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RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 5:03:10 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

One problem with DS's naive argument is that every culture tries to regulate reproduction and associated activities through one means or another.
'
The institution of marriage is one way that the State/culture imposes regulation. In modern societies, States have interests in regulating population for a number of perfectly legitimate reasons - the provision of amenities (schools, hospitals etc) controlling population growth, planning for future growth, urban expansion etc. They also use a variety of methods of to do this - tax policy being one common example.

The position DS articulates focuses on one (sexual) aspect of the question and ignores others where his arguments would apply equally. For example single people commonly (and massively) subsidise married couples - in health care, eduction, tax and a variety of other areas - through tax concessions for families. Yet we hear nothing about this from people who share DS's position, even though the degree of financial inequity is many times greater than in the areas DS focuses upon. If DS's arguments were valid and applied consistently, this ought to figure as a cause for complaint far more often and far more loudly. Yet we hear nothing. All the complaints we hear are centred around sexual behaviour.

To focus on a single element of such regulation (and a very contentious one at that) suggests that there is another reason, as yet unstated by DS, for the persistent interest he and like-minded people have in the area. I can't help wondering why their pronouncements in this area inevitably involve sexual behaviour, and regulating the sexual behaviour of others (usually women) at that.



Thank you for posting this. I feel like this every time money is taken out of my pocket to subsidize day care and schools. I don't have any children. I was responsible about that. Why am *I* paying for your choice to have and raise children? And then I think, "Do I really want an uneducated population? Do I really want children left at home without instruction? Do I really want poor people to have to stay in the cycle of poverty? No, of course not." But it does kind of grate on my nerves that people get pissy about paying for birth control and abortions but not about expecting people like me to pay for the follow through. Do I feel vehemently about this? Nah. It's just something that goes through my mind.

I feel the same way about insurance paying for male pattern baldness medication but not for birth control pills for endometriosis. (I know it's an extreme example, but there are more minor ones that occur all the time in that industry that drastically affect the people involved who can't get the very care they need.)

best,
sunshine

_____________________________

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/16/2012 5:09:54 PM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
" The ones that make the choices and take the actions are the ones who should bear the responsibility of the consequences (good or bad) of those choices and actions. Period. "
I`d rather someone to poor to afford the 3 grand a year for contraception pills get them for free over footing the bill for raising a kid or kids to adulthood.
And the notion that people will and should stop having sex..............is as stupid as it is naive.The world doesn`t work that way,it`s not a con-fantasy land where cons get to bully others and play make pretend.


Oh, so people have no control, then? People can't control themselves? If that is what you are saying, then there can be no consent, as we are all driven solely by our loins. I'm sorry you don't carry the same beliefs in the power of the human mind that I do, but if people can't control themselves, make good decisions, and be responsible, isn't it nothing more than enabling them when we allow the responsibilities to be shifted off those making the decisions?

quote:


Now if the stupid people want to take this further down Asshole Lane and say that the kid(s) must suffer the "consequences" b/c of the parents and through no fault of their own(outside of being born),then you`ve stepped out of "my rights" into hurting others and normal Americans aren`t going to let that happen.


So, what you are saying is that if two people aren't responsible to care for their scion, it is "my" fault, or that "I" am hurting them?

I think I would find your explanation and proof of that most interesting.


No......read closer.....I`m say your need to punish or put the "consequences" of the parents on the children is too many bites on the apple.

Newborns, toddlers and younsters who are here at no fault of their own are NOT going to be your scapegoats.

_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 5:12:01 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		People who don't want the broadest, healthiest, best educated population possible are FAKE CAPITALISTS.

REAL CAPITALISTS welcome the competition provided when EVERYONE has a chance to maximize their potential, and REAL CAPITALISTS don't mind paying for public education and healthcare to ensure that opportunity, because they're not scared little pussies PRETENDING to be Capitalists but really just concerned with covering their asses and hoping no-one finds out they're full of shit.

But we're onto their shit. Fuck those cowards.

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 9:05:34 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
So, what you are saying is that if two people aren't responsible to care for their scion, it is "my" fault, or that "I" am hurting them?
I think I would find your explanation and proof of that most interesting.

No......read closer.....I`m say your need to punish or put the "consequences" of the parents on the children is too many bites on the apple.
Newborns, toddlers and younsters who are here at no fault of their own are NOT going to be your scapegoats.


Yeah, you're not reading close enough. You are still enabling the parents. I "get" that it's not the kids' faults. I do. But, your claim that I am hurting them is way off base. It isn't me. It's the parents' fault for not caring for the kids.

And, here we now have a real Catch-22. A mother or father has the right to choose whether or not they are going to be a parent to their offspring. I don't want kids to have their lives screwed over because their progenitors weren't adults. I also don't want to enable the progenitors to not be adults while making adult choices.

How do we force progenitors to be adults and actually parent their progeny? How is morally or ethically correct to allow progenitors to be derelict of their parenting duties, shifting the burden onto more responsible adults?

Where does their right to choose their responsibilities end? Where does their right to choose MY responsibilities end?

Am I one of the incredibly few that sees that enabling people to offload "undesirable consequences" only results in more people offloading more "undesirable consequences?"

Let's take it to the extreme. Who is going to pay for the health care for all those who are unable to afford health care if we all quit working? Government. Where is Government going to get the money?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 9:34:43 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How do we force progenitors to be adults and actually parent their progeny?

A parenting exam would work. Give somebody who's pregnant and their partner* a written test, and make them have an abortion if they fail. Three fails and they get the snip so the problem won't arise again.

*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 9:38:58 AM   
Owner59


Posts: 17033
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Dirty Jersey
Status: offline 		Ok......starving kids into malnutrition would be a good way not to "enable" people.......


Anything else, professor?


_____________________________

"As for our common defense, we reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals"

President Obama

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 10:55:40 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How do we force progenitors to be adults and actually parent their progeny?

A parenting exam would work. Give somebody who's pregnant and their partner* a written test, and make them have an abortion if they fail. Three fails and they get the snip so the problem won't arise again.

*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)


Would it be an automatic snip for the man who says, "I don't have any kids,....... at least none that I know of, anyway (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!)!"??

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 11:48:29 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Owner59
Ok......starving kids into malnutrition would be a good way not to "enable" people.......
Anything else, professor?


Thanks for not answering the question. If you'd actually like to answer the question, that would be "most appreciated."

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Owner59)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 2:41:29 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
How do we force progenitors to be adults and actually parent their progeny?

A parenting exam would work. Give somebody who's pregnant and their partner* a written test, and make them have an abortion if they fail. Three fails and they get the snip so the problem won't arise again.

*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)


Would it be an automatic snip for the man who says, "I don't have any kids,....... at least none that I know of, anyway (nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!)!"??


Yep.
In most of these cases the guy needs a snip a lot more urgently than any of his victims, frankly.

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 2:43:27 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Am I one of the incredibly few that sees that enabling people to offload "undesirable consequences" only results in more people offloading more "undesirable consequences?"

Let's take it to the extreme. Who is going to pay for the health care for all those who are unable to afford health care if we all quit working? Government. Where is Government going to get the money?
Where do you see that? What I see I that the most theocratic states have the lowest educational attainment, the highest poverty and crime rates, and having lived in a couple of 'em, "parental responsibility" mostly consists of regular beatings and leaving them alone with sketchy relatives while they go to the bar to drink the grocery money and complain about liberals.

I guess that's more desirable consequences.

The good news is, they pay a lot less taxes while receiving a lot more federal benefits - and that's the national model you propose, "taken to the extreme".

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(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 2:55:17 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
quote:

Am I one of the incredibly few that sees that enabling people to offload "undesirable consequences" only results in more people offloading more "undesirable consequences?"
Let's take it to the extreme. Who is going to pay for the health care for all those who are unable to afford health care if we all quit working? Government. Where is Government going to get the money?


Where do you see that? What I see I that the most theocratic states have the lowest educational attainment, the highest poverty and crime rates, and having lived in a couple of 'em, "parental responsibility" mostly consists of regular beatings and leaving them alone with sketchy relatives while they go to the bar to drink the grocery money and complain about liberals.
I guess that's more desirable consequences.
The good news is, they pay a lot less taxes while receiving a lot more federal benefits - and that's the national model you propose, "taken to the extreme".


Yeah, because there is no reason to think that people would make other choices and be more responsible if motivated to do so. There is no motivation to do so now.

Look at a business that is "too big to fail." They actually have incentive to take bigger risks. With bigger risks chasing bigger rewards, if they "win," they get bigger rewards. If they "lose," they get bailed out anyway.

Social Security: Originally brought in as a social safety net for those who weren't able to save enough for retirement. Now? It is part of the plan, or the plan for retirement. It is no longer a safety net. Medicare is the same thing.

When you have social programs, you will have people actually planning on using them. They will be abused and will lose their planned "safety net" status.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 3:27:09 PM   
Iamsemisweet


Posts: 3651
Joined: 4/9/2011
From: The Great Northwest, USA
Status: offline 		Again DS, despite all your bullshit and going on about responsibility, you can't explain why it is only reproductive rights that are being singled out. What about the myriad other stupid choices people make that end up costing other people money. I am fit and make healthy choices, why should my insurance rates be higher because I am in a risk pool with people who don't? Or why should people who are determined to dig their grave with a fork get Medicaid?
Do you really believe these GOP assholes are making the kind of laws they do because they are trying to promote responsibility? If that were true, why wouldn't they be proposing extra taxes on junk food?
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve [


Yeah, because there is no reason to think that people would make other choices and be more responsible if motivated to do so. There is no motivation to do so now.

Look at a business that is "too big to fail." They actually have incentive to take bigger risks. With bigger risks chasing bigger rewards, if they "win," they get bigger rewards. If they "lose," they get bailed out anyway.

Social Security: Originally brought in as a social safety net for those who weren't able to save enough for retirement. Now? It is part of the plan, or the plan for retirement. It is no longer a safety net. Medicare is the same thing.

When you have social programs, you will have people actually planning on using them. They will be abused and will lose their planned "safety net" status.


_____________________________

Alice: But I don't want to go among mad people.
The Cat: Oh, you can't help that. We're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.
Alice: How do you know I'm mad?
The Cat: You must be. Or you wouldn't have come here.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 3:36:12 PM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline 		Why is it people arent putting up a noise against having to pay for rapists, murderers, molesters, pedes, abusers? killers who drive drunk and kill...name your favourite crime...paying for them to be housed, fed, for their terms, but wont pay for birth control?let alone abortion. I understand the moral issue, I dont agree with it, but I understand it. They made their choices. why should crims get a pass. Why is it morally wrong to support birth control, but not feeding killers of people who have lives????
Murder is illegal, Abortion is legal.


It has NOTHING to do with money, it has to do with controlling women and their inner organs, EOS

_____________________________

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(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/17/2012 6:26:37 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)


Nah, that's all wrong. What you do is you just UNCONDITIONALLY accept the word of the mother about who the father is, and until he PROVES OTHERWISE, on his own dime, then he's stuck with 18 years of paying for it...

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 1:01:36 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Again DS, despite all your bullshit and going on about responsibility, you can't explain why it is only reproductive rights that are being singled out.


Singled out by whom? By me? I have explained that over and over.

quote:


What about the myriad other stupid choices people make that end up costing other people money. I am fit and make healthy choices, why should my insurance rates be higher because I am in a risk pool with people who don't?


That's between you and your insurer. If you don't like your risk pool, negotiate for a better one.

quote:


Or why should people who are determined to dig their grave with a fork get Medicaid?
Do you really believe these GOP assholes are making the kind of laws they do because they are trying to promote responsibility? If that were true, why wouldn't they be proposing extra taxes on junk food?


You are completely missing what I am saying. If people are digging "their grave with a fork," shouldn't it be their responsibility to deal with those consequences? Absolutely!

Got some huffer out there frying his brain cells? Let "huff daddy" deal with his own situation.

Smoke? Your responsibility. Although government has done damn near everything but make tobacco illegal. I believe the only reason they haven't is because of Big Tobacco's $$.

I am against seat belt and helmet laws, too. I don't believe government has any authority to demand we do those things. I won't argue they aren't smart to do, because they are. I only argue that government doesn't have the authority to force us.

What part of my supporting personal responsibility are you not getting?

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Iamsemisweet)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 4:33:42 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

I am against seat belt and helmet laws, too. I don't believe government has any authority to demand we do those things.


They don't demand it. You AGREED to it when you signed your driver's licence application. Next time, read the fine print. Caveat Emptor.


< Message edited by farglebargle -- 3/18/2012 4:35:04 AM >

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 6:06:46 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Why is it people arent putting up a noise against having to pay for rapists, murderers, molesters, pedes, abusers? killers who drive drunk and kill...name your favourite crime...paying for them to be housed, fed, for their terms, but wont pay for birth control?let alone abortion. I understand the moral issue, I dont agree with it, but I understand it. They made their choices. why should crims get a pass. Why is it morally wrong to support birth control, but not feeding killers of people who have lives????
Murder is illegal, Abortion is legal.
It has NOTHING to do with money, it has to do with controlling women and their inner organs, EOS


Well, gee, Lucylastic, perhaps it hasn't been germane to the thread to post my views on the Death Penalty and Life Sentence with no possibility of parole. If you'd like to know them, please do start a thread about them.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 6:09:17 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)

Nah, that's all wrong. What you do is you just UNCONDITIONALLY accept the word of the mother about who the father is, and until he PROVES OTHERWISE, on his own dime, then he's stuck with 18 years of paying for it...


And we're back to the "Bill Gates is my baby-daddy" discussion.

Interesting to see that you support "guilty until proven innocent" style law. Just be careful what you wish for there.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 6:18:57 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: Iamsemisweet
Again DS, despite all your bullshit and going on about responsibility, you can't explain why it is only reproductive rights that are being singled out.


Singled out by whom? By me? I have explained that over and over.

quote:


What about the myriad other stupid choices people make that end up costing other people money. I am fit and make healthy choices, why should my insurance rates be higher because I am in a risk pool with people who don't?


That's between you and your insurer. If you don't like your risk pool, negotiate for a better one.

quote:


Or why should people who are determined to dig their grave with a fork get Medicaid?
Do you really believe these GOP assholes are making the kind of laws they do because they are trying to promote responsibility? If that were true, why wouldn't they be proposing extra taxes on junk food?


You are completely missing what I am saying. If people are digging "their grave with a fork," shouldn't it be their responsibility to deal with those consequences? Absolutely!

Got some huffer out there frying his brain cells? Let "huff daddy" deal with his own situation.

Smoke? Your responsibility. Although government has done damn near everything but make tobacco illegal. I believe the only reason they haven't is because of Big Tobacco's $$.

I am against seat belt and helmet laws, too. I don't believe government has any authority to demand we do those things. I won't argue they aren't smart to do, because they are. I only argue that government doesn't have the authority to force us.

What part of my supporting personal responsibility are you not getting?

couple of thoughts if seat belts are a free choice then insurance companies should be free to deny you to insure yourself.
But you cant go out on the road without insurance cause otherwise you cant pay for damage done to another like puttin someone in a wheelchair. Or you must have onesided insurance maybe.
About tobacco I believe its a billion dollar biz here 1 billion about.
Holland is a pretty big producer, every worker is makin 1 million gross, that would be about 1000 workers in that industry.
Imagine how much cannabis would make since it has a lot of medical uses as well
you cant say that of alcohol or tobacco.

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Don’t Tread on Us....... - 3/18/2012 6:38:30 AM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
*(If they can't name the father, that's an automatic fail, I'd think)

Nah, that's all wrong. What you do is you just UNCONDITIONALLY accept the word of the mother about who the father is, and until he PROVES OTHERWISE, on his own dime, then he's stuck with 18 years of paying for it...


And we're back to the "Bill Gates is my baby-daddy" discussion.

Interesting to see that you support "guilty until proven innocent" style law. Just be careful what you wish for there.


Well, if you're going to treat women as too dumb to control their own lives, isn't just taking them at their word because they're too stupid to lie a natural extension of that?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to DesideriScuri)
Profile   Post #: 80
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