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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 3:14:04 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Musicmystery

Socialist Volunteerism?

And you accuse me of spin.

What do you call it when the government gets into the means of distribution, like when they have all these 'volunteers' doing things which The Free Market can do?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Post #: 21

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:08:48 PM

TheHeretic

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How about good citizenship, Fargle? Everybody serves, somehow.

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Post #: 22

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:10:01 PM

farglebargle

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It's called paying your taxes, and voting. Everyone here cherishes their opportunity to pay taxes, don't they?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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Post #: 23

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:17:57 PM

vincentML

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

We pay our military, don't we, Vincent? Now we can certainly have forms of national service that don't pay any better than jury duty, say for the on-call sandbag stackers of a hypothetical community civil response force, but I'd have this thing huge enough that they are replacing a goodly chunk of the workforce across all levels of government employment.

Edit for clarity - that's all levels of jurisdiction - city, county, state, federal - not all levels of a particular organization.

So, Rich, is this any different than Newt's replacing school janitors with students? Ahh, you cons . . . always looking for cheap labor. So, what would we have to offer the workforce you intend to replace?

I worked many years with young people and I can attest with confidence that conscripting them into involuntary servitude would be highly wasteful and inefficient.

< Message edited by vincentML -- 3/17/2012 4:20:16 PM >

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Post #: 24

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:19:46 PM

TheHeretic

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And I'm talking about people being personally invested in public service. You know, that whole "government of the people, by the people, for the people," thing.

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Post #: 25

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:25:55 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And I'm talking about people being personally invested in public service. You know, that whole "government of the people, by the people, for the people," thing.

How dare you (May I call you "Rich"?) suggest that we should turn to the very foundations of our society in order to govern/run that society. That's a very radical idea, my friend.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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Post #: 26

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:37:28 PM

TheHeretic

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Sure thing.

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Post #: 27

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:47:06 PM

DaddySatyr

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Thank you.

Rich, you and I agree more often than not but did you see my post about the possible confrontation with the 5th amendment?

Allow me to tell you a bit of a story as an underlying reason:

My uncle, Bob (my de facto father. The man who really raised me other than basic needs), was in the Air Force ROTC while in college (I think it was 1955 or so until 1959 or '60). Hell, he was a member of (I think it was called) the "Pershing Rifle Team". He was (according to his records) exemplary and would have made a fine officer. ETA: He planned on enlisting.

He had always planned to continue his post-graduate education all the way to PhD because he wanted to be a college professor.

When he graduated (2 days after he graduated) from under-grad, he received a letter from selective service. While he easily could have gotten a deferment (they were pretty standard for reasons of education, back then). He had made up his mind that the government did not have the right to draft its citizens; not only because not everyone is cut out for military service but because it violated their liberties. He never went further than that with me as far as an explanation.

Now, again, I never gave it much thought as I looked forward to the DLI and the military is one of the few ways to get there but, lately, I have given it some thought. Does my interpretation of the 5th amendment impact your thoughts in any way?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

< Message edited by DaddySatyr -- 3/17/2012 5:03:55 PM >

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A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Post #: 28

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 4:56:15 PM

farglebargle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

And I'm talking about people being personally invested in public service. You know, that whole "government of the people, by the people, for the people," thing.

Well, let's get some 25 year old kids into Congress. That's the lower limit, right? So why are all these rich old guys there?

_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 29

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 5:03:47 PM

Edwynn

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Austria and Switzerland are the only two remaining that still have conscription (aside from Israel, of course), if I recall, and both have a civil service option. Germany, Sweden and one or two others only went voluntary within the last two years, the former also having a CS option.

One thing that made any of it more acceptable than in the US is that they all required active duty for anywhere from 18 weeks to 6 months, with 6-8 years of reserve beyond that, some being partially active reserve, some not.

In the US armed forces 2 years is the minimum active duty, not counting basic training and job school, and only the army and navy have any significant number of those options. Most enlistments are 4 years or more active duty. That's a big commitment. Whatever duration of active duty, eight years is the total commitment including post separation reserve of whatever sort.

If there were an 8-12 month active option with 6 year max. inactive reserve obligation I bet there'd be a lot more enlistments.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/17/2012 5:07:27 PM >

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 5:21:47 PM

TheHeretic

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Michael (if I may), I don't see a problem with the Fifth at all. Or with the 13th for that matter. In an earlier clause, the Fifth makes exception for the militia, and I don't think anyone has ever used either to successfully evade that awful imposition of civic duty that comes with a jury summons. This is an idea of mine that has been kicking around for a while. I've posted on a possible framework before, and I'll see if I can find that.

An obligation to perform some form of national service or an acceptable alternative, equally applied to all. I'm sure somebody would run to the Supreme Court, but I don't think the Court would call it slavery.

(in reply to DaddySatyr)

Post #: 31

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 5:28:39 PM

Aylee

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

If there were an 8-12 month active option with 6 year max. inactive reserve obligation I bet there'd be a lot more enlistments.

That is just not enough time to teach all of the things that a Citizen soldier / professional soldier needs to know. Now if you just want legionnaires. . .

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Post #: 32

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 5:30:25 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Michael (if I may), I don't see a problem with the Fifth at all. Or with the 13th for that matter. In an earlier clause, the Fifth makes exception for the militia, and I don't think anyone has ever used either to successfully evade that awful imposition of civic duty that comes with a jury summons. This is an idea of mine that has been kicking around for a while. I've posted on a possible framework before, and I'll see if I can find that.

An obligation to perform some form of national service or an acceptable alternative, equally applied to all. I'm sure somebody would run to the Supreme Court, but I don't think the Court would call it slavery.

Of course you can call me Michael. I'm your junior, I believe? I'm going on 48 years old.

Jury duty is not military service. The two are vastly different. I'm sure you agree with that? I also think jury duty is a responsibility of citizenship and other than monetary factors, I don't know why people avoid it. I served on two and loved it.

I agree, in theory, with a national obligation but, I would think that the choices of how to serve would have to be very vast.

Could you imagine (for example) demanding that a young member of PETA who is trained in chemistry/medicine (whatever the hell it would be called) to be "forced" to do animal research for the CDC? Oy! The outcry (and rightly so)!

Again, as long as we could find a place for all that wouldn't be objectionable on some grounds, I would be for the idea. But, that gets into a lot of red tape/beurocracy/and enacting more laws. As a Libertarian, I am not in favor of any more laws than are absolutely necessary.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Post #: 33

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 5:37:25 PM

TheHeretic

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Just turned 45, here.

I sent you a link on the other side.

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Post #: 34

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 6:19:42 PM

DaddySatyr

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Happy Birthday!

Yeah, I read that entire thread (I had to un-hide some "dead weight" to keep up with the flow). Like I said; I agree as long as we are not forcing young people into truly awful situations. I have to say that military, police, prison guards, etc. should not be an area for compulsory service. Those are jobs that one really must be cut out to do and for which they must have a passion (I think).

But, surely, anyone can spend a year, pushing a broom or shoveling snow and making $10.00 per hour before going off to college (or before using their degree in the private sector)? I don't really have an issue with that. I support it, on it's face.

To get back to cops, military, etc.; I think those would be the kind of things that we should offer like what I suggested with law school. You want to be a cop? Great! We'll train you, get all your paperwork done, uniform and arm you, supply you with a patrol vehicle and $30,000 per year for 5 years. You'll patrol Cleveland or the South Bronx or Detroit. It'll suck. You'll hate it.

After the 5 years, not only will you have the education but you'll have 5 years of OJT and experience that will help you garner even more money when you go off on your own to greener LEO pastures.

I do not begrudge LEOs or Firefighters the amount of money they make. Nor, to a large extent, do I begrudge them their retirement packages. They work in jobs where their life could be at risk on any given day that they report for duty.

No, what kills me is the other municiple/county/state/federal unions that have managed to carve themselves a "me too" CBA. How often do garbage men put their lives on the line to protect us? Sure, I knew a guy that lost his arm and that's a tragedy but he didn't lose his arm, protecting us. He lost his arm because he wasn't vigilent about his own work safety.

I wouldn't be opposed to compulsory national service that A) served a real need that would alleviate some of the tax burden of government waste B) offered a very wide variety of choices as to where people got to "serve their time" C) offered "high-skilled" training to those that wish to be indentured for more than 2 years.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Post #: 35

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 6:50:28 PM

DaNewAgeViking

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And too, consider that A) we can't afford any more wars, and B) modern warfare has evolved away from the 'blitzkreig' our armed forces were trained in. Wars of the near future will be nasty guerella affairs which will need relatively small numbers of highly skilled specialists rather than massive units. The major downsizing of the military and the emphasis on drones and special forces reflects this. Under those circumstances, a draft is counter productive since it burdens the military with masses of useless cannon fodder, and creates public resistance - thus playing into our enemies' most effective strategy.

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Post #: 36

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 6:55:13 PM

DaddySatyr

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Well, I disagree with the modern trend in warfare; for a lot of reasons.

Guerilla wars are almost always a lot more protracted time-wise than is reasonable.

Smart bombs, etc. take away some of the horrid facts of war that make it something to be avoided. Have you ever watched the original Star Trek? See if you can find an episode called: "A Taste Of Armegeddon". Apply it to today's trend in warfare. It will make you think, I guarantee it.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

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Post #: 37

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 6:59:21 PM

erieangel

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However, if the talk of war with Iran becomes actual war with Iran, we'll need the draft in order to give our existing service men and women a break which they rightly deserve.

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Post #: 38

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 7:08:38 PM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
If there were an 8-12 month active option with 6 year max. inactive reserve obligation I bet there'd be a lot more enlistments.

That is just not enough time to teach all of the things that a Citizen soldier / professional soldier needs to know. Now if you just want legionnaires. . .

I'm sure it's not, for the total of all that a soldier needs. But that's how it's done in very Euro country, including Switzerland. I'm talking about a minimum active service, not what is needed for actual deployment. All the Euro countries train well beyond the minimum for deployment into actual hostilities. I think the idea is to get them through camp and job training then a few months beyond that in non-combat service so they get the full picture of how the service works. When/if the time comes for call-up, the further training and prep don't take as long. Remember, most all this is/was under a full conscirpt situation, so it makes more sense there.

In at least half the countries mentioned before, regular active reserve is required for at least two years after separation from initial active duty. Keep in mind too, just as with US forces, a decent sized ongoing active duty roster of regulars and others choosing to stay on active for 4-6 years are always in place.

(in reply to Aylee)

Post #: 39

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 7:09:18 PM

DaNewAgeViking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Guerilla wars are almost always a lot more protracted time-wise than is reasonable.

Smart bombs, etc. take away some of the horrid facts of war that make it something to be avoided.

True, but the object in war is not to run out the clock. Nor is it a question of popularity - that is our great weakness, and one which our enemies apply regularly, eg Viet Nam, Somalia, and now Afghanistan. War has to be judged on whether it is essential to the national survival, and whether there is any other realistic option. If a war cannot be justified on those terms, then those who start them need to be brought to justice (especially including our own leaders). If a war can / must be justified, then you want to do it as painlessly to ourselves as possible. Having the Seals hunting the Taliban though the hills of Pakistan for ten years would be a lot less painful for us than what we have now - and they would have a realistic prospect of winning.

And, yes, I am familiar with 'Taste of Armageddeon', and demonstrates the failed 'containment' policy in full.

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Post #: 40

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