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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 6:35:45 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		I'm beginning to wonder if what the op is finding isn't misogyny per se, but bigotry towards transexuals.

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RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 6:55:00 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		Plenty of that around these days.

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:27:41 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AngelOfSilence

quote:

How do you feel about the owner/property folks (remembering that some of us don't think of that as a kinky game)?
How you think about something doesn't change its essential nature.


Indeed.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:33:28 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CarolBC
Can't quite agree...and can't quite contemplate it without thinking about all the misandry (both here and in our society) that seems to go utterly unnoticed.


Been hanging out in the ask a mistress forum?

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:33:52 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Indeed.

At this point I gotta believe that AngelOfSilence is channelling Arpig. I am sort of curious about your agreement there LaT. What was that "indeed"?


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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:35:19 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline 		I'm just kidding around. I for one support BDSM if it elevates the participants and does not denigrate them or unduly hold them back. Extreme scenarios are sexy in the short term, but on the grand landscape of life-love-meaning-work, its better to be well rounded while developing as many talents and interests as possible while and avoiding abusive, co-dependent relationships with misogynistic, self centered, delusional, narcissistic, jealous, insecure, envious, control freaks.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 5/9/2012 7:38:30 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:53:12 AM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Indeed.

At this point I gotta believe that AngelOfSilence is channelling Arpig. I am sort of curious about your agreement there LaT. What was that "indeed"?



My agreement is that, regardless of how AoS thinks, it does not make her assessment of the Gorean philosophy, or anyone else's for that matter, correct. The only one/s that really know the intent and mindset are the people actually WITH the intent and mindset.

Obviously I am not Gorean. I don't agree with a lot of the philosophy. That doesn't mean I believe all people that do believe the philosophy or identify as Gorean are hateful of women. I am also not a Female Supremist and do not agree with a lot of the philosophy of it. I also do not see those that do identify as Female Supremist's as man haters, as a group as man haters.

I am sure that some Goreans do hate women and I am sure that some Female Supremists hate men. I simply try to see individual humans as individuals rather than faceless 'them'.

So, I used AoS's words against, what I perceived as snark, against a faceless 'them'. How she thinks/perceives something, isn't necessarily correct and doesn't change the essential nature of the philosophy for the people that actually believe and live a philosophy. It's simply her thought.

Granted, that's my convoluted thought process........without a good night's sleep or enough espresso to make up for it.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to JeffBC)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 7:57:58 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Granted, that's my convoluted thought process........without a good night's sleep or enough espresso to make up for it.

*chuckles* Well not all that convoluted since I was following along. I just wanted to make sure. The other alternative seemed so unlike you.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 8:44:41 AM   
Reikm


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline 		=/ This is why I hate putting the fact im trans on things, theres never a discussion that doesn't eventually fall back to that fact.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 9:06:41 AM   
JanahX


Posts: 3443
Joined: 8/21/2010
Status: offline 		Well most have tried to stay on track ...
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reikm

=/ This is why I hate putting the fact im trans on things, theres never a discussion that doesn't eventually fall back to that fact.



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The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 9:10:25 AM   
Blankpain


Posts: 127
Joined: 5/20/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze
it just doesn't mesh well, but still doesn't "devalue" her or makes her a fake.


I don't think anyone actually said that - you assumed it.

It seems we should discuss whether bigotry is involved here.

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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 9:20:04 AM   
Longerthanyou


Posts: 48
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reikm
=/ This is why I hate putting the fact im trans on things, theres never a discussion that doesn't eventually fall back to that fact.


Ignore critical facts and you just might come to the wrong conclusions most of the time.

It matters to many people what you started out as - and it matters to THEM what THEY identify you as.

A donkey isn't a horse no matter how much the donkey feels like a horse. How people treat that donkey is related to how THEY see the donkey, not how the donkey sees itself.



(in reply to Reikm)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 9:25:01 AM   
MrBukani


Posts: 1920
Joined: 4/18/2010
Status: offline 		BDSM people are the nicest peeps in the world. They have so much more honor and respect for things.They are not bipolar at all.Especially the sadists are such wonderfull people.
Just throwin out some lines of the BS you will hear when peeps defend the 'community'.
No haters here, they're all lovers.
Cause I hate women too isnt that right little tiger?

(in reply to Blankpain)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 10:27:15 AM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		~FR~

Gor and misogyny do not go hand in hand. You may indeed find some that will use snippets from the series, a mish mash of some of the philosophy, to support male supremacy, but it is utter bullshit. Those of us that have read the series many times, studied the philosophies used within the series, and discussed these same topics in several places, have come to very similar conclusions with each other.

There will always be some that use anything to hide their personal beliefs, and attempt to point that whatever it is, supports their personal beliefs. These personal beliefs can come from all walks of life, many areas of anything, but it has not much to do with Gorean morality and/or Philosophy. In fact, if someone were to study it more closely they would find that Gorean morality and philosophy supports a huge value placed upon females, as they are complimentary to males in the perpetuation of the species.

Now I do believe that bigotry towards TS may play a huge part in what the OP is getting at, because you will find that often within the Gorean community. It is discussed often, and in great detail. The studies of Sociobiology and Psychiatry cannot support one way or another what causes this, with the smaller percentage that are confirmed biological anomolies. The vote is still out, and the Gorean community does discuss it often. There are those that understand it better than others, just as anyone would, but to label Gor misogynistic is a mischaracterization.

The use of the words misogyny and misandry are way over used in our society today. In fact, female chauvinism is much more acceptable than male chauvinism, as proven by the jokes that are acceptable towards males, but considered unacceptable towards females.

Just because someone has a dick does not make them in charge, but it may make them a dick ;).

Live well,
Orion

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 5/9/2012 10:29:28 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 12:51:33 PM   
Reikm


Posts: 23
Joined: 5/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Longerthanyou



Ignore critical facts and you just might come to the wrong conclusions most of the time.

It matters to many people what you started out as - and it matters to THEM what THEY identify you as.

A donkey isn't a horse no matter how much the donkey feels like a horse. How people treat that donkey is related to how THEY see the donkey, not how the donkey sees itself.





Prettttty sure everyone sees me as a woman at this point, if I didn't say shit about me being trans no one would even know, I only mention it on this site because relationship wise its probably prudent of me to be honest instead of it being a surprise later down the road.

(in reply to Longerthanyou)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:06:52 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reikm
=/ This is why I hate putting the fact im trans on things, theres never a discussion that doesn't eventually fall back to that fact.

Well I'm not leaning on that. As I understand this story it has little to do with your gender alignment and everything to do with reading some profile that identified itself as "gorean" and probably spouted a bunch of natural order crap. I've seen plenty of similar gorean writings online... I can pretty easily imagine what you ran into. It was probably highly sexist (the Gor books are) and probably not misogynistic. So a few points to that.

A) Only a tiny fraction of people who identify as BDSM also identify as gorean.
B) Only some percentage of those who identify as gorean buy into the natural order part of it.
C) There are other parts of the books which directly contradict the sexism (mainly the focus on meritocracy)

And finally, there's a matter of interpretation. Often times when someone writes something like a profile blurb their mindset is wrapped up in them and the relationship they are hoping to build. They may speak about "men" and "women" but they are really referring to "this man" and "this woman". If questioned over a coffee table they would readily acknowledge that what works for them would not work for everyone and should not be applied to everyone.

If it helps you any, there's this bit to laugh about. Consider how pathetically weak it is to rely on some sort of "natural order" to buttress one's sense of dominance or submissiveness. In my own head I'm always laughing and thinking, "So what, you can't master a woman yourself so you need to invent some sort of divine right to help you out?"

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to Reikm)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:35:58 PM   
AngelOfSilence


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/8/2012
Status: offline
quote:

what I perceived as snark,
Your perception is wrong.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:39:40 PM   
LaTigresse


Posts: 26123
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline 		Doesn't matter, my point still rings true.

_____________________________

My twisted, self deprecating, sense of humour, finds alot to laugh about, in your lack of one!

Just because you are well educated, articulate, and can use big, fancy words, properly........does not mean you are right!

(in reply to AngelOfSilence)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:41:11 PM   
AngelOfSilence


Posts: 119
Joined: 5/8/2012
Status: offline 		A point that didn't need making as I had already made it.

_____________________________

My lack of concern for your sensibilities knows no bounds.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: misogyny in BDSM - 5/9/2012 1:41:48 PM   
Karmastic


Posts: 1650
Joined: 4/5/2012
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		Sure, it's out there everywhere. It's all a matter of degree for all of us. I don't really know if there's more or less misogyny (or misandry for that matter) in BDSM. I kind of doubt it, and it's more a stupid act of what they think people expect from a dom (or a sub for that matter).

As others have touched on, I think sometimes we see and hear what we expect (or want) to hear based on where our own head is at. Sometimes we react a certain way because someone (or something someone said) reminds us of some negative experience (I.e., baggage). And then as humans can and do, some people project the way they think onto others, and expect others think the same way. Then based on that invalid starting point, some people will come to some negative (and factually invalid) assumptions about some person on the internet that they don't really know. Specifically, what the motives are of this person they don't know (or understand). I.e., they're a misogynist.

Good example, happened to me recently. Someone on this board doesn't like me, and while posting to say so, they observed (incorrectly) that I seem to only have problems with women, and not men. They then assumed I'm at best sexist, and at worst, a misogynist. But the reality was and is, that up to that very point, I didn't even know the sex/gender of the person saying these horrible things (that I had a problem with her because she was a woman). So the truth is/was, the source of any misogyny or misandry existing was emanating from that person, not me.

I think that's the case often, for all of us (including me).


< Message edited by Karmastic -- 5/9/2012 1:49:57 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 80
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