Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Enact the Draft!


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Enact the Draft! Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 4:11:09 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
One thing it's worth remembering about Heinlein's whole argument: he was only in the navy for about six months before he was invalided out. One wonders if that would have been long enough for him get his citizenship papers himself?
(It should also be noted that SF writers who'd actually served themselves - Brian Aldiss, Joe Haldeman and Gene Wolfe are cases in point - found his argument even stupider than the crap he came out with in Farnham's Freehold and The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress...)


Heinlein graduated Annapolis in 1929. Invalided out in 1934. I don't know what kind of math you are using, but that seems to be more than 6 months to me.

In Starship Troopers it was a 2 year term minimum, or for the duration in Juan Rico's case, to get your full citizenship.

The argument in Starship Troopers is that it is the service that makes you a citizen, not the voting. In another writing of his, he suggests that people be able to solve a quadratic equation before being allowed to vote.

So you know, Midshipmen at the Navel Academy are commissioned officers. Very junior/larval commissioned officers. So. . . that is what? 9 years before TB took him down.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 6:50:41 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		So what it still sounds like Rome
earning citizenship through military service.
And Rome didnt end well.

It would benefit your country more to lets say hmmm scientific service, maybe?
Although that can backfire also as we have seen with a pakistani.
Naw we are born citizens. Thats good enough.
And you can naturalize if you like.
Draft is just a service to society.
Would mean disabled people cannot vote in the Heinlein system.
Like the ones without legs and such.

And full circle's reply about the draft is not mine.
About sociopaths and all.
A volunteer army brings in the poorest wich are on average not the smartests.
I have heard of the effects here.
Poop smeared on the walls and one girl that was the base whore wich all the numbnuts fucked.
Just an incident, but I never heard of such a thing when there was a draft.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 7:43:48 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
That's right, go after the kids if the parent votes yes. After all it's their fault right? And Julie and Tricia definitely should have been put into a combat unit. After all, they had the nerve to be born to that asshat, why shouldn't they pay like any other kid of a political figure.


Actually, why should they have received special treatment? The point that there'd be less wars if the politicians' children didn't get special treatment, I think, is well made.
They shouldn't get special treatment. They should be treated like anyone else here. Now I know that isn't how it happens, but that is the way is should be.

The hope is not to "punish the children" but to make the parent think before they send someone else's child off to war. If a war is just, it should be the duty (dare I say: "honor") of any citizen to contribute to that effort.
Then why specify that they should be put into combat units. If we ever bring the draft back, then they should have their chance like anyone else.

If a war is unjust, it might give the powers-that-be some pause to know that their family would be the first to be affected. Do you honestly believe that King George II would have been so quick, entering Iraq if his daughters were in boots? I don't. I think there would have been other solutions found or maybe, this country would finally learn to live and let live with other countries.
King George II?

In support of full disclosure, when it happened, I was for it. When I found out that it was pointless, I wanted our children brought home.




Peace and comfort,



Michael



_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to DaddySatyr)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 8:29:08 PM   
Aylee


Posts: 24103
Joined: 10/14/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

So what it still sounds like Rome
earning citizenship through military service.
And Rome didnt end well.


Who says that Rome has ended?

But anyways, Rome went from Citizen Soldiers to Legionnaires. That was part of the problem.

quote:

Would mean disabled people cannot vote in the Heinlein system.
Like the ones without legs and such.


Let me guess. You did NOT read Starship Troopers. The Federation is required to find a place for you to serve regardless of skill, aptitude, or physical issues. Juan Rico was in the MI. You could also do non-military work as an experimental test subject on Pluto. Or, be a pilot like Juan's female friend Carmen. Or go into R&D like Carl.

Just like with voting today (18 and having a pulse), that is all you needed for Federal Service.

quote:

A volunteer army brings in the poorest wich are on average not the smartests.

Dayum. What are those military academies teaching nowadays, then? Doesn't England have a volunteer army? Who is that guy. . . um. . . that Harry dude . . . umm. . . is HE one of the poorest?

And those idiot astronauts we have.

You really have NO concept of what the modern citizen soldier in the US Army (probably ALL branches) needs to know to refer to them as stupid.

quote:

I have heard of the effects here.
Poop smeared on the walls and one girl that was the base whore wich all the numbnuts fucked.


Camp followers are nothing new. I think that a couple of guys that have served had terms for them that I never learned.

As far as the poop. . . that happens with people. I do not understand why. Perhaps they never outgrew being two.

quote:

Just an incident, but I never heard of such a thing when there was a draft.


Lack of interwebz.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 8:40:29 PM   
Winterapple


Posts: 1343
Joined: 8/19/2011
Status: offline 		Land in Sparta was divided amongst the ruling class who were considered the only citizens
of Sparta.
Spartan society broke down into three
basic groups
The Spartiates who were the ruling class,
soldiers a landowners.
The Helots who were enslaved, they were
the serfs who worked the land and
had no legal rights.
The Perioeci who were freemen who were
allowed to work in commerce and skilled
labor but who were entirely subordinated
by the Spartiates. They weren't citizens.
They couldn't own land.
Sparta's military society grew out of
fears that the Helots would revolt.
Helots were watched closely a sort
of Spartan secret police.
The Spartans wanted to be self reliant
which was worthy they didn't want
to import anything. They needed the
Helots to work the land and feed them
which freed the ruling class to military
pursuits.
A Spartan man was taken from his mother
at 7 and lived a good portion if not
most of his life in barracks.
He was a soldier at twenty, a citizen
at thirty and required to serve as a
soldier til he was sixty.
Aristotle said this about the Spartans
Those like the Spartans who concentrate
on the one and ignore the other in their
education turn men into machines
and in devoting themselves to one
single aspect of city's life, end up
making them inferior even in that.
So, basically their goal was hurt by
the way they went about it and
the goal itself was not the greatest
for a society because it neglected
other things a healthy society needs
The Spartans were great and brave
warriors and there society and culture
was fascinating. One plus of Spartan
society was Spartan women had rights
and freedoms almost unheard of in
the ancient world. There were some
great Spartans like Leonidas and Queen
Gorgo.
Totalitarian and fascist have certain
advantages. The crime rate is low because
it's a police state. Because they are
always at war or preparing for war
they have to manufacture things so
there's low unemployment. But these
advantages such as they are pale
next to the advantages democracy


_____________________________

A thousand dreams within me softly burn.
Rimbaud




(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/19/2012 9:42:10 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

FR

One of the reasons that a draft probably wouldn't work in this day and age is the crazy person factor. If the military is a closer reflection of society then you'll get a lot more sociopaths doing things abroad that don't show your country in a good light. Now are we saying a draft is needed as an answer to the combat weary individual that goes on a mad killing spree?

As for weeding these people out I'm not sure how many psychologists would be confident of discerning between those pretending to be crazy to avoid the draft from the actual ones that are. If you make that call and place a gun in their hand it's more of a burden on your conscience than say refusing to admit someone and then see that person kill someone by their own means.

I'm not convinced anyone needs a draft anyway. The price has been so high which has meant that as time goes on fewer have dared state the obvious about these wars.




Which is a good reason to have a volunteer military, which can pick among the applicants as one option in a larger obligation to national service. "Thanks, but no thanks. We think you'd be much more productive on a pothole crew in your hometown."

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 12:01:23 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani
.............A volunteer army brings in the poorest wich are on average not the smartests.
I have heard of the effects here.
Poop smeared on the walls and one girl that was the base whore wich all the numbnuts fucked.


How much interaction have you had with the US military? What are you talking about, poop smeared on the walls?

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 4:43:28 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		None, but thats not the point, is it?
Point is for instance, why do the reps have such shitty presidential candidates?
The smart geezers go for the money and the pay is just not good enough in politics or any statecotrolled thing.
Its the same everywhere.
But you take the cake this time on the rep side.
Thats probably also why the smartest lawpractisers are lawyers and not judges.
In general of course.
Seems obvious to me.
And maybe the US dont smear poop on walls, but the world metaphorically speaking.
I dont think any army is excused and since you have one of the largest and the most in conflict, chances are you make the most mistakes also.
But to look at numbers I think there is a definite difference in culture to all countries in the world and related sociapathic behaviour.
Like addiction for example and the war on drugs.
The more you forbid something the more people will wanna do it.
Cause in the end western society sucks these days and has a big identity crisis.
I remember a man saying dont think it didnt happen yet, it all did.
And I dont make excuses for my people.
They are fucked up also.
Question is to what degree are we fucked up in comparison and how does culture stimulate mass psychosis.

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 4:51:51 AM   
DaddySatyr


Posts: 9381
Joined: 8/29/2011
From: Pittston, Pennsyltucky
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
If a war is unjust, it might give the powers-that-be some pause to know that their family would be the first to be affected. Do you honestly believe that King George II would have been so quick, entering Iraq if his daughters were in boots? I don't. I think there would have been other solutions found or maybe, this country would finally learn to live and let live with other countries.
King George II?



Sorry. Because both Bush Presidents had such an affinity for issuing Executive Orders - and thereby by-passing the Constitutionally intention checks-and-balance system - I refer to them as "Kings". That was, I'm confident in surmising, how they thought of themselves. So ... King George I (41) and King George II (43)



Peace and comfort,



Michael

_____________________________

A Stone in My Shoe

Screen captures (and pissing on shadows) still RULE! Ya feel me?

"For that which I love, I will do horrible things"

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 6:35:22 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
Which is a good reason to have a volunteer military, which can pick among the applicants as one option in a larger obligation to national service. "Thanks, but no thanks. We think you'd be much more productive on a pothole crew in your hometown."

I quite liked George MacDonald Fraser's line on that approach to national service: "I joined the army because there was no fucking way they were sending me down a mine..."

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to TheHeretic)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 7:34:22 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

And maybe the US dont smear poop on walls, but the world metaphorically speaking


So in other words you lied

_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 8:54:38 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

And maybe the US dont smear poop on walls, but the world metaphorically speaking


So in other words you lied

About what?

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 9:50:29 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

None, but thats not the point, is it?Point is for instance, why do the reps have such shitty presidential candidates?
The smart geezers go for the money and the pay is just not good enough in politics or any statecotrolled thing.
Its the same everywhere.
But you take the cake this time on the rep side.
Thats probably also why the smartest lawpractisers are lawyers and not judges.
In general of course.
Seems obvious to me.
And maybe the US dont smear poop on walls, but the world metaphorically speaking.
I dont think any army is excused and since you have one of the largest and the most in conflict, chances are you make the most mistakes also.
But to look at numbers I think there is a definite difference in culture to all countries in the world and related sociapathic behaviour.
Like addiction for example and the war on drugs.
The more you forbid something the more people will wanna do it.
Cause in the end western society sucks these days and has a big identity crisis.
I remember a man saying dont think it didnt happen yet, it all did.
And I dont make excuses for my people.
They are fucked up also.
Question is to what degree are we fucked up in comparison and how does culture stimulate mass psychosis.



So it was just your general smear on military people you haven't met and a rambling diatribe on the evils of Western civilization.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 10:12:18 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		no it was an example and explanation to argue a voluntary army has less pickings then draft
And I dont judge an organisation on an isolated incident.
poop methaphorically
We talk about death every day here and I said poop
pooppoop pidoo.
But it happened and I thought it was funny.
Its always been hard recruiting in the voluntary here.
How about there?

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/20/2012 10:15:00 AM >

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 10:24:15 AM   
hlen5


Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline 		The pickings depend, somewhat, on the economy. Bad economy, more enlistees.

That does not take into account those that enlist for purely patriotic reasons. With an all volunteer military, the Officers are volunteers, too.

One can also become an Officer thru OCS (Officer Candidate School) or the Service Academies.

I still don't get what happened that you thought was funny?

ETA: I wasn't objecting to the word poop but the actual "action" stated.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 3/20/2012 10:25:13 AM >

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 10:34:56 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		To emphasize I do agree by saying identity crisis that mental disorders are more common these days.
It only depends on the quality of the recruiting,selecting and testing. You have to run psychology tests for both voluntary and draft, right?
And yes the west, we, europe and america etc. should get our marbles together.
You cant even recruit a good rep president.
I think I have seen some promising candidates in the resent past.
Its just not a good example for the rest of democracy and tolerance.
We have the same problem here with partyleader of the PVV Geert Wilders. He's is a disgrace to our tolerance.
PVV(party of freedom) excluding muslims.
They have less rights according to him.

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 11:34:42 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		First you said they do it.....

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

And full circle's reply about the draft is not mine.
About sociopaths and all.
A volunteer army brings in the poorest wich are on average not the smartests.
I have heard of the effects here.
Poop smeared on the walls and one girl that was the base whore wich all the numbnuts fucked.
Just an incident, but I never heard of such a thing when there was a draft.



and then you say they don't....


quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

And maybe the US dont smear poop on walls, but the world metaphorically speaking.




_____________________________

"Sweetie, you're wasting your gum" .. Albert


This here is the boi formerly known as orfunboi


(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 12:02:25 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

If everyone, chickenhawks included, had loved ones called up to serve, we would see how long it would take to find an end to this slaughter (US military AND Afhgan/Iraqi civilians).


Here is the flaw I find with your proposition. During WWII many sports figures and entertainers were drafted, or volunteered b/c the draft was inevitable.

Ted Williams of the Boston Red Sox served as a fighter pilot with distinction in both WWII and in the Korean War.

Joe Dimaggio of the New York Yankees "enlisted in the United States Army Air Forces on February 17, 1943, rising to the rank of sergeant. He was stationed at Santa Ana, California, Hawaii, and Atlantic City, New Jersey, as a physical education instructor. He was released on medical discharge in September 1945, due to chronic stomach ulcers." [Wiki]

There is privilege and favoritism even in the Draft. It is highly unlikely imho that the children of decision makers would ever be put in harm's way unless they volunteered.

(in reply to hlen5)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 1:20:53 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		I'll see your "unless" and raise you an "even if"...

_____________________________

I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

(in reply to vincentML)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Enact the Draft! - 3/20/2012 10:58:26 PM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrBukani

I was one of the last in the draft in Holland.
Our soldiers were one of the best in the world.
Thats logical cause all intelligent civilians were drafted too.
Thats gone now and the quality of our army is not what it was off course.
That could be a cause why there are so many post war traumas now, with US servicemen.

edit I said the cause I mean a cause.
I saw what military training already can do to dumb people, some totally broke down.


page1post3

excuse me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzOzUHYwPms

Maybe I didnt mention that enough.

Draft gave me a sense of dicipline, moral duty and sharing, that was good. Thats a bit what is missing today.

< Message edited by MrBukani -- 3/20/2012 11:41:41 PM >

(in reply to MrBukani)
Profile   Post #: 100
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Enact the Draft! Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 4 [5]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.109