RE: What's with this great divide?

RE: What's with this great divide? (Full Version)

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Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 11:22:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sincelo OP I used to think that switches have more insight to what a submissive feels physically but then someone else brought up a really good point. People do not process pain the same way. I might think something hurts like the dickens and you think it is no big deal. I also don't think people process power exchange the same either. Some struggle to obey, some don't so no it doesn't give you more insight imo. yes, good point. someone else said they thought a (real?) dom wouldnt benefit from the sub experience because they're wired differently. i agreed that if it made sense for him, then that was the right thing for him to do.

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 11:29:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ClassAct2006 Switches are no better nor worse than anyone else. However I am 100% straight and I would not want a bisexual partner so similarly I have felt sub since I was very young and could not contemplate anything else and need someone dom to their very DNA who could not countenance switching. Every dominant man I've known and got close to has been the same. That does not mean I would not go near a man who has switched in the past but it's a huge put off oor me as this is not about a behavioural choice or kinky sex, it's about how a life is led with another and our being our natural selves. I accept some men will marry a wife and later turn or realise they are gay and thus also they might later realise they were not vanilla but dom but the doms I've known and liked have known always how they were. So I tend to prefer those as they simply reflect me - always having been sub as it's about life and the relationship and a desire for me to be controlled rather than what might be played around with in bed. great great point and so well said. let me ask you this: what if it turned out that your dom had indeed experimented with being a sub, but you didn't know. is it possible that you could go along not knowing, and it not mattering because your dom is a good dom, so you would never suspect? what im suggesting is that it may be possible that there may be no difference, except for what's in your head. we all do that, or at least, i admit, i do that myself for many things.

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 11:30:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bhruic quote: ORIGINAL: tj444 do you consider yourself because you are a switch to be better than subs or doms? I dont get the impression that you do so its not you or switches, I disagreed with the OPs assertion that switches are better and threw it back at him.. Can he show me in the Official BDSM Handbook where it states switches are better??? Can you show him/her in the Official BDSM handbook that they aren't? Conversations and debates are good, and opinions are to be expected, logical arguments are contributory... but a position like that is just nonsense. lol, as is her understanding of what i even said. damn - i love your posts!

Focus50 -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 3:58:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic yeah, thanks, this helped me understand you better, as did your earlier reply. dude, it wasn't word play. to be blunt, you weren't making much sense to me (and at least the other person you replied to). Ah, to count the times I'm "losing" on democratic grounds.... <shrugs> Just to reiterate, the only scoreboard that has meaning to me is found in a mirror. To affect my thinking, you'll need substance, not supporters.... quote: anyway, i get what you're saying now. and i hope by now you realize that it isnt word play when i say that i never advocated that a dom must submit first. i suggested it couldn't hurt. What about a hetero dom who's into anal sex? You thinking that "it couldn't hurt" to take one (or several) "for the team" as catcher before pitching himself? Just "for intel", natch.... Or where do you draw the line - and why? Because I'm thinking the ethical line for a dom who submits first is whatever he'd expect of his own sub, no? quote: you disagreed with me, saying, yeah, it CAN hurt, causing hesitation and mistakes (which is what i thought you might have meant anyway). and that it's meaningless to try and feel like what a sub feels if you're a dom. i like that you disagreed because that's the best way to learn different view points - it's all good. Just for clarity, "hesitation and mistakes" etc isn't the reason I think it's a dumb idea. Merely that there's nothing to be gained when your internal dom processing software is Apple to sub's Microsoft. Or apples n oranges, as I read somewhere earlier.... And I wonder what individual sub's think of their dom submitting to another. Bet there's a high percentage of those who'd think it creepy - of respect being lost etc.... Not that I'm advocating self denial or lies, if it really is in that dom's makeup. Focus.

sunshinemiss -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 4:11:32 PM)
I haven't read the thread, but I do know that the question you have is kind of the attitude of kind of "old school" folks I've known. If you're talking about topping and bottoming, sure. It helps to understand how your stuff works. I'd rather have a doctor that has been through surgery than one who is clueless and says, "It'll sting a bit" when in fact it hurts like all get out. I want the person who has X in hand to understand the kind of damage it can / will do. Many a sadist or top has had someone else use something on them so they get the experience. I think there is a continuum from never experienced any of this stuff on the other side of things to trying something new on oneself or having a trusted friend try it on them, to complete switching for the physical sensation of it. Probably, this is actually a lot more common than people's egos will allow for. Mustn't ruin the image! As an aside, a significant number of posters on this site, though, tend to be more D/s focused rather than S/M and I expect your question won't resonate/hasn't resonated well with them. It's a valid question and one that has been chewed over many a time. There was a time when your suggestion was pretty common. The advent of the internet has tended to change the perspective as I've witnessed it. Things went from very physical to much more mental. With that, the change in attitude has occurred about trying the other side of things for understanding. best sunshine

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 4:34:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss I haven't read the thread, but I do know that the question you have is kind of the attitude of kind of "old school" folks I've known. If you're talking about topping and bottoming, sure. It helps to understand how your stuff works. I'd rather have a doctor that has been through surgery than one who is clueless and says, "It'll sting a bit" when in fact it hurts like all get out. I want the person who has X in hand to understand the kind of damage it can / will do. Many a sadist or top has had someone else use something on them so they get the experience. I think there is a continuum from never experienced any of this stuff on the other side of things to trying something new on oneself or having a trusted friend try it on them, to complete switching for the physical sensation of it. Probably, this is actually a lot more common than people's egos will allow for. Mustn't ruin the image! As an aside, a significant number of posters on this site, though, tend to be more D/s focused rather than S/M and I expect your question won't resonate/hasn't resonated well with them. It's a valid question and one that has been chewed over many a time. There was a time when your suggestion was pretty common. The advent of the internet has tended to change the perspective as I've witnessed it. Things went from very physical to much more mental. With that, the change in attitude has occurred about trying the other side of things for understanding. best sunshine muchos gracias! i've heard a bit of that history, it's interesting how it's evolving.

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 4:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Focus50 quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic yeah, thanks, this helped me understand you better, as did your earlier reply. dude, it wasn't word play. to be blunt, you weren't making much sense to me (and at least the other person you replied to). Ah, to count the times I'm "losing" on democratic grounds.... <shrugs> Just to reiterate, the only scoreboard that has meaning to me is found in a mirror. To affect my thinking, you'll need substance, not supporters.... i'm not trying to compete with you, and i am not keeping score. i'm simply trying to understand you, and noting i wasnt the only one (i hate mob rule anyway). i dont have a need to affect your thinking, only to learn other viewpoints, and hope you learn too. if you need to win, then i surrender, so please try and get past that with me. quote: anyway, i get what you're saying now. and i hope by now you realize that it isnt word play when i say that i never advocated that a dom must submit first. i suggested it couldn't hurt. quote: What about a hetero dom who's into anal sex? You thinking that "it couldn't hurt" to take one (or several) "for the team" as catcher before pitching himself? Just "for intel", natch.... Or where do you draw the line - and why? Because I'm thinking the ethical line for a dom who submits first is whatever he'd expect of his own sub, no? taking what i said out of context, and now you're going down the gay argument route. It's not about "ethics". there's nothing unethical about a dom doing it, or not, if it's right for them. neither is there anything wrong with those who prefer a dom who hasnt subbed, cus that's right for what they want. quote: quote: you disagreed with me, saying, yeah, it CAN hurt, causing hesitation and mistakes. and that it's meaningless to try and feel like what a sub feels if you're a dom. Just for clarity, "hesitation and mistakes" etc isn't the reason I think it's a dumb idea. Merely that there's nothing to be gained when your internal dom processing software is Apple to sub's Microsoft. Or apples n oranges, as I read somewhere earlier.... Focus. good analogy, but you still go back to me repeating the words you used, as i try to understand you, and then you correcting me for using your own words... quote: "I'm just saying that anyone conflicted by what they're doing is more liable to make mistakes." thanks, peace out

LadyPact -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 5:46:01 PM)
Thank you, sunshine. OP, let Me try to help you a bit. I'm one half of a D/D couple. Neither of us switch in a relationship sense. There's no power dynamic between MP (My husband) and I. Our marriage runs like any other "normal" couple where neither is in charge of the other. I get a little bit of leverage in areas like being the more experienced half in kink, making decisions for the unit as a whole (go back to the poly forum for that) and being the person who is a little more prominent in the community. When it's just him and I, we are equals. We're just in love with each other. Topping/bottoming? Well, I taught him about 85% of his topping skills. That's exactly why he is one of the few people I would ever allow to top Me. (Trust Me. I'm a skill snob.) The thing is, I honestly don't like it and because I don't like it, the situation doesn't work for him. The same is true in reverse. Three, maybe four (?) years ago, I was stoked beyond belief that he was going to bottom for Me. (If I could find the keywords, I'd link it for you.) That doesn't work for us, either. We just are not BDSM compatible in any way and neither of us have anything positive in bottoming. The best we can do is say that we are glad the other person had the opportunity to try. We just don't work that way with each other. To steal the phrase from another poster, yes, we've tried the Brussels sprouts. In My personal opinion, I think people should give up the concept of superior/inferior. I know plenty of people who 'started on the bottom' and it was positive for them, but it would have never been positive for Me. It would have gone against My nature, and not only is that not right (for Me) to do to Myself, but it's also not right to do to the other person. Pretty much the same as if I deceived a bisexual or gay female to get into a relationship with Me knowing that I'm straight. That's never going to work for Me because it's not who I am. By the way, some folks should pay more attention. It was Red that brought that other stuff up as a joke. Go back to page one.

RedMagic1 -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 5:55:15 PM)
This conversation got weird. I'd like to say that I think Focus is speaking extremely clearly, and he sounds as though he is in a very good place.

LadyPact -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 5:57:04 PM)
Why is it weird? I'm just curious.

RedMagic1 -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 6:01:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Why is it weird? I'm just curious. In my opinion, it is because Focus50 has achieved a lifelong bromance with his desires for sexual sadism and control, while the OP is still deeply afraid of his own desires. Not afraid that a woman would say no if he asked, but afraid that a woman would say yes. So Focus is speaking in a language that the OP can't understand.

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 6:31:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Why is it weird? I'm just curious. In my opinion, it is because Focus50 has achieved a lifelong bromance with his desires for sexual sadism and control, while the OP is still deeply afraid of his own desires. Not afraid that a woman would say no if he asked, but afraid that a woman would say yes. So Focus is speaking in a language that the OP can't understand. forgive me for being blunt, but that's a load of b.s. you're guessing what the motives are of some guy you don't know on the internet, and being offensive in how you're doing it. the reality is that me being here is a testament to NOT being afraid of my desires. i cant speak to what u know about focus50. and the further reality is that i QUOTED focus50's words verbatim twice, and he turned around and "corrected me". regardless, he was a good man, and big enough explain himself to me, and it's all good.

Karmastic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 6:45:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyPact Thank you, sunshine. OP, let Me try to help you a bit. I'm one half of a D/D couple. Neither of us switch in a relationship sense. There's no power dynamic between MP (My husband) and I. Our marriage runs like any other "normal" couple where neither is in charge of the other. I get a little bit of leverage in areas like being the more experienced half in kink, making decisions for the unit as a whole (go back to the poly forum for that) and being the person who is a little more prominent in the community. When it's just him and I, we are equals. We're just in love with each other. Topping/bottoming? Well, I taught him about 85% of his topping skills. That's exactly why he is one of the few people I would ever allow to top Me. (Trust Me. I'm a skill snob.) The thing is, I honestly don't like it and because I don't like it, the situation doesn't work for him. The same is true in reverse. Three, maybe four (?) years ago, I was stoked beyond belief that he was going to bottom for Me. (If I could find the keywords, I'd link it for you.) That doesn't work for us, either. We just are not BDSM compatible in any way and neither of us have anything positive in bottoming. The best we can do is say that we are glad the other person had the opportunity to try. We just don't work that way with each other. To steal the phrase from another poster, yes, we've tried the Brussels sprouts. In My personal opinion, I think people should give up the concept of superior/inferior. I know plenty of people who 'started on the bottom' and it was positive for them, but it would have never been positive for Me. It would have gone against My nature, and not only is that not right (for Me) to do to Myself, but it's also not right to do to the other person. Pretty much the same as if I deceived a bisexual or gay female to get into a relationship with Me knowing that I'm straight. That's never going to work for Me because it's not who I am. By the way, some folks should pay more attention. It was Red that brought that other stuff up as a joke. Go back to page one. thank you very much, i've enjoyed many of your helpful & informative posts across all subjects, including this one. not 1 thing to disagree with, cus it's what ive been saying all along - no superior/inferior, just what's right for each person and couple. pls don't get me wrong, i wasn't looking for help, was looking for good discussion and learning more. But i do appreciate the spirit and intent of everything you tell me. but it seems like some people only read what they wanted to read, and took this thread as me advocating a position, versus me simply throwing out inquisitive questions (and not advocating). and, also misunderstanding the few opinions i stated. it's not like i started this thread to conduct an experiment, but this is worth noting. it's funny how people's reaction to neutral stimulus help define who they are. it's in some people's nature to be helpful and informative, and assume no negative baggage (you). Others will think it's a competition, and argue about words they said but later deny. and others will, well, just get plain nasty and make stupid assumptions or ignore words written on a page as reality, then flail at you based on their own misunderstanding. well, this is the interwebs, so i get people like that.

JeffBC -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 7:39:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Although some switches may appear to be confused, and others may very well be not especially dom or sub, there are those like me who are very either/ or in their response to others, and have been for many years. Oh noes! Don't tell me you fail to fit into TJ's nice neat little boxes? Maybe you're just confused about whether you're confused? I figure it's either that or tj is one messed up individual.

RedMagic1 -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 9:31:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Karmastic the reality is that me being here is a testament to NOT being afraid of my desires. What you need isn't something that can't be found here, and you won't achieve it verbally. You need to see a welt rise on a woman's body because you struck her, and to watch the fluid of arousal drip from her vaginal lips, and run slowly down her leg. You're not going to "get it" until you have experiences that primitive and visceral.

littlewonder -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/15/2012 11:01:42 PM)
There is no way in hell I would ever be with Master if he ever said he was submissive in the past or wanted to now or in the future. It's not what I'm attracted to. It's not how I'm wired and it's not how he's wired. I don't need to put my hand on a hot stove to know it's hot. He doesn't have to be a sub to know pain hurts or serving can be hard work.

sunshinemiss -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/16/2012 4:02:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RedMagic1 <snip> You need to see a welt rise on a woman's body because you struck her, and to watch the fluid of arousal drip from her vaginal lips, and run slowly down her leg. You're not going to "get it" until you have experiences that primitive and visceral. Red, I don't think you were specific enough there. ahem

ChatteParfaitt -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/16/2012 4:48:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Although some switches may appear to be confused, and others may very well be not especially dom or sub, there are those like me who are very either/ or in their response to others, and have been for many years. Oh noes! Don't tell me you fail to fit into TJ's nice neat little boxes? Maybe you're just confused about whether you're confused? I figure it's either that or tj is one messed up individual. She still has not retracted her statement that switches are inferior, she keeps coming back with useless deflection: That person x said oranges were superior, makes apples inferior. WTF?

littlecherie -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/16/2012 6:08:48 AM)
Because humans will never, ever agree. That's just how it is.

Bhruic -> RE: What's with this great divide? (4/16/2012 7:05:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt quote: ORIGINAL: JeffBC quote: ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt Although some switches may appear to be confused, and others may very well be not especially dom or sub, there are those like me who are very either/ or in their response to others, and have been for many years. Oh noes! Don't tell me you fail to fit into TJ's nice neat little boxes? Maybe you're just confused about whether you're confused? I figure it's either that or tj is one messed up individual. She still has not retracted her statement that switches are inferior, she keeps coming back with useless deflection: That person x said oranges were superior, makes apples inferior. WTF? On the other hand... you challenged me. I answered, and you had no response. Is that any different?

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