you like to be disrespected because you are? Nope.

People may not care for the idea of God or religion, but people tend to get put in the crossfire, rather than just God or religion. I'd be well on my way to paying off my car if I had a dollar for every time somebody says very rude or callus things and begin their rants with, "Your God...." or "You Christians/Jews...."

Don't put me and others in the same category of people who do stupid shit in the name of God, which is what it seems to come down to. Those people have proven they do not deserve respect.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 7:47:11 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Are God and religion (of any variety) ridicule and parody free zones? Why should religion get special rights and a special status afforded to no other belief systems?

I would question your premise. Examples abound that religion enjoys no special protection from parody and ridicule. Are you sure you aren't just looking for a "free pass" to parody and ridicule people's beliefs without having them dislike you?

K.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:00:03 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		That depends. Are you asking on behalf of those who currently wish to mock the LDS faith, and all the adherents of it, in any cruel and stupid way they can up with, without being tarred as bigots, or in reference to openly discussing the extremes of Islam, or telling some good "the Prophet walks into a bar with a pig under his arm," jokes?

I'm a free speech kind of guy. It's all fair game, and the speakers right to express themselves, in no way way negates the right of the audience to judge them by it, or to invent new words like, "Mormophobes."

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:02:15 PM   
tweakabelle


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From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		All my life I've been hearing: You must respect other people's religions. There is an expectation in some quarters that religion ought to be accorded respect automatically. There are complaints when someone ridicules and parodies God(s) and religion(s).

I would like this thread to examine this question soberly. Is there any reason why all or any religion or deity ought to be accorded respect automatically? Is there any reason why God and religion are claimed by some to be areas that ought to be beyond ridicule and parody. This status is not accorded to secular belief systems.

So why should deities and religious belief systems be treated any differently to any other belief system?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 2/9/2012 8:08:23 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:12:27 PM   
DarkSteven


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Status: offline 		I try to be open minded.  I do have issues with Mormonism because I consider some of its beliefs to be heretical (e.g., Jesus being polygamous, the idea that men and women can ascend to godhood in the afterlife) and Unitarianism because it IMO is not an actual religion since it has no belief on the existence or nonexistence of God.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:21:25 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

However, I do feel that this question paints people who believe in a higher power with a very broad brush.

[....]

I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion (to say the very least), but I don't think its particularly fair to say that all churches teach anti gay propaganda, because all don't.


The OP said nothing about " people who believe". The OP discussed belief systems and didn't refer at all to individuals who happen to believe in such systems.

Equally the OP did not say that " all churches teach anti gay propaganda". The OP asked "Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children?", which carries quite a different meaning to the meaning you appear to have taken. It is a general question that doesn't refer to any religious belief system or believer in particular, and definitely doesn't say or imply "all churches" are anti-gay.

The OP was phrased in deliberately general terms and referred to "belief systems" in the specific hope of avoiding any of the inferences you have found in it.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:25:15 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

The OP was phrased in deliberately general terms and referred to "belief systems" in the specific hope of avoiding any of the inferences you have found in it.


You wont find that. Its too personal a question, believe it or not. There is no way to have this discussion without turning it personal.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:34:06 PM   
MissAsylum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

All my life I've been hearing: You must respect other people's religions. There is an expectation in some quarters that religion ought to be accorded respect automatically. There are complaints when someone ridicules and parodies God(s) and religion(s).

There are complaints that people believe in a God in the first place. *shrug*

I would like this thread to examine this question soberly.

Has somebody implied/admitted that they are under influence of any substances?

Is there any reason why all or any religion or deity ought to be accorded respect automatically?

Should people be respected automatically if that person hasn't done anything to you? Even if you've never met them?

Is there any reason why God and religion are claimed by some to be areas that ought to be beyond ridicule and parody?
This status is not accorded to secular belief systems.
So why should deities and religious belief systems be treated any differently to any other belief system?

Its claimed to be something without ridicule by some people because some people are stupid. That's it. Not much else to it. Really, it isn't that deep.






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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:40:24 PM   
MissAsylum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

However, I do feel that this question paints people who believe in a higher power with a very broad brush.

[....]

I'm not the biggest fan of organized religion (to say the very least), but I don't think its particularly fair to say that all churches teach anti gay propaganda, because all don't.


The OP said nothing about " people who believe". The OP discussed belief systems and didn't refer at all to individuals who happen to believe in such systems.

Equally the OP did not say that " all churches teach anti gay propaganda". The OP asked "Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children?", which carries quite a different meaning to the meaning you appear to have taken. It is a general question that doesn't refer to any religious belief system or believer in particular, and definitely doesn't say or imply "all churches" are anti-gay.

The OP was phrased in deliberately general terms and referred to "belief systems" in the specific hope of avoiding any of the inferences you have found in it.


Here is where there is problem with what you are asking:

Who came up with religion and churches and to a further extent if you wish to see it that way, God? People. So yes, you are implying that this is about people.

Your general statement does encompass all churches, all belief systems- because its general. Where your OP stated: "Are churches entitled to claim exemptions from anti-hate laws so that they are free to teach anti-gay and anti-queer dogma to children?", Do you state which churches? Some churches? Any churches? All churches?

"Are Americans are a bunch of rednecks?" Ok...which Americans? Some Americans? Any Americans? All Americans?



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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:40:31 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

All my life I've been hearing: You must respect other people's religions...

Generally speaking it is not a wise social policy to ridicule ANYONE's sincerely held beliefs about ANYTHING, if you give a damn about maintaining good social relations with them. If you don't, then by all means heave on. But don't complain about the result. To try to make a case that you SHOULD be able to act like that and NOT reap the consequences is simply to complain that you don't like reality the way it is, and that dammit it should change to suit you.

K.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:41:13 PM   
atursvcMaam


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Status: offline 		It takes too much energy to hate everyone. If it makes you feel better you can chose to call me a racist homophobe. You would be incorrect, but that does not seem to matter any more. Christ preached "love everybody" Christians seem to get really specific at times. I am not so confident as to guess what Ialam teaches. The followers i have known have been quite friendly with me as long as i left their daughters alone.
Take a deep breath, think a pleasant thought and realize that tomorrow this will all be in your past.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:49:54 PM   
TheHeretic


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Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


To try to make a case that you SHOULD be able to act like that and NOT reap the consequences is simply to complain that you don't like reality the way it is, and that dammit it should change to suit you.

K.



Amen!

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:56:52 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		You apparently don't watch late night tv if you think christianity enjoys a parody free zone. Religion is constantly ridiculed .

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 8:57:43 PM   
MissAsylum


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You apparently don't watch late night tv if you think christianity enjoys a parody free zone. Religion is constantly ridiculed .


Yeah, ditto.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:05:19 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

You apparently don't watch late night tv if you think christianity enjoys a parody free zone. Religion is constantly ridiculed .



If you think I'm suggesting anything other than that, then we have a total communication failure. I'm very Christian tolerant, and I love that joke about Joseph saying, "well, alright, but Dammit, he better be the ONLY son of God!"



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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:08:15 PM   
Owner59


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From: Dirty Jersey
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

All my life I've been hearing: You must respect other people's religions...

Generally speaking it is not a wise social policy to ridicule ANYONE's sincerely held beliefs about ANYTHING, if you give a damn about maintaining good social relations with them. If you don't, then by all means heave on. But don't complain about the result. To try to make a case that you SHOULD be able to act like that and NOT reap the consequences is simply to complain that you don't like reality the way it is, and that dammit it should change to suit you.

K.


Why so defensive?

If one`s faith is real and sincere,why be ticked off when questioned or asked to account for it?

Our tradition of respect for other`s beliefs doesn`t mean folks have no right to question them...or you.

Churches and faiths and people of faith are no more exempt from public accountability than other institutions or groups just b/c it`s religion.

This "how dare you" tude is a bit much.


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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:09:28 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		I think Leno and Letterman should start cracking jokes about Muslims as much as they do about Catholics. They won't though.

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:10:14 PM   
Owner59


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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

I think Leno and Letterman should start cracking jokes about Muslims as much as they do about Catholics. They won't though.

So it`s political for you....

Noted.

Bill Maher cracks Muslim jokes all the time.................but get`s hammered by the pseudo righteous rightists when he makes jokes about Christains or anyone who`s god-fearing.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 2/9/2012 9:14:07 PM >

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RE: Special rights for religion? - 2/9/2012 9:14:37 PM   
servantforuse


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Status: offline 		This has nothing to do with politics. The OP seems to think that religion is a parody free zone. I think she is wrong about that.

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