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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:52:13 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelOfSilence

A point that didn't need making as I had already made it.


For you perhaps. But it did allow a poster I enjoy, to ask me a question, which promoted additional thought for ME.

And since I post here for my own enjoyment and not yours........yay me!

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 2:27:56 PM   
LadyConstanze


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Blankpain


quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
it just doesn't mesh well, but still doesn't "devalue" her or makes her a fake.


I don't think anyone actually said that - you assumed it.

It seems we should discuss whether bigotry is involved here.


I didn't ASSUME, I expressed my own thoughts, wasn't aware that I needed your permission for that or point that out....

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 2:49:47 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
In fact, female chauvinism is much more acceptable than male chauvinism, as proven by the jokes that are acceptable towards males, but considered unacceptable towards females.


I've come to the conclusion that female chauvinism is more acceptable because the tacit belief is that men can't really be hurt by it, Orion. Jokes from women against men assume that men's position is pretty much assailable. We adult males are that rock-solidly on top of society and that is that. Or so it's still assumed - correctly or otherwise.

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Profile   Post #: 83
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 3:15:47 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
In fact, female chauvinism is much more acceptable than male chauvinism, as proven by the jokes that are acceptable towards males, but considered unacceptable towards females.


I've come to the conclusion that female chauvinism is more acceptable because the tacit belief is that men can't really be hurt by it, Orion. Jokes from women against men assume that men's position is pretty much assailable. We adult males are that rock-solidly on top of society and that is that. Or so it's still assumed - correctly or otherwise.

good posts i missed, and i agree.

i would add that this double standard is very prevalent, and seemingly intelligent rational people (mostly women) don't see themselves as being guilty of doing this (saying things akin to men bad women good).

as was being discussed in another thread - about how Korean women accept their men as being chauvinistic and tend to roll with it and just sort of accept it. i can totally relate to both sides of this, and just accept that there's enough sexist men to jade enough women into themselves becoming sexist about men. i.e., it's a two-way street.

i feel a little weird (sort of like a freak) because i don't really notice plumbing on boards so much and don't act any differently towards a man versus a woman. i also try to be gender neutral, and think of a poster here as a person, not a sex.

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Profile   Post #: 84
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 3:59:56 PM   
whatisthewhat


Posts: 43
Joined: 4/12/2011
Status: offline 		~FR~

I have not read every post on the thread.

Here is what alarms me:

People seem to think misogyny is up for interpretation. It is not. It has an exact definition, and that definition includes finding women to be inferior and despising them for being so. There is plenty of that in BDSM. There is plenty of that in the WORLD.

What alarms me about this is that people are falling all over themselves to prove they think that men are a-ok. Do men really need that much more validation? Do women not need to be reassured that yes, we, as human beings, take them just as seriously intellectually and socially as we do a man? And why should we have to engage in such reassurance?

--Probably because women have been taught that their opinions and desires are not what matters in this world.

Anyone who believes that a misogynist attitude is not ingrained in us the same way a white skin bias in ingrained in us is simply not facing the truth.

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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 4:13:41 PM   
fucktoyprincess


Posts: 2337
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quote:

ORIGINAL: whatisthewhat

~FR~

I have not read every post on the thread.

Here is what alarms me:

People seem to think misogyny is up for interpretation. It is not. It has an exact definition, and that definition includes finding women to be inferior and despising them for being so. There is plenty of that in BDSM. There is plenty of that in the WORLD.

What alarms me about this is that people are falling all over themselves to prove they think that men are a-ok. Do men really need that much more validation? Do women not need to be reassured that yes, we, as human beings, take them just as seriously intellectually and socially as we do a man? And why should we have to engage in such reassurance?

--Probably because women have been taught that their opinions and desires are not what matters in this world.

Anyone who believes that a misogynist attitude is not ingrained in us the same way a white skin bias in ingrained in us is simply not facing the truth.


While there may be some posts on this thread that take that viewpoint, when I read through the thread I really feel that many of us are simply trying to say

BDSM does not equal misogyny

Dominant male does not equal misogynist

Male does not equal misogynist

Gor does not equal misogynist

Gorean male does not equal misogynist.

I mean, you get my drift. I really feel most of us are in agreement with your statement that there is misogyny in BDSM just as there is in the world, but many of us are simply pointing out that BDSM does not equal misogyny and that one has to be careful not to interpret all of BDSM between a male Dominant and a female submissive through that lens. I don't think that gives anyone an accurate picture of BDSM, of Dominance or of misogyny. I certainly am NOT defending misogyny.



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Profile   Post #: 86
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 4:14:59 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: whatisthewhat
What alarms me about this is that people are falling all over themselves to prove they think that men are a-ok. Do men really need that much more validation?

As always, I won't speak to "men". For ME, I don't need the validation. I just don't associate with asshats who wish to malign me because of my gender.

quote:

Anyone who believes that a misogynist attitude is not ingrained in us the same way a white skin bias in ingrained in us is simply not facing the truth.

So anyone who sees things as quite a bit more complicated than that is simply wrong, eh? Thus spake the burning bush.


< Message edited by JeffBC -- 5/9/2012 4:15:20 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 4:29:28 PM   
poise


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quote:

ORIGINAL: whatisthewhat

Do women not need to be reassured that yes, we, as human beings, take them just as seriously intellectually and socially as we do a man? And why should we have to engage in such reassurance?

--Probably because women have been taught that their opinions and desires are not what matters in this world.


I have been living a happy and fulfilling life here on earth, and I have never needed reassurance to
speak my mind or offer my opinions. My mind continues to be valued by both genders. That's all
that matters in my world.

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When the path ignites a soul, there’s no remaining in place.

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Profile   Post #: 88
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 4:51:26 PM   
mummyman321


Posts: 2102
Joined: 10/31/2005
From: Dusseldorf
Status: offline 		I do not see it in BDSM in general. But I do see a lot on this board from time to time. But I think it also goes the other way too. The wimmins hates the menz and then the menz hates the wimmins. Its almost like being married :)

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Profile   Post #: 89
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 5:49:34 PM   
AngelOfSilence


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Joined: 5/8/2012
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quote:

And since I post here for my own enjoyment and not yours........yay me!
Indeed.

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 6:33:03 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: poise
My mind continues to be valued by both genders.

Your mind? oh yeah... that's right. It's your mind that I value.

note: for the purposes of this post the term mind may include various bits of supporting biological infrastructure. not valid in all 50 states. must be 18 or older to appreciate poise's mind


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:04:52 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
As I understand this story it has little to do with your gender alignment and everything to do with reading some profile that identified itself as "gorean" and probably spouted a bunch of natural order crap.


I was wondering if that's what happened.

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:42:50 PM   
poise


Posts: 9509
Joined: 7/3/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Your mind? oh yeah... that's right. It's your mind that I value.

note: for the purposes of this post the term mind may include various bits of supporting biological infrastructure. not valid in all 50 states. must be 18 or older to appreciate poise's mind


That's very....reassuring!

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 8:51:18 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		Yes, I like the phrase "bandied about" as well, so I am going to bandy right back (though a bit belatedly.)

Thank you for the definition of misogyny; and yes, it can be overused. I tend to think those who look at women as inferior *DO* hate and mistrust them on some level. Perhaps I am alone in this (though I think not). Mayhaps a topic for further discussion?




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Profile   Post #: 94
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 8:52:57 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelOfSilence

Weak PEOPLE will assume the mantle of dominance to hide their weakness.



There, I fixed it for you.

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Profile   Post #: 95
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 9:19:56 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

Yes, I like the phrase "bandied about" as well, so I am going to bandy right back (though a bit belatedly.)

Thank you for the definition of misogyny; and yes, it can be overused. I tend to think those who look at women as inferior *DO* hate and mistrust them on some level. Perhaps I am alone in this (though I think not). Mayhaps a topic for further discussion?





I am not sure whether I would agree that inferior equals hate. There are things, and even perhaps individuals that I personally see as inferiour but do not hate. There are however, a few people that I believe fear powerful women and therefor hate them. I think that hate is nearly always fear based.

We have, in my time here, had a few dunces that have posted very hateful words, generally geared towards a specific type of person. Looking for every opportunity to start shit with any person that fits a specific category. Example: dominant women. I honestly believe that there are men AND women, that have a personal affinity for male dominated relationships that find a dominant woman and submissive men, repulsive. Their reactions towards dominant women and submissive men is sometimes dismissive and, occasionally, venomously hateful in tone. Because they are so narrow minded that they cannot imagine anything other than their own personal 'one true way' existing, they fear it, find every reason in the world to degrade it, and hate it and anyone that might fit within the parameters of what they distrust and hate. Usually they also lack the self control and self mastery to avoid stepping on their proverbial dicks and don't last long on here.

I learned long ago that the men in the above category do NOT represent all dominant men. Nor do they represent all dominant men that live a gorean philosophy. They only represent their own ignorance. I pity the women that mistake their steadfast ignorance for strength.

ALSO, even though I used dominant women and submissive men as examples, it's certainly not exclusive. I've seen dominant women write horrible things directed towards submissive women and dominant men as well.

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/10/2012 9:24:23 AM >

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 9:55:41 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


Posts: 6562
Joined: 3/22/2011
From: The t'aint of the Midwest -- Indiana
Status: offline 		I entirely get what you mean. I see my cat's as inferior in many ways, however, I do not hate them, I love them.

But you know, as much as I love them, they're cats. They are not humans, so they really are *inferior* in the great big scheme of things. I am not saying all things don't have value, just, in the real world, a person has to be able to make judgement as to how much value.

I would not, for instance, value a cat's life above a human's.

However, men and women are both human beings, and I believe should be valued equally. As soon as you begin even thinking someone is inferior you devalue their worth as a human being. Once you start thinking ALL females are inferior, now you are devaluing an entire gender. And I think that has to come from hate and fear.

Now, I do think it is possible to have a power exchange relationship in which one party is not equal to the other in terms of power in the relationship, and yet, not in any way inferior as a human being.

I labor under the illusion I have this type of relationship with both of the men I am involved with.

Another interesting topic for discussion. Does thinking one gender is inferior automatically make you a misogynist or misandrist?





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Profile   Post #: 97
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 11:10:08 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		I would say it's probably in the why they believe the inferiourity exists, what the measure is. And then how they express that belief.

To ME, there is never that broad of a brush. I can never ever even wrap my head around feeling one gender, race, age, anything that broad, can be used as a measure. That being said, I think that there MAY be traits that COULD be ascribed to a broader spectrum that might be seen as superiour or inferiour. But yet, I cannot measure the whole group even, on that one trait. Example: I feel the female genitalia is superiour. I would never want a dick and balls. But a dick and balls are not a measure of the quality of a man, or men as a whole. Nor do I feel it makes men, as a whole, inferiour to women. Just the genitalia.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to ChatteParfaitt)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 11:33:37 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		Girls are better.

That is all.

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Profile   Post #: 99
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 11:34:21 AM   
Reikm


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

Girls are better.

That is all.


^

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
Profile   Post #: 100
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