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RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 3:40:46 PM

Iamsemisweet

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From: The Great Northwest, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

y?

Does Medicaid cover birth control? I do believe that would be "yes." In that case, it is me and the taxpayers.

God, I hope Medicaid covers birth control, although I imagine it varies from state to state. Women who are on Medicaid are exactly the ones who need options as to whether to have children or not.

As long as we are talking about Medicaid, DS, why single out birth control? Or do you object to Medicaid paying for all preventative treatments or for diseases that could have been prevented?

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 21

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 3:41:56 PM

hlen5

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Joined: 3/2/2008
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Thank you for elaborating.

But what turn of events has pushed Equal Rights for women to this point now?

- It's ok for any employer to deny healthcare coverage (via contraception) because it's "against his religion"?

- It's OK for a Dr to LIE to his patient if he thinks the TRUTH of his diagnosis might lead to an abortion?

Why this insane backlash?

Has this country time-warped itself to Romania circa the 1980's? Or Afghanistan during the Taliban?

ETA: And heaven help Afghani women, the US is talking with the Taliban and effectively abandoning them again.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 3/15/2012 3:44:29 PM >

(in reply to Marc2b)

Post #: 22

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 3:53:18 PM

Marc2b

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quote:

Thank you for elaborating.

But what turn of events has pushed Equal Rights for women to this point now?

- It's ok for any employer to deny healthcare coverage (via contraception) because it's "against his religion"?

- It's OK for a Dr to LIE to his patient if he thinks the TRUTH of his diagnosis might lead to an abortion?

Why this insane backlash?

Has this country time-warped itself to Romania circa the 1980's? Or Afghanistan during the Taliban?

Because the old evolutionary instincts still pull on us, amplified by thousands of years of tradition, ideology, dogma and just plain habit. Generally speaking, new paradigms engage in a "two steps forward, one step back" pushing contest with the old. I think the fundamentalist Christians (as well as of other religions) know that their worldview is slowly dying and like most threatened cultures they have entrenched themselves and are desperately trying to push back... not unlike a cornered animal lashing out at you.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/15/2012 3:54:32 PM >

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Post #: 23

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 5:17:14 PM

SternSkipper

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quote:

Because the old evolutionary instincts still pull on us, amplified by thousands of years of tradition, ideology, dogma and just plain habit. Generally speaking, new paradigms engage in a "two steps forward, one step back" pushing contest with the old. I think the fundamentalist Christians (as well as of other religions) know that their worldview is slowly dying and like most threatened cultures they have entrenched themselves and are desperately trying to push back... not unlike a cornered animal lashing out at you.

I swear I hve seen this paragraph at the bottom of the screen on a Quicken Loans Commercial...

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Post #: 24

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 6:49:15 PM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
y?
Does Medicaid cover birth control? I do believe that would be "yes." In that case, it is me and the taxpayers.

God, I hope Medicaid covers birth control, although I imagine it varies from state to state. Women who are on Medicaid are exactly the ones who need options as to whether to have children or not.
As long as we are talking about Medicaid, DS, why single out birth control? Or do you object to Medicaid paying for all preventative treatments or for diseases that could have been prevented?

I don't object to Medicaid. I don't have a problem with a State running a health program to help those less fortunate (State, yes; Federal, no). The problem, though, is that having someone else pay for the consequences, the society in general will devolve and stop any responsible actions there were in the first place. It's the whole, "it's easy to spend someone else's money" thing. There are too many people abusing the system. That makes it more difficult for those who truly need the help get the help they need.

Why single out birth control? Gee, let's see. Hilar(ious) Clinton speaking to a Women's group...talking about not letting them make their own decisions for their health and body...hmmm...what could she be talking about? Well, it's abortion and/or birth control. Since abortion has Federal restrictions in the first place (and I don't believe Government has a right to have any say in whether or not a woman can get an abortion; that is, they can neither say they can, nor can they say they can't), this froth is more likely to be about birth control (also accounting for the recent "SlutGate" flap with Limbaugh).

This applies to other things, and both genders.

People on Medicaid have options regarding getting pregnant or not. The guy or the woman could say no. They could do a better job of prevention (and, yes, I know there are no perfect birth control methods outside of permanent or near permanent solutions). The guys could keep their dicks in their pants and the women could keep their pants on. It's tough to get someone pregnant when she doesn't open her legs up and he doesn't get his dick out. Very tough.

I mean, you're not saying that they can't control themselves, are you? You're not saying they are nothing but animals that fuck, are you?

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)

Post #: 25

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 9:55:19 PM

tweakabelle

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One problem with DS's naive argument is that every culture tries to regulate reproduction and associated activities through one means or another.
'
The institution of marriage is one way that the State/culture imposes regulation. In modern societies, States have interests in regulating population for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons - the provision of amenities (schools, hospitals etc) controlling population growth, planning for future growth, urban expansion etc. They also use a variety of methods of to do this - tax policy being one common example.

The position DS articulates focuses on one (sexual) aspect of the question and ignores others where his arguments would apply equally. For example single people commonly (and massively) subsidise married couples - in health care, eduction, tax and a variety of other areas - through tax concessions for families. Yet we hear nothing about this from people who share DS's position, even though the degree of financial inequity is many times greater than in the areas DS focuses upon. If DS's arguments were valid and applied consistently, this ought to figure as a cause for complaint far more often and far more loudly. Yet we hear nothing. All the complaints we hear are centred around sexual behaviour.

To focus on a single element of such regulation (and a very contentious one at that) suggests that there is another reason, as yet unstated by DS, for the persistent interest he and like-minded people have in the area. I can't help wondering why their pronouncements in this area inevitably involve sexual behaviour, and regulating the sexual behaviour of others (usually women) at that.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/15/2012 10:20:41 PM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 10:22:26 PM

Owner59

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When we discuss gays in the military......it always comes down to sex with cons.

Women serving?

No! They`ll be having sex in the fox holes(no punns please).

And with Obama`s rule about covering women`s meds equally.......comes down to cons butting into people`s private lives and private choices......w/ GOP leaders degrading and insulting all women(or at least the slutty ones).

But apparently.......President Obama is/has been forcing republicans to do those those things for a while,even before he became president.....before he was even born.....

Talk about political skills.......

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/15/2012 10:24:50 PM >

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

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Post #: 27

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/15/2012 10:29:51 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet

By the way, you look a little pudgy in your picture. You planning on paying for your own heart attack?

>Cackle< She shoots... she scores!

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Post #: 28

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 4:14:41 AM

DesideriScuri

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
One problem with DS's naive argument is that every culture tries to regulate reproduction and associated activities through one means or another.
The institution of marriage is one way that the State/culture imposes regulation. In modern societies, States have interests in regulating population for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons - the provision of amenities (schools, hospitals etc) controlling population growth, planning for future growth, urban expansion etc. They also use a variety of methods of to do this - tax policy being one common example.

Examples, please?

quote:

The position DS articulates focuses on one (sexual) aspect of the question and ignores others where his arguments would apply equally.

How I could be so silly to post about sexual topics on a site that is all about alternative lifestyles that have quite a bit to do with sexuality, intimacy, and pleasure.

quote:

For example single people commonly (and massively) subsidise married couples - in health care, eduction, tax and a variety of other areas - through tax concessions for families. Yet we hear nothing about this from people who share DS's position, even though the degree of financial inequity is many times greater than in the areas DS focuses upon. If DS's arguments were valid and applied consistently, this ought to figure as a cause for complaint far more often and far more loudly. Yet we hear nothing. All the complaints we hear are centred around sexual behaviour.

Damn, I must have missed the threads on inequalities between families and singles, and the tax implications therein. This thread, however, has to do with "men" keeping "women" down (used the quotes to show that I am speaking in a generality and that not all men are working to keep all women down), including restricting a woman's right to choose regarding her body and her health. Was Clinton making the claim that men are forcing women to have a certain breast size? Hair color/length/style? Is she claiming that men are trying to control exactly what a woman wears? No. She is alluding to abortion (which I have on so many other occasions said I believe Government has no right to make any sort of decision in these areas) and birth control (riding the publicity of slutgate), among other things. I apologize for keeping my posts in line with either the opening post or current trends within the thread.

quote:

To focus on a single element of such regulation (and a very contentious one at that) suggests that there is another reason, as yet unstated by DS, for the persistent interest he and like-minded people have in the area. I can't help wondering why their pronouncements in this area inevitably involve sexual behaviour, and regulating the sexual behaviour of others (usually women) at that.

Yes, I want to regulate the sex behavior of others, especially women. Oh, wait. No. No I don't. I make no case for anyone to have or not have sex. The only "regulating" I want to do is in who is responsible for the consequences of the choices made and actions taken. The ones that make the choices and take the actions are the ones who should bear the responsibility of the consequences (good or bad) of those choices and actions. Period. If you can't accept that responsibility, you shouldn't be making those choices or taking those actions. And, in case you haven't read my other posts, I'm of the opinion that the "baby daddy" is as responsible as the pregnant woman for that pregnancy and should bear as much responsibility as the pregnant woman (provided the sexual actions were consensual).

To end the nonsense that is being leveled at me, I hereby declare that I am for ending all tax credits, deductions and loopholes. Across the board. Will it hurt me? In the sense that I will pay higher taxes, absolutely. What would I like to see? A tax on consumption instead of earnings. Why? Because that puts the power into the individual's hands as to how much they pay in taxes. You keep all your earnings and then get to spend those dollars as you will. You want more spending power? Earn more money. You want to pay fewer taxes? Consume less. And, so my words are not twisted and turned, I have yet to read a plan for a consumption tax that I support 100% because I still believe that charitable organizations (religious or non-religious) should not pay taxes and food should maintain its tax exempt status.

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 29

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 7:56:34 AM

Owner59

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From: Dirty Jersey
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" The ones that make the choices and take the actions are the ones who should bear the responsibility of the consequences (good or bad) of those choices and actions. Period. "

I`d rather someone to poor to afford the 3 grand a year for contraception pills get them for free over footing the bill for raising a kid or kids to adulthood.

And the notion that people will and should stop having sex..............is as stupid as it is naive.The world doesn`t work that way,it`s not a con-fantasy land where cons get to bully others and play make pretend.

Now if the stupid people want to take this further down Asshole Lane and say that the kid(s) must suffer the "consequences" b/c of the parents and through no fault of their own(outside of being born),then you`ve stepped out of "my rights" into hurting others and normal Americans aren`t going to let that happen.

< Message edited by Owner59 -- 3/16/2012 7:58:40 AM >

_____________________________

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President Obama

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 30

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 8:10:55 AM

Iamsemisweet

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I'll ask again, DS , why just sex? Why not have tax payer assisted plans, like Medicaid, refuse diabetes treatment to obese patients? They made bad food decisions, after all, so fuck 'em. Or refuse treatment for respiratory ailments to smokers? The dumb asses shouldn't have smoked. I would guess that the health care costs for obesity and smoking far outstrips the cost of paying for birth control. Birth control, in fact, results in health care cost savings, since pregnancy is expensive. Yes, I know you think women should keep their legs closed, but in the real world I doubt even the most hardened person would say that women should be denied medical care for pregnancy if they can't afford to pay for it themselves.

Hell, why not take it a step farther and require people who receive public assistance to post a daily food log, so we can all critique their food choices? Personally, I find it more offensive that my tax dollars go towards buying unhealthy processed food than birth control.

My guess is, you are not getting any, so you expect others should be celibate too. Doesn't work that way in the real world. Your limiting all this " responsibility or pay for yourself" talk to sex, though, is pretty incredible, in light of the fact that so many medical conditions are related to bad choices. Guess you don't have the same hang ups about food that you do about sex, though.

_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to Owner59)

Post #: 31

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 9:00:06 AM

farglebargle

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quote:

"The ones that make the choices and take the actions are the ones who should bear the responsibility of the consequences (good or bad) of those choices and actions. Period.

Yeah, that's the kind of attitude I understand Jesus hates.

< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/16/2012 9:03:41 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 32

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 9:03:17 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Because the old evolutionary instincts still pull on us, amplified by thousands of years of tradition, ideology, dogma and just plain habit. Generally speaking, new paradigms engage in a "two steps forward, one step back" pushing contest with the old. I think the fundamentalist Christians (as well as of other religions) know that their worldview is slowly dying and like most threatened cultures they have entrenched themselves and are desperately trying to push back... not unlike a cornered animal lashing out at you.

This is exactly what I've been saying for some time now. Nothing fights harder, is nastier, than a dumb animal that's been cornered and is facing death.

_____________________________

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Post #: 33

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 9:06:21 AM

farglebargle

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I say we next move onto pulling non-profit benefits from any "Church" operation which isn't an actual CHURCH. All that other property goes back on the tax rolls, and we'll be nice about it and forgo any back taxes on it, but we want it on time going forward and without any more bullshit.

You want to compete with real businesses in a capitalist free market without artificial government subsidies?

Welcome to the free market!

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Post #: 34

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 9:25:02 AM

erieangel

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Jesus fucking Christ DS, you sound like poor people, of which there are a lot more of them these days then since the Great Depression, should be celibate, even if they are married. I was poor when I first got married and because my husband and I both worked minimum wage jobs that did not offer health insurance, we qualified for Medicaid--and I used the pill to avoid pregnancy because we didn't want children right away. In your view, it sounds like because we were poor we should have a) not have gotten married when we did or b) not have enjoyed our marriage bed. That is just a fucked up world view.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)

Post #: 35

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 9:26:36 AM

LaTigresse

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Indeed it is.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to erieangel)

Post #: 36

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 10:54:47 AM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59

Hillary Clinton:

“Why extremists always focus on women remains a mystery to me,” she told an adoring crowd at the Women in the World Summit at Lincoln Center on Saturday. “But they all seem to. It doesn’t matter what country they’re in or what religion they claim. They want to control women. They want to control how we dress. They want to control how we act. They even want to control the decisions we make about our own health and bodies.

“Yes,” she continued to applause, “it is hard to believe that even here at home, we have to stand up for women’s rights and reject efforts to marginalize any one of us, because America needs to set an example for the entire world.”

In some kind of insane bout of mass misogyny, Republicans are hounding out the women voters — including Republicans and independents — who helped them gain control of the House in 2010.

Senator Olympia Snowe, who’s fed up and leaving Congress, told The Washington Post’s Karen Tumulty that “it feels as if we are going back to another era,” warning that Republicans could drive women into Democratic arms."

Thank you Hillary and thank you Maurreen Dowd.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/opinion/dowd-dont-tread-on-us.html

Well, it all boils down to money. "Womens Rights" and Obama care is and will be empowered by public money. Since this stuff cost money all this is a moot point because it ain't happening and neither is Obama care because we are broke. It's a fantasy sold to get votes; snake oil.

Cause we are broke, we are very broke and well be broke for a very long time.

Therefore there will be not ANY entitlements in just a few short years because, you guessed it I am sure, we are broke, we will be broke for a very long time, we cannot and will not continue to borrow money much past Jan of next year no matter who wins the election because everyone knows we are broke, and that we will be broke for a very long time, and everyone else will be broke if they continue to loan us money.

After we stop borrowing money from China, there will be no money except to pay back China and paint to keep existing military hardware from rusting and nothing for welfare except for soup kitchens. So, people will be in soup lines who used to be on welfare and there will be little interest in "womens rights" by women who are hard put to feed their families and are looking around for a 50s style working family oriented man all of a sudden instead of reading about what Mrs. Clinton said lately.

So, I imagine in the long run the GOP taking us back to the good ole years when we did not need entitlements seems to be a spendid idea no matter what election loser, Monica "wanna be or should be", throw a bitch fit in a foreign country Mrs. Clinton said, it's not important because we are broke, we are very broke and she won't give you the damn money herself when the checks stop flowing from U.S; Just ask her and see if she gives a damn what your rights are then.

Yes, "Thank you Hillary and thank you Maurreen Dowd". Thanks for snake oil.

< Message edited by Arturas -- 3/16/2012 11:11:59 AM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 11:14:09 AM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

there will be little interest in "womens rights" by women who are hard put to feed their families and are looking around for a 50s style working family oriented man

Have anybody particular in mind?

K.

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Post #: 38

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 11:21:23 AM

Arturas

Posts: 3245
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arturas

there will be little interest in "womens rights" by women who are hard put to feed their families and are looking around for a 50s style working family oriented man

Have anybody particular in mind?

K.

Nope. Unless you are looking for the "job", you look "fifties".

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Post #: 39

RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 11:25:12 AM

LaTigresse

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I wonder how the little woman survived on her own without any of those government 'entitlements'...

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Arturas)

Post #: 40

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