quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

Excuse me if i disagree. When we started our D/s relationship it was agreed that he would be the dominant and I would be the submissive.

I hope we can agree that the bottom is the person having something done to them, and the top is the person who is doing the action. If my dom wants a massage then he is the person who is having something done to him (the bottom) and I am the the person who is doing (the top). He tells me exactly where I am to massage and how hard he wants it. He is topping from the bottom. That is NOT contrary to what we agreed upon with our D/s relationship. It is exactly part of what a D/s relationship is about. He gets to decide and make the decisions whether he is topping at the moment or bottoming.

quote:

ORIGINAL: peppermint

The problem with the phrase topping from the bottom is that it is so easy to assume that tops are all dominants and bottoms are all submissives.  Sorry, but it just isn't so clean cut as that.  If it where the phrase would be dominating from the submissive point of view.  All tops are not dominants.  All bottoms are not subs. Some bottoms may actually be a dominant who enjoys some sort of  "play" done to the dominant.  As in my example, it might be massage.  My dominant makes floggers of various types of leather and fur.  He likes to know what they feel like.  So he has me flog him with a new flogger.....in other words....he is topping from the bottom.  Am I supposed to get all huffy and puffy and tell him that is NOT IN THE CONTRACT?  No.  I do what he tells me and I have learned to flog as directed.  In other words, I am bottoming from the top and he likes it that way at times...whether it is for a massage or to test a new flogger.  Also, there is no pain involved in the flogging I might do to him.  It is sensual, not painful. 

Now, I do understand your idea of what topping from the bottom means.  However, it doesn't really cover what my D/s relationship is all about.  You mention pain and sex being involved with BDSM.  In our relationship sex is not part of our power exchange.  In fact, our sex life is very very very vanilla.  Heck, we have been using the one sexual position we find comfortable for nearly 7 years.  When we actually have a BDSM type scene, it does not end in sex nor does sex become part of it. 

So......as BDSM does not always involve sex for many, topping from the bottom is also not a bad thing for some.  I guess you would have had to go to Midori's lecture on topping, bottoming, dominating, and submitting.  She does not think all tops are dominants nor all bottoms are submissive.  She thinks a masochistic dominant would pair very well with a sadistic submissive.  I happen to agree with her. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana

Grins
Why's it gotta be all one way or another?
Why can't it be like, you know, everything else in the world and be much more complicated than simply cut n dried?
One of life's great altruism's is the notion that you can't play tennis alone.
Topping from the bottom involves:
1-A Dom who can't/won't take charge.
2-A slave/sub who, for whatever reason, won't/can't let go.
3-A combination therein

Sure, he may have an inability to lead/inspire...but I gotta tell ya, from lots and lots of life experience, that you can't teach someone who don't wanna learn and you often can't inspire folks who aren't willing to let go.
So maybe it's on the top. Maybe it's on the bottom. But one thing for sure, we damn well know it's on the both of them.

Now, and here is the disclaimer, we are moving into the opinion zone.

Frankly, I think the main reason this stuff happens is simply because the "Dom" ain't willing to say that "We do things my way or we don't do em." and then actualize.
Lotsa folks make that threat-very few follow through...and in failing to do so, destroy all the credibility they have with the bottom.
But on the flip side, there are folks who just won't let go. They may talk the game, they may even really really want to let go and trust, obey, follow direction...but for whatever reason (Trust issues, prior experiences, childhood issues, whatever) they are unable to surmount that obstacle when push comes to shove.

Just like there are some folks who can't orgasm.
It ain't that lots of em wouldn't love to be able to, but something inside em is wired otherwise.

And I say this because I've dealt with both.
When I was younger, more tentative, less assured in who and what I was/am as a person, as a man, as a dominant, I let things slide way more than I do now. And ended up in situations that weren't all the way topping from the bottom, but had become power struggles, power struggles rooted in my refusal to seize control and assert absolute dominion.

Now, as I've gotten older, more settled, I make things clear from the outset that we either do things my way or there's the door.
I'm not an asshole about it. I don't get upset or angry.
Matter of fact, my feelings aren't even gonna be hurt.
Why would they?
It's nothing personal. It's just that the two of us are looking for vastly different things in a relationship and I know myself well enough to know what does and does not work for me.
And if she don't like that, oh well. She shoulda fucking obeyed.

Now, I know lotsa folks here think I'm way out there, that I'm this uber-strict dude.
But the reality of the situation is that, yes, I am pretty straightforward bout stuff and don't take no gumption re these things, but in general everything I do is designed to make life easier, for me and for her.
I play with people who want to be with me.
Don't wanna be-then cool-don't let the door hit ya on the way out.
No biggee to me.

But if you are here and staying, then there's only one way we are gonna do things. I don't do power struggles. I don't do back and forths. I don't get into debates.
And I do this because it's easier for both of us.
Cuz all that other stuff is emotionally exhausting and I'm way past all the games.
I like calm. I like structure. I like peace n quiet.
I suffer from irrational ideas like "Happy slaves make for happy Masters...and vice versa."

And there's nothing wrong about this...just as there's nothing wrong with anyone who vehemently disagrees.
It don't mean I'm right and/or they are wrong-just means we wouldn't work well together. That's all...just like any other relationship where the parties have differing ideals/goals/values and expectations is doomed to fail also.

So I think that it's a combination of factors. Yes, it can't happen w/o him allowing it...but by the same token, he can't force a surrender that doesn't exist and never will-if he does, the lawyers have a technical term for that sorta behavior-it's called Class A Rape and is a heavy duty felony.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75

this topic is close to my heart, as that was the huge struggles between my xdom and I.
Where if he wants me to do something I am not comfortable doing, and I refuse to do it, if I refuse to break my limits, then I am accused of topping from bottom or being a dominant instead of a submissive.
It gets quite confusing because I really do not identify myself as a dominant, but perhaps I just can't let go enough to simply say yes, no problem to everything and anything.

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ORIGINAL: LizDeluxe
I say most because sometimes it is done in a very clever and covert fashion without the dominant actually realizing it.

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ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
I think that women, regardless of M/D/s can afford to be a lot more demanding in their relationships, regardless.

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ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I do find it interesting that the predominant majority of those who think this is always horrible are female dominants who have male submissives. Whereas the dominants who choose to indulge the sub in this manner, for whatever reason, are male dominants of female submissives who have a long term monogamous relationship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TNDommeK

Greta was talking about breaking limits. that , to Me, is something that a Domme should respect. if limits are discussed up front and He/She accepted her, then He/She accepted her limits as well. now if she states she wants her limits pushed (again upfront) then there is nothing wrong with that. but Greta's example to Me isnt really My idea of topping from the bottom. limits should be respected if they are said upfront, before the relationship is started.