RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (Full Version)

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Truthiness -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 6:29:33 PM)

My objection to abortion is not based on religion; that's just another diversion since your last one didn't pan out.

And of course to get back off the diversion, my point in this thread was with nearly 50% of women in recent polls identifying as Pro-life, I don't think that opposition to abortion is due to "hating women".



tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 7:34:09 PM)

Define "Pro-life", because, for me, it includes no exceptions for any abortions.



Kirata -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 7:53:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, you just have a problem with ONE part of family planning, and that's not based on some crazy fundamentalist belief about the blastocyst getting a soul at conception?

I mean, I don't see how a blastocyst is any different from any other cells. There's no soul there, so what's your hang up?

I don't quite see how abortion figures into family planning. Planning means in advance. And as for the blastocyst argument, things kinda progress yanno. Do you have a problem with post-blastocyst stage abortion?

K.



pghays04 -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 9:27:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I'm still awaiting a substantive reply to my direct question. Why is it that you're ashamed to admit that you oppose unfettered access to family planning services?

I'm opposed to unfettered access because unfettered is a euphemism for 'Paid for by the Taxpayers'. I have no problem with anyone having complete access to anything legal that they are paying for instead of having taxpayers pay for it. If it's not legal, then work on getting it legalized.



pghays04 -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 9:38:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

So, you just have a problem with ONE part of family planning, and that's not based on some crazy fundamentalist belief about the blastocyst getting a soul at conception?

I mean, I don't see how a blastocyst is any different from any other cells. There's no soul there, so what's your hang up?

If you look back at your posts you'll see that you are clearly the crazy fundamentalist here.



tweakabelle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 9:51:07 PM)

quote:

Kirata
I don't quite see how abortion figures into family planning.


If you're planning not to have children at this particular point in your life, and whatever contraception system you're taking lets you down, or the woman becomes pregnant for any reason, then abortion enters the picture as one aspect/option for family planning.

It may or may not be the preferred or most desirable option but it is a lawful legitimate option, one that many women who find themselves caught in that trap are grateful for.



SoftBonds -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 10:05:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

quote:

Kirata
I don't quite see how abortion figures into family planning.


If you're planning not to have children at this particular point in your life, and whatever contraception system you're taking lets you down, or the woman becomes pregnant for any reason, then abortion enters the picture as one aspect/option for family planning.

It may or may not be the preferred or most desirable option but it is a lawful legitimate option, one that many women who find themselves caught in that trap are grateful for.


Yeah, also as I mentioned before, Family Planning, like Financial Planning, is best done before you need it, but is still useful if you goof.
As a guy, I try to keep a condom in my wallet. I expect the gal to keep a condom in her purse. Sometimes though you realize the one in your wallet kinda already got used, and so did hers, and heat of the moment...
For that matter, if a gal goes to a bar to have a good time, and wakes up with a headache in a strange bed (which doesn't always mean she drank too much, roofies are a threat), she may not realize she was probably raped-until a month later when her body doesn't give her a usual visitor.
Given how a lot of conservatives talk about women "lying about being raped," where the rape exemption is concerned, a gal who doesn't realize her drunken blackout was actually a roofie until she realizes she is pregnant would probably have a lot of trouble getting an abortion under most rape exemptions... not much evidence a month or two later you know.
Don't forget that while Sarah Palin was mayor, Wasilla made women pay for their rape kits because a woman who reported a rape would get counseling that mentioned abortion, so to save the babies, it was decided to discourage rape reporting by charging the victims a few grand.



tweakabelle -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 10:12:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: pghays04


quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

I'm still awaiting a substantive reply to my direct question. Why is it that you're ashamed to admit that you oppose unfettered access to family planning services?

I'm opposed to unfettered access because unfettered is a euphemism for 'Paid for by the Taxpayers'. I have no problem with anyone having complete access to anything legal that they are paying for instead of having taxpayers pay for it. If it's not legal, then work on getting it legalized.


There will be many cases where its far cheaper for the taxpayer to support "unfettered access to family planning services" than with hold such support and end up having to support the resulting child until it reaches adulthoood.

If your objection is based on solely financial grounds, then the choice you advocate ends up being a case of cutting off your nose to spite your face - not the smartest of options.



tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 10:39:23 PM)

quote:

I'm opposed to unfettered access because unfettered is a euphemism for 'Paid for by the Taxpayers'. I have no problem with anyone having complete access to anything legal that they are paying for instead of having taxpayers pay for it. If it's not legal, then work on getting it legalized.


State Funding for Abortion under Medicaid

Funding under Hyde Amendment Only: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming.

Hyde Amendment and Additional Health Circumstances: Indiana (physical health), Iowa (fetal abnormality), Mississippi (fetal abnormality), Utah (physical health and fetal abnormality), Virginia (fetal abnormality), and Wisconsin (physical health).
All or Most Health Circumstances: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

Noncompliant with the Hyde Amendment: South Dakota (life endangerment only).

The Hyde Amendment
After Roe v. Wade decriminalized abortion in 1973, Medicaid covered abortion care without restriction. In 1976, Representative Henry Hyde (R-IL) introduced an amendment that later passed to limit federal funding for abortion care. Effective in 1977, this provision, known as the Hyde Amendment, specifies what abortion services are covered under Medicaid.

Over the past two decades, Congress has debated the limited circumstances under which federal funding for abortion should be allowed. For a brief period of time, coverage included cases of rape, incest, life endangerment, and physical health damage to the woman. However, beginning in 1979, the physical health exception was excluded, and in 1981 rape and incest exceptions were also excluded.

In September 1993, Congress rewrote the provision to include Medicaid funding for abortions in cases where the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. The present version of the Hyde Amendment requires coverage of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html

So, how are taxpayers money being used to pay for unfettered access to abortions?



pghays04 -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 10:57:03 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

I'm opposed to unfettered access because unfettered is a euphemism for 'Paid for by the Taxpayers'. I have no problem with anyone having complete access to anything legal that they are paying for instead of having taxpayers pay for it. If it's not legal, then work on getting it legalized.


State Funding for Abortion under Medicaid

Funding under Hyde Amendment Only: Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Delaware, District of Columbia, Florida, Georgia, Idaho, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Michigan, Missouri, Nebraska, Nevada, New Hampshire, North Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, Tennessee, Texas, and Wyoming.

Hyde Amendment and Additional Health Circumstances: Indiana (physical health), Iowa (fetal abnormality), Mississippi (fetal abnormality), Utah (physical health and fetal abnormality), Virginia (fetal abnormality), and Wisconsin (physical health).
All or Most Health Circumstances: Alaska, Arizona, California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Montana, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Vermont, Washington, and West Virginia.

Noncompliant with the Hyde Amendment: South Dakota (life endangerment only).

The Hyde Amendment
After Roe v. Wade decriminalized abortion in 1973, Medicaid covered abortion care without restriction. In 1976, Representative Henry Hyde (R-IL) introduced an amendment that later passed to limit federal funding for abortion care. Effective in 1977, this provision, known as the Hyde Amendment, specifies what abortion services are covered under Medicaid.

Over the past two decades, Congress has debated the limited circumstances under which federal funding for abortion should be allowed. For a brief period of time, coverage included cases of rape, incest, life endangerment, and physical health damage to the woman. However, beginning in 1979, the physical health exception was excluded, and in 1981 rape and incest exceptions were also excluded.

In September 1993, Congress rewrote the provision to include Medicaid funding for abortions in cases where the pregnancy resulted from rape or incest. The present version of the Hyde Amendment requires coverage of abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life endangerment.

http://www.prochoice.org/about_abortion/facts/public_funding.html

So, how are taxpayers money being used to pay for unfettered access to abortions?

It's not just about what is funded by taxpayers now. It is more about what some groups are trying to get the taxpayers to pay for.



dcnovice -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 10:58:36 PM)

quote:

My objection to abortion is not based on religion


Do you mind if I ask what it is based on?

I'm honestly curious.



tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/7/2012 11:27:05 PM)

quote:

It's not just about what is funded by taxpayers now. It is more about what some groups are trying to get the taxpayers to pay for.


to pay for? Im sorry, what groups are trying to get abortions paid for on the taxpayers dime? I dont recall anyone asking for free abortions.



Truthiness -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 12:27:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Define "Pro-life", because, for me, it includes no exceptions for any abortions.


The poll that you brought to the thread includes the people who believe in exceptions as "pro-life".

So apparently your opinion is not the norm.



tazzygirl -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 12:33:52 AM)

quote:

The poll that you brought to the thread includes the people who believe in exceptions as "pro-life".

So apparently your opinion is not the norm.


I didnt realize you could be pro-life and still accept abortions for only a certain few. Im sorry, thats hypocritical at best. See what trouble you can get into by using political labels?



Truthiness -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 1:50:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

The poll that you brought to the thread includes the people who believe in exceptions as "pro-life".

So apparently your opinion is not the norm.


I didnt realize you could be pro-life and still accept abortions for only a certain few. Im sorry, thats hypocritical at best. See what trouble you can get into by using political labels?


Not at all, seeing as I don't see any merit to your premise.



Truthiness -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 2:00:37 AM)

And to demonstrate:

hypocrisy 
noun, plural -sies.
1.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

pro-life
adj.
Advocating the legal protection of human embyos and fetuses, especially by favoring the outlawing of abortion on the ground that it is the taking of a human life.


Since one can "advocate the protection of human embryos and fetuses on the grounds that it is taking of a human life" while still understanding there are instances (such as medical risk to the mother) that at least some compromise may be necessary, there is no reason to believe one can't be pro-life while accepting the necessity for exceptions.

And since the basis of hypocrisy is that it is a pretense, and those pro-lifers who admit the need for exceptions are demonstrating what they believe with no pretense, your charge of hypocrisy has no merit.



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 3:38:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DaddySatyr

And, I'm assuming you'll accept the New England Journal of Medicine as being a pretty reliable source(I was off by one week. Sue me)?

Fetal Pain

quote:



CONCLUSIONS

Numerous lines of evidence suggest that even in the human fetus, pain pathways as well as cortical and subcortical centers necessary for pain perception are well developed late in gestation, and the neurochemical systems now known to be associated with pain transmission and modulation are intact and functional. Physiologic responses to painful stimuli have been well documented in neonates of various gestational ages and are reflected in hormonal, metabolic, and cardiorespiratory changes similar to but greater than those observed in adult subjects. Other responses in newborn infants are suggestive of integrated emotional and behavioral responses to pain and are retained in memory long enough to modify subsequent behavior patterns.

None of the data cited herein tell us whether neonatal nociceptive activity and associated responses are experienced subjectively by the neonate as pain similar to that experienced by older children and adults. However, the evidence does show that marked nociceptive activity clearly constitutes a physiologic and perhaps even a psychological form of stress in premature or full-term neonates. Attenuation of the deleterious effects of pathologic neonatal stress responses by the use of various anesthetic techniques has now been demonstrated. Recent editorials addressing these issues have promulgated a wide range of opinions, without reviewing all the available evidence.197-201 The evidence summarized in this paper provides a physiologic rationale for evaluating the risks of sedation, analgesia, local anesthesia, or general anesthesia during invasive procedures in neonates and young infants. Like persons caring for patients of other ages, those caring for neonates must evaluate the risks and benefits of using analgesic and anesthetic techniques in individual patients. However, in decisions about the use of these techniques, current knowledge suggests that humane considerations should apply as forcefully to the care of neonates and young, nonverbal infants as they do to children and adults in similar painful and stressful situations.






None of the data cited herein tell us whether neonatal nociceptive activity and associated responses are experienced subjectively by the neonate as pain similar to that experienced by older children and adults.

Do you even know what a Neonate is?



Hippiekinkster -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 3:42:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Truthiness

And to demonstrate:

hypocrisy 
noun, plural -sies.
1.
a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.

pro-life
adj.
Advocating the legal protection of human embyos and fetuses, especially by favoring the outlawing of abortion on the ground that it is the taking of a human life.


Since one can "advocate the protection of human embryos and fetuses on the grounds that it is taking of a human life" while still understanding there are instances (such as medical risk to the mother) that at least some compromise may be necessary, there is no reason to believe one can't be pro-life while accepting the necessity for exceptions.

And since the basis of hypocrisy is that it is a pretense, and those pro-lifers who admit the need for exceptions are demonstrating what they believe with no pretense, your charge of hypocrisy has no merit.

Richard Gere in "Chicago".



kalikshama -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 4:52:54 AM)

FR to the Salon article. Way to go Mississippi. It blows my mind how people insist on abstinence-only sex "education" despite its clear failure and be against both contraception and abortion [8|]

http://www.salon.com/2006/08/01/mississippi_7/

A girl in Mississippi would have to do some digging to find other sources of information about contraception. When it comes to sex education, the schools teach either abstinence or nothing at all. “You would be surprised what they don’t understand about their own bodies,” Thompson, the former director of the Jackson Women’s Health Organization, said about the clinic’s patients. “It still amazes me what they don’t know.”

Even when girls and women manage to learn about birth control, getting it isn’t always easy. Besides private physicians, the only places that provide birth control prescriptions are the Jackson Women’s Health Organization and the offices of the State Department of Health. Once a woman gets a prescription, there’s no guarantee she’ll be able to fill it. Mississippi is one of eight states with “conscience clause” laws that protect the jobs of pharmacists who refuse to dispense contraceptives. It’s especially hard to obtain emergency contraception. According to a survey by the Feminist Majority Foundation, of 25 pharmacies in Jackson, only two stock EC. Booker said he’s written several EC prescriptions, only to find his patients unable to fill them.

There’s no indication that Mississippi’s policies have led to increased chastity. There is, however, plenty of evidence that both women and their children are suffering. Mississippi has the third-highest teen pregnancy rate in the country and the highest teenage birth rate. It is tied with Louisiana for America’s worst infant mortality rate. According to the National Center for Children in Poverty, more than half of the state’s children under 6 years old live in destitution.



kalikshama -> RE: Go Fuck Yourself, Mississippi. Why do you hate women? (4/8/2012 5:04:40 AM)

"Pro-Life" Mississippi Has Highest Infant Mortality Rate in the Nation

...Mississippi now has the highest infant mortality rate in the country (and other “pro-life” states in the South aren’t doing much better). In Mississippi, 11.4 babies die per every 1,000 live births (compared to 6.9 per 1,000 nation-wide, as of the last time national data was collected). Alabama, North Carolina and Tennessee. Louisiana and South Carolina also saw increases in infant mortality.

To put that in context, Mississippi has an infant mortality rate right around that of Uruguay, Ukraine, Macedonia, and Bosnia & Herzegovina.

Mississippi’s infant mortality rate is twice as high as that of Germany, Canada, the Netherlands, Slovenia, Singapore, Norway, and a slew of other countries.

Mississippi also has the third-highest teen pregnancy rate in the country. And the second-highest rate of child poverty.

Interestingly, a postelection comparison found that “red” states had higher infant mortality rates than “blue” ones. In general, states that restrict abortion spend far less money per child than prochoice states on services such as foster care, education, welfare and the adoption of children who have physical and mental disabilities, according to a 2000 book by political scientist Jean Reith Schroedel.

...It’s not a coincidence that the most “pro-life” states are the worst places to be born. There has long been a connection between pro-choice policies and healthy women, healthy families and healthy babies. Healthy women make for healthy babies — and pro-choice policies, which value women’s health, affirm women’s humanity, and embrace women’s general well-being, make for healthy women. It should not surprise us that the same people who fetishize fetal life at the expense of women’s lives don’t really give a damn once that fetus becomes a baby. It shouldn’t surprise us that when states under-value women and consider us incubators unworthy of basic self-determination and control over our own reproduction, that women are less healthy, and children suffer because of it.

The most “pro-life” countries in the world are some of the worst places for women’s and children’s health. The most “pro-life” states in this country are the worst places in the nation for women’s and children’s health. When “pro-life” policies dominate, infant and maternal mortality spikes, women are under-educated, poverty rises, and children go hungry.



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