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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 2:16:58 PM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt


Another interesting topic for discussion. Does thinking one gender is inferior automatically make you a misogynist or misandrist?



I don't think so. Misandry and misogyny are more about hatred, or at least dislike, and it's possible to see people as inferior without actually disliking them - sort of like your attitude towards your cats.

However, I think "sexist" would be fair word for anyone who considers one gender to be inferior to the other.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 2:48:50 PM   
Karmastic


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Thanks, interesting discussion ChatteParfaitt and LaTig. I think every point raised is good and it just depends on the person - whether it's based on hate, or just ignorance, culture, Etc.

quote:

LadyHibiscus

Girls are better.


Yes, girls are better in the sugar and spice and everything is nice category

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/10/2012 5:29:57 PM   
GotSteel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misogyny
Misogyny ( /mɪˈsɒdʒɪni/) is the hatred of women or girls. According to feminist theory, misogyny can be manifested in numerous ways, including sexual discrimination, denigration of women, violence against women, and sexual objectification of women.[1][2] Misogyny has been characterized as a prominent feature of various religions. In addition, many influential Western philosophers have been described as misogynistic.[1]

DefinitionsAccording to sociologist Allan G. Johnson, "misogyny is a cultural attitude of hatred for females because they are female." Johnson argues that:

"Misogyny .... is a central part of sexist prejudice and ideology and, as such, is an important basis for the oppression of females in male-dominated societies. Misogyny is manifested in many different ways, from jokes to pornography to violence to the self-contempt women may be taught to feel toward their own bodies."[3]
Michael Flood defines misogyny as the hatred of women, and notes:

"Though most common in men, misogyny also exists in and is practiced by women against other women or even themselves. Misogyny functions as an ideology or belief system that has accompanied patriarchal, or male-dominated societies for thousands of years and continues to place women in subordinate positions with limited access to power and decision making. [...] Aristotle contended that women exist as natural deformities or imperfect males [...] Ever since, women in Western cultures have internalised their role as societal scapegoats, influenced in the twenty-first century by multimedia objectification of women with its culturally sanctioned self-loathing and fixations on plastic surgery, anorexia and bulimia."[4]
Dictionaries define misogyny as 'hatred of women'[5][6][7] and as "hatred, dislike, or mistrust of women".[8]


(in reply to Wheldrake)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 4:42:58 PM   
Tyraen


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Since everyone just seemed to ignore my respectful, well thought out post so they could drag out this fucking butthurt that everyone seems to be experiencing, I'm just going to sum this up and end this god awful drama filled thread topic in hopes that some of you will learn for the future.

Got steel posted the actual definition of misogyny (many thanks for that), which is the hatred of women and/or girls, and can in fact have absolutely NOTHING to do with sex whatso fucking ever. Given also the fact (YES, FACT) that dominating a woman sexually IS NOT THE SAME THING AS HATING THEM OR ACTING LIKE YOU HATE THEM, there is no fucking rule saying that they have to go hand in hand. I love dominating a woman, love the feeling of power I have over them sexually where I can do whatever I please and they can do nothing but submit to my will, but you damn better be fucking sure when play is said and done I sure as hell respect their right to be. Everyone is a human being first, gender second, and anyone who thinks otherwise is biased as fuck and has issues. Get over it.

YES the line can sometimes get fuzzy between hate and dominance since they are both come from a source of aggression, and YES some men probably are too STUPID to fucking understand this difference. Does that necessarily mean they HATE WOMEN AND WANT THEM TO ALL BE MISERABLE?? NO!!! It means they don't understand and are ignorant of their position and need to be fucking educated. Are you still going to run into the guy who has subconscious misogynistic tendencies or sexist tendencies and refuses to change his perspective? No fucking duh, but just because you see the fringe edges of something offensive WHOS SOURCE could be anything from ignorance to subconscious issues to just a man being a cocky jerkface. Or better yet, perhaps he just sucked ass at communicating his actual stance on it, and as I said in my previous response, he is just putting out the kind of personality he thinks will get him what he fucking whats, and it is fucking absolutely ignorant and STUPID of any person, man OR woman, to IMMEDIATELY ASSUME THAT IT IS MISOGYNY AND START RANTING AND RAVING ABOUT HOW ALL MEN ARE PIGS AND BLAH BLAH FUCKITY BLAH BLAH BLAH. I don't automatically assume all women are fucking flaky stupid bitches just because every single woman i've contacted on this site and others ended up saying a bunch of shit then completely vanishing off the face of the earth when things started to get real, because don't fucking roll up people I meet into stereotypes. And me hating those kinds of women/girls doesn't mean I hate ALL women or ALL girls, just the lying flaky ones, which really is hate on ATTITUDE rather than their gender.

So instead of being a huge bitch and complaining about it, and rolling out the generalizations, why don't you start learning and asking questions of these offenders that are, according to the OP, "all up in your face" and start REALLY thinking about where they are coming from and why they are doing things.
Educate yourself. It's nothing personal, but I am really sick and tired of all the hypocrisy polluting all the talk around me, be it sexual racial commercial philosophical or whatever. Take this advice: You know fucking absolutely nothing and 90% of the time you are very likely to be WRONG about whatever it is that you say. So before you say it be damn fucking sure it's worth saying, then I think we'd all get along better.

As for everyone else in this thread, it was obvious what the OP's issue was, and people just kept dragging this shit out because they wanted the OP to feel bad or something, which honestly makes you almost as bad as her. People don't need to feel guilty about their mistakes, just as long as they recognize them and vow to improve, that is all that should be required. This horse is dead as fuck, so at risk of casuing more of a shit storm and being hypocritical myself by even posting this huge rant i'm going to say just let it die with this and move on.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 5:53:24 PM   
poise


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Soooo...what you're suggesting in this very long winded and emotionaly charged post of yours is that we be more
patient and tolerable of the cocky jerkfaces who only act as though they hate women?


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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 6:19:05 PM   
Tyraen


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No, i'm saying try to figure out why they are doing it in the first place and once you figure out why they are saying whatever stupid shit that irritates you (which is likely justified), maybe let them know what they're doing is dumb and then you can say why its dumb, then proceed to help with figure out an alternative, so everybody wins! SO yes, I am saying be more tolerable and patient. If you want people to change you can't shit all over someone, because all they will take away from that is they were shit on and then just come to dislike you instead of hear your reasonable message of "please change what it is you're doing, it's offensive/wrong/etc"

and acting like women are inferior and should be dominated as such is not the same as hating, or even acting like you hate women. they are not the same, i said this. When I'm in the bedroom that's how I act, like they are inferior to me, and I post this becausei see women asking for this all the fucking time, and it's what I like. and surprise! I don't hate women. Just some men fail at communicating this most likely, and perhaps it is just a misunderstanding. Maybe it isn't, I don't know I dont exactly look around at other men's profiles since I'm not gay/not interested in seeing the competition, but it seems just as bad to immediately jump to the conclusion that they just hate women and get all huffy and mad about without first investigating it, IF it really means that much to you.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 7:03:05 PM   
LaTigresse


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Most of us don't give a flying fuck and just avoid the douche canoes. Figuring out why they are douche canoes is not worth my time.

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Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 7:14:42 PM   
LadyHibiscus


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I don't feel compelled to analyze every jerk I run across. Nor do I think domiance comes from a place of aggression.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 7:25:58 PM   
RemoteUser


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Looking through this confuses me, but I'm not massive on stereotypes or comments reflective of a social pile (like, all vajayays are...you can't even say pink, just ask the OBGYN).

I can hate a person (and even that is rare), but that feeling doesn't reflect outwards onto their gender or everyone with their name. It's usually a combination of their fumduckery and my spacial proximity to said fumduckery. I can walk.

I don't feel compelled to address people for their typecasting either, unless it's directed specifically at me in a way that asks me to respond. And doesn't that spoil the point of the speaker?

Addressing the OP as exactly as possible - I don't think I've seen a rash of specific pokes at one gender or another outside of a few threads designed for that purpose (there were more of them five years ago). I see more of it in my workplace than here, which is why I'm glad I no longer have to work at the office (except for a few token appearances a month).

Now if we were talking flaming or trashing on an individual...hoo, nelly.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 7:31:28 PM   
Tyraen


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If you don't understand your adversaries, then you will never be able to solve the problems that plague you, which means you have no right to complain about it in the first place, as if you aren't part of the solution then you're part of the problem.

And you DO analyze every jerk you run across. every jerk, white knight, dom sub everyone. Everyone makes judgements and analyzations, you just come to snap quick ones like jerk and assface and cute and blah blah blah, but I really doubt that most of you have ever really taken the time to understand why you do, and whether or not it's actually justified.

You know that trope that you gotta "treat women like garbage" in order to get laid? There is a reason that is still one of the most common pieces of advice older men give to younger men about getting laid/relationships/etc. Most of us know now that's not how you do things if you want to do it right, but yet it is still the most common generlized statement i've heard about wanting to get some action/respect from the ladies. If it is so untrue, why do people still say it? Because A: there is still some truth to it and B: enough people have taken the time to figure out WHY it's partially true and modify the advice to be more accurate. Women don't like jerks, they like strong dominant men who at least have the image of being in control and successful, and in general men who are jerks and assholes personify this, regardless of how successful or smart they actually are, which is why they get the ladies. I know this to be how it is, I've seen it in action with my own eyes. I've had it happen to me too, where there was this girl who was became in me that I had no interest in and just made fun of her (in good humor) all the time and she was all fucking over me (bearing in mind at the time I hadn't had much experience with women at all, so this was kind of a shock to me her reactions).

So since this is such a similar type of thing we are discussing, perhaps from their perspective this is what it takes to get what they want, and it's going to take people like YOU to set them straight, so that they get what they want and their future partners get what they want. For the greater good right? Or is such an endeavor "not worth your time", that you just "dont feel compelled" to do your part to help solve the problems you so readily and easily complain about.

Dominance is power, and gaining power is an aggressive act. Well... it doesn't necessarily need to be aggressive, but any form of dominance we can surely agree is an imposition of will. Someone can only be dominant if there are others around them being submissive, submitting to that dominant's will. You could easily draw parallels between someone gaining power over someone and aggression.

< Message edited by Tyraen -- 5/13/2012 7:35:16 PM >

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/13/2012 7:42:07 PM   
RemoteUser


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Don't you have to acknowledge an adversary before they can be given that definition? Anyone can diss me but they aren't my enemy until I make that choice.

All men are brothers. - Ghandi

If there is no struggle the rest becomes clear - one biased person spouting off at one indifferent individual. Think how that could be used by so many bratty submissives... (and you know who you are! Curses! *shakes his fist to the sky*)

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 3:57:53 AM   
LaTigresse


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And, if the men are so wise, they will read and comprehend that SOME people have continued to say that it's not as simple as 'men' being assholes. If ANYONE believes that men have the market cornered on assholeishness, they are the fool. And have never worked in an environment of primarily women. The most assholish of men wouldn't stand a chance in a typical female dominated work environment.

There are men that hate women, women that hate women, women that hate men and men that hate men. No one gets an exclusive.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 4:04:39 AM   
Toucan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

I actually have to agree with the OP -

Since I read a lot of the Male Dominant/Master profiles, there is more than a large amount of profiles that read basically of just using / trashing / treating you like a piece of shit and there will be no feelings involved - to female subs. They dont even identify that these are human beings that theyre talking about.

Without a doubt to leave the person worse for wear than they originally found them.

Not sure how high their success rate is though.

I find it disgusting.


Not to point out the obvious, but a ton of female dom's profiles are pretty much the same..

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 5:07:37 AM   
RemoteUser


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And, if the men are so wise, they will read and comprehend that SOME people have continued to say that it's not as simple as 'men' being assholes. If ANYONE believes that men have the market cornered on assholeishness, they are the fool. And have never worked in an environment of primarily women. The most assholish of men wouldn't stand a chance in a typical female dominated work environment.

There are men that hate women, women that hate women, women that hate men and men that hate men. No one gets an exclusive.


Aww. I know the statement I made was general (not to mention, with playful and sardonic intent), but it was only directed to one person's comment, and it wasn't yours. Thanks for thinking of the comprehension skills of men in general; mine are good.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 5:11:57 AM   
Tyraen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

And, if the men are so wise, they will read and comprehend that SOME people have continued to say that it's not as simple as 'men' being assholes. If ANYONE believes that men have the market cornered on assholeishness, they are the fool. And have never worked in an environment of primarily women. The most assholish of men wouldn't stand a chance in a typical female dominated work environment.

There are men that hate women, women that hate women, women that hate men and men that hate men. No one gets an exclusive.


All of this is very true...


...but, in my opinion/experience at least, I feel like most of the time if someone is hating on someone else, whether it be racial sexual or whatever, it's really more they hate whatever situation that person put them in when they vent about it they usually talk in emotionally heavy and sweeping terms ; grievously miscommunicating their actual problem because they were mired in their emotions too hard to explain it right. It happens to literally everyone (Not least of all myself), and I think it's something we should all keep in mind when we see someone saying emotionally charging statements so we don't all assume everyone is racist or sexist or whatever-ist.

And everyone needs to vent. I pretty much vented my grievances in that big post I had because I was tired of people ignoring my respectul well thought out posts that address the issue quite nicely just so they can continue to revel in drama. Needing to vent isn't an excuse to be dramatic and narrow minded (which is why i usually apologize for such things when I'm venting IRL)
I don't like drama, and no sane person I know likes drama. So it bothers me to see issues where such things are perpetuated simply so people can argue for arguing's sake.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 5:14:33 AM   
Tyraen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Toucan


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

I actually have to agree with the OP -

Since I read a lot of the Male Dominant/Master profiles, there is more than a large amount of profiles that read basically of just using / trashing / treating you like a piece of shit and there will be no feelings involved - to female subs. They dont even identify that these are human beings that theyre talking about.

Without a doubt to leave the person worse for wear than they originally found them.

Not sure how high their success rate is though.

I find it disgusting.


Not to point out the obvious, but a ton of female dom's profiles are pretty much the same..


This is a good point to make too. I don't personally find it disgusting (mainly because very little actually digusts me), but I do wonder how much success they have over me, who makes an honest attempt to communicate my will to show any of my partners a great deal of respect.

I think that would make for a very interesting academic study.

(in reply to Toucan)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/14/2012 1:05:51 PM   
LaTigresse


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen



...but, in my opinion/experience at least, I feel like most of the time if someone is hating on someone else, whether it be racial sexual or whatever, it's really more they hate whatever situation that person put them in when they vent about it they usually talk in emotionally heavy and sweeping terms ; grievously miscommunicating their actual problem because they were mired in their emotions too hard to explain it right. It happens to literally everyone (Not least of all myself), and I think it's something we should all keep in mind when we see someone saying emotionally charging statements so we don't all assume everyone is racist or sexist or whatever-ist.

And everyone needs to vent. I pretty much vented my grievances in that big post I had because I was tired of people ignoring my respectul well thought out posts that address the issue quite nicely just so they can continue to revel in drama. Needing to vent isn't an excuse to be dramatic and narrow minded (which is why i usually apologize for such things when I'm venting IRL)
I don't like drama, and no sane person I know likes drama. So it bothers me to see issues where such things are perpetuated simply so people can argue for arguing's sake.


Actually, the racists I know, do not even bother to pay attention to the individual and that person's humanity. They simply see skin colour and hate. It's likely one of the most generic, possibly emotional, spewages of shit that ever comes out of their mouths.

People can ignore what you write at will. People will ignore for a variety of reasons. They may not like the look of your posts, wordy, colour of font, lack of paragraphs........are several reasons I ignore a post.

Based upon my life experiences, I will disagree with your opinion about drama. I work with men and two of them seem to attract it like fleas to an alley cat. A lot of people are addicted to drama. If there is none going on, they will create it. Yet, I don't see any of them as being insane. In fact, the reasons for their drama addictions are varied.

On here you will find, if you stick around, there are also varied reasons why people enter into these discussions/debates. You felt the need, you contributed. You posted with some small drama yourself when your post was not acknowledged as you would have liked.

C'est la vie!

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 5/14/2012 1:12:40 PM >


_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to Tyraen)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/15/2012 12:27:49 AM   
Tyraen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

quote:

ORIGINAL: Tyraen



...but, in my opinion/experience at least, I feel like most of the time if someone is hating on someone else, whether it be racial sexual or whatever, it's really more they hate whatever situation that person put them in when they vent about it they usually talk in emotionally heavy and sweeping terms ; grievously miscommunicating their actual problem because they were mired in their emotions too hard to explain it right. It happens to literally everyone (Not least of all myself), and I think it's something we should all keep in mind when we see someone saying emotionally charging statements so we don't all assume everyone is racist or sexist or whatever-ist.

And everyone needs to vent. I pretty much vented my grievances in that big post I had because I was tired of people ignoring my respectul well thought out posts that address the issue quite nicely just so they can continue to revel in drama. Needing to vent isn't an excuse to be dramatic and narrow minded (which is why i usually apologize for such things when I'm venting IRL)
I don't like drama, and no sane person I know likes drama. So it bothers me to see issues where such things are perpetuated simply so people can argue for arguing's sake.


Actually, the racists I know, do not even bother to pay attention to the individual and that person's humanity. They simply see skin colour and hate. It's likely one of the most generic, possibly emotional, spewages of shit that ever comes out of their mouths.

People can ignore what you write at will. People will ignore for a variety of reasons. They may not like the look of your posts, wordy, colour of font, lack of paragraphs........are several reasons I ignore a post.

Based upon my life experiences, I will disagree with your opinion about drama. I work with men and two of them seem to attract it like fleas to an alley cat. A lot of people are addicted to drama. If there is none going on, they will create it. Yet, I don't see any of them as being insane. In fact, the reasons for their drama addictions are varied.

On here you will find, if you stick around, there are also varied reasons why people enter into these discussions/debates. You felt the need, you contributed. You posted with some small drama yourself when your post was not acknowledged as you would have liked.

C'est la vie!


This is about as far off topic as I'm going to go, but have you ever asked yourself if those two men you work with are of good character? Does the drama they wallow in and also create do anyone any good? Or is it just harmful.
I'd wager that it's probably much more harmful than helpful, since i've never encountered any drama that ever did any good for anyone, neither heard nor experienced personally. People "addicted" to drama are people who need to find something they are actually passionate and ambitious about, and are people who just really need to grow up.

and you're right, I did post some dramatic stuff here. But I did it as an exasperated attempt to show people that they care more about drama than they do about helping other's and being upstanding people. And since the topic was originally complaining about people who are selfish and ignorant, I found it extremely hypocritical of everyone responding in blatant agreement with the exact same traits they are bashing. So I made a nice post about how things are not always what they seem and that perspective can be tricked and it takes patience and determination to find out who people really are so we can better get along with each other and not have so much pointless conflict and hurt feelings (since this to ME seems like something that is universally desired)
I was promptly ignored, as if my post didn't even exist, and everyone continued on with their narrow minded opinions and perspectives instead of trying to be more understanding of others.

So I made something far more dramatic and inflammatory to prove that point, and it seems everyone took the bait so readily and easily.

My original reason for posting was to point out that people don't always truly mean what they say, and they will put up whatever front they feel will benefit them the most and fits their persona the best. A lot of the times they are wrong, as with those people who say very generalized statements about submissives and their roles, or how they hold cocky and arrogant attitudes because they believe it to be proper confidence. But they will never truly listen to someone talking down to them or chastising them for their behavior, they will only listen to an understanding voice who cares more about helping them than scolding them.

Maybe I am wrong, maybe all everyone in here wants to do is vent and complain... but I am a firm believer in this: Either work to change the problems of the world, or shut up about it. I vent all the time myself because everyone does need to vent every once in a while, but I do it with my friends because that's part of what friends are for. I don't complain on a message board to strangers without either asking for advice or trying to accomplish some goal, because who should care about that? My only reason for posting in this thread and others is to offer another point of view and get people to think more about what people are doing around them, because if we work to understand more about others around us, we can work to creating a more lasting harmony and a more educated society. And who can argue against that?

Just because someone seems cocky and arrogant online, doesn't mean that's who they are in real life, and it CERTAINLY doesn't mean they are misogynist.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/15/2012 8:23:46 AM   
submaleuk12


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I'd say there's just as much misandy if not more than misogyny in bdsm circles, has anyone else noticed?

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/15/2012 8:29:38 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: submaleuk12

I'd say there's just as much misandy if not more than misogyny in bdsm circles, has anyone else noticed?


There is misandry, but in my experience the level is lower than misogyny.


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