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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/17/2012 11:52:31 PM

mynxkat

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Your proposal still sets up a diametrically opposed two-tiered system of residency that is ... well ... I wonder how people would take to being cecond-class (non-)citizens?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

The best answer I can give to that without pulling out a soapbox and lecturing for a while is to suggest that you read Starship Troopers. I'm nowhere near as eloquent as Mr. Heinlein. And again, don't waste your time with the movie, it's a travesty.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 3:34:54 AM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mynxkat

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

Your proposal still sets up a diametrically opposed two-tiered system of residency that is ... well ... I wonder how people would take to being cecond-class (non-)citizens?

Peace and comfort,

Michael

The best answer I can give to that without pulling out a soapbox and lecturing for a while is to suggest that you read Starship Troopers. I'm nowhere near as eloquent as Mr. Heinlein. And again, don't waste your time with the movie, it's a travesty.

I read it, back in '96 or '97 The book sucked.

To me, basing a system of government on that book is like people "living their lives" by the Gor books.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 6:39:18 AM

MrBukani

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BTW its good to think about how many soldiers you really need
It used to be 2 brothers outta one family in draft.
We have 4 brothers and it went like #1 has to go #2 doesnt #3 does etc.
I was #4 and did service instead of #3
its called something like brotherly service.
I think we should stick with only one in this time since families and armies get smaller.
In peacetime that is off course.
I always thought it was a pretty fair system.

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Post #: 63

RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 7:12:41 AM

TheHeretic

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I've read the Heinlein novel (and I thought the movie was fun), but it leaves us with a question of either, what do we do with a military that size, or how (and who) decides who gets let in?

We can achieve the same sort of personal investment in society by requiring that everyone perform a term of national service in one of many possible capacities. Rather than making service a ticket to citizenship, it is an obligation of it

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 7:30:35 AM

tweakabelle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

The point of me starting this thread was the burden of fighting has rested on far too few shoulders for far too long.

The draft should have been called long ago to not make so FEW bear the burden of these un-needed wars.

A draft with NO special treatment of the wealthy and well-connected would be more fair.

ETA: Maybe we wouldn't have soldiers going on civilian kill missions and murdering 2 year-olds in their beds.

I appreciate what you are trying to achieve. With respect, the problems have not been caused by the size of the military or how it recruits its members. The problems people are trying to address here were caused by gross errors made at the political level by the US political leadership.

What is needed to ensure that these situations don't recur is changes in the way the US decides to go to war. The decision making process has been shown to be inadequate, especially in relation to Iraq, where sections of the political class deliberately manipulated processes in order to manufacture a false case against an imagined enemy.

FWIW, I see some merit in both FD's and Aylee's suggestions. But I suspect FD's ideas would have been far more effective in preventing the debacles currently being experienced in the Middle East. I am unsure whether Aylee's ideas might have prevented either of those situations.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/18/2012 7:42:47 AM >

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 7:41:32 AM

hlen5

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My point is about fairness and sharing the burden. I'm not saying we need everyone of draftable age in Afghanistan.

No favoritism (or disfavor!) for Congress's children.

I appreciate Switzerland's system, as I understand it. Everyone goes thru basic training so that in essence the entire population is a ready reserve.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 9:27:15 AM

MrBukani

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I remember the gangs of new york where there was a regulation you could pay a couple hundred dollars to get out of service.
Should have been a million dollars.
If you buy me enough ammo Im good with it.

A lotta rich people are whimps untill they are put in the doghouse themselves.
I remember a saying from the original soldier of orange.
People dont really change, when its war you will see who is who.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 11:19:03 AM

DaNewAgeViking

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The problem with all these arguments is that you are equating national defense with some sort of citizenship test (yes, that includes Heinlein). The only thing that matters in national defense is defending the nation. As I mentioned earlier, any war must be subjected to an 'appropriate necessity' test: if it isn't necessary, it is flat-out wrong. If it is essential to the national survival, than all that matters is winning, and no artificial distinctions should be made on who serves. A large part of why 'nam was so unpopular was all the bogus deferments, especially for the rich and influential (like 'DubYa'). During WW 2, conscienious (sp) objectors served as medics - served a useful role and took just as much risk as the grunts. That I can endorse.

BTW, Heinlein took a very simplistic view of the military lifestyle. No one I know of in the Spec Fi literature field considers his 'citizen soldiers' a viable concept, and that was one of his weakest books.

ABTW, good luck on getting anything like these 'kids go to war' laws passed, not to mention enforced.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 11:27:18 AM

DaNewAgeViking

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I remember the gangs of new york where there was a regulation you could pay a couple hundred dollars to get out of service.

You're thinking of the draft during the Civil War - one could hire a substitute to go for you, which is perhaps the most corrupt practice this country ever came up with. This grew into the 'bounty soldiers' who were often paid as much as $1000 by various states and municipalities who had a quota to meet, in order to avoid drafting their citizenry. The 'bounty jumpers' were notorious criminals - new units were treated as chain gangs, and dozens were shot by the veterans guarding them as they moved down to the front. Many bounty jumpers made a good living at enlisting, collecting their money, then deserting.

If this doesn't demonstrate the folly of anything less than Switzerland's universal conscription system, I can't imagine what would.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/18/2012 4:01:16 PM

Winterapple

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Everyone is trained to be or is a soldier, hmm,
sounds a bit like ancient Sparta.
It would also seem to a concession that
we as are always at war.
Spartan's military society didn't really
produce anything but war and soldiers.
It was the Athenians who were not warlike
who produced great art and the foundations
of democracy.
A society that is a war machine is
ipso facto a facisist society.
Compulsory service to the nation
by all it's citizens would breed nationalism
more than anything.
Nationalism becomes facism.
Democracy and freedom would no
longer be what in theory we're fighting
preserve.
And if this Heinlen thing doesn't work out
can we turn to L Ron Hubbard to save us?

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 5:39:12 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DaNewAgeViking
BTW, Heinlein took a very simplistic view of the military lifestyle. No one I know of in the Spec Fi literature field considers his 'citizen soldiers' a viable concept, and that was one of his weakest books.

One thing it's worth remembering about Heinlein's whole argument: he was only in the navy for about six months before he was invalided out. One wonders if that would have been long enough for him get his citizenship papers himself?
(It should also be noted that SF writers who'd actually served themselves - Brian Aldiss, Joe Haldeman and Gene Wolfe are cases in point - found his argument even stupider than the crap he came out with in Farnham's Freehold and The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress...)

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 6:48:42 AM

MrBukani

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple

Everyone is trained to be or is a soldier, hmm,
sounds a bit like ancient Sparta.
It would also seem to a concession that
we as are always at war.
Spartan's military society didn't really
produce anything but war and soldiers.
It was the Athenians who were not warlike
who produced great art and the foundations
of democracy.
A society that is a war machine is
ipso facto a facisist society.
Compulsory service to the nation
by all it's citizens would breed nationalism
more than anything.
Nationalism becomes facism.
Democracy and freedom would no
longer be what in theory we're fighting
preserve.
And if this Heinlen thing doesn't work out
can we turn to L Ron Hubbard to save us?

Not to debunk what you said cause it is what it is.
But I also read of Sparta they were kinda social in dividing the land equally among its citizens.
I think we must not forget any society is build out of an ideal.
It backfires a lot, but thats why we have, trial and error.
And while the spartans went to thermopylae to defend all greeks, from the persian invasion, the athenians didnt really go along.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 7:56:05 AM

kalikshama

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

As a Vietnam combat veteran, I am in favor of a military draft for all children aged 18 to 50 of any member of Congress who votes "Yes" on a declaration of war, with those Congressmen's children to report for basic training within 48 hours of their parent voting "Yes" on a declaration of war.

Further, it should be written into such a draft law that those children of those members of Congress voting "Yes" on a declaration of war be only allowed to serve in a combat arm (Infantry, Armor, Artillery or Combat Engineer) and only as an enlisted service member or a non-commissioned officer.

Further, a similar draft be mandated for the children of the President, Vice President and all members of the Cabinet.

If Julie and Tricia Nixon had been drafted into the U. S. Army Infantry as privates the day their father "Tricky Dick" Nixon was sworn in as President - the Vietnam war would have ended in a negotiated peace in 1968.

quote:

If the "cause" is "just" - you should be willing to sacrifice your own children's lives first for the "cause".

If you are willing to risk your own children's lives, then and only the do you have the moral authority to risk the lives of someone else's children.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 9:10:22 AM

Edwynn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Winterapple
Compulsory service to the nation
by all it's citizens would breed nationalism
more than anything.
Nationalism becomes facism.

Universal conscription, i.e. not just registering but training and ~ 1 yr. of service for all males, was in fact the case in many European countries until recently, still is in Norway, Switzerland and Austria, the latter two having an alternative option. No undue nationalism or fascism came from it that we are aware of.

Especially with a CC option, and if active duty were held to reasonable time as in Europe, it would not be a bad idea in the US as a way to pay for college. In Europe it's not even needed for that since higher education is free or low cost.

As FightDirecto pointed out in another post, it's a good way to get out in the world (even in your own country), meet other types of people, etc., which experience HS grads especially would not normally have. It might also instill a sense of community and notion of greater purpose than one's own mere personal gain or advancement, such attributes of which in this country seem to be noticeably lacking.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 3/19/2012 9:58:33 AM >

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 10:09:06 AM

FullCircle

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FR

One of the reasons that a draft probably wouldn't work in this day and age is the crazy person factor. If the military is a closer reflection of society then you'll get a lot more sociopaths doing things abroad that don't show your country in a good light. Now are we saying a draft is needed as an answer to the combat weary individual that goes on a mad killing spree?

As for weeding these people out I'm not sure how many psychologists would be confident of discerning between those pretending to be crazy to avoid the draft from the actual ones that are. If you make that call and place a gun in their hand it's more of a burden on your conscience than say refusing to admit someone and then see that person kill someone by their own means.

I'm not convinced anyone needs a draft anyway. The price has been so high which has meant that as time goes on fewer have dared state the obvious about these wars.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 11:00:44 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Especially with a CC option, and if active duty were held to reasonable time as in Europe, it would not be a bad idea in the US as a way to pay for college. In Europe it's not even needed for that since higher education is free or low cost.

That'll be news to all those who were rioting about yet another hike in university tuition fees last summer...

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 11:28:16 AM

Edwynn

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Indeed. I know that the UK is in some ways closer to the US than the continent, I just don't always go to the trouble of making that distinction when I say "Europe."

Tuition has been affected by the usual culprit hitting everything else these last few years. The bank bond holders are holding civilization for ransom, money's gotta come from somewhere.

http://jimsheng.hubpages.com/hub/Comparison-of-cost-of-higher-education-around-the-world

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 12:17:32 PM

Moonhead

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Fair enough. It just irks me whenever I hear somebody lumping together the whole of Europe like that, dig?

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 3:30:29 PM

thishereboi

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fightdirecto

As a Vietnam combat veteran, I am in favor of a military draft for all children aged 18 to 50 of any member of Congress who votes "Yes" on a declaration of war, with those Congressmen's children to report for basic training within 48 hours of their parent voting "Yes" on a declaration of war.

Further, it should be written into such a draft law that those children of those members of Congress voting "Yes" on a declaration of war be only allowed to serve in a combat arm (Infantry, Armor, Artillery or Combat Engineer) and only as an enlisted service member or a non-commissioned officer.

Further, a similar draft be mandated for the children of the President, Vice President and all members of the Cabinet.

If Julie and Tricia Nixon had been drafted into the U. S. Army Infantry as privates the day their father "Tricky Dick" Nixon was sworn in as President - the Vietnam war would have ended in a negotiated peace in 1968.

That's right, go after the kids if the parent votes yes. After all it's their fault right? And Julie and Tricia definitely should have been put into a combat unit. After all, they had the nerve to be born to that asshat, why shouldn't they pay like any other kid of a political figure.

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RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 3:45:07 PM

DaddySatyr

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
That's right, go after the kids if the parent votes yes. After all it's their fault right? And Julie and Tricia definitely should have been put into a combat unit. After all, they had the nerve to be born to that asshat, why shouldn't they pay like any other kid of a political figure.

Actually, why should they have received special treatment? The point that there'd be less wars if the politicians' children didn't get special treatment, I think, is well made.

The hope is not to "punish the children" but to make the parent think before they send someone else's child off to war. If a war is just, it should be the duty (dare I say: "honor") of any citizen to contribute to that effort.

If a war is unjust, it might give the powers-that-be some pause to know that their family would be the first to be affected. Do you honestly believe that King George II would have been so quick, entering Iraq if his daughters were in boots? I don't. I think there would have been other solutions found or maybe, this country would finally learn to live and let live with other countries.

In support of full disclosure, when it happened, I was for it. When I found out that it was pointless, I wanted our children brought home.

Peace and comfort,

Michael

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