RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's

RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (Full Version)

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Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 6:53:06 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Do you really want government involved in your healthcare? It will be imperative. Just as it is for roads and electricity, for example. . MM, is there anything which, in your opinion, there is not an imperative for governmental involvement? Ok, roads. The fact that roads are state operated (there is a libertarian case for them being private) does not equate to government run healthcare. Roads facilitate commerce (and travel). Roads do not determine what is transported, whom may transport, between whom what is transported, nor at what total cost. Roads do not determine whom travels, by what conveyance one travels, where one travels, or at what ultimate cost. Unlike many libertarians I see roads as state necessary due to their nature. Competing road systems is facially illogical. This goes also for electrical distribution. Same can be said for water, sewer, etc where applicable. If you were correct MM, then would it not also apply to telephone? Internet? Airlines? Ground carriers? These all function quite well via market forces and need no government involvement in your choices other than oversight (being a legitimate function of government). Roads do facilitate commerce, but it's the competition on the roads, not the roads themselves, which is healthcare. Why, in your opinion, is healthcare more akin to roads than telephone, internet, or with whom you ship your packages? Do you believe government can provide healthcare at the same or lower costs than the marketplace? Can government distribute it as effectively?

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day Question /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's and con's (5/29/2012 6:53:08 AM)
Bingo.

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:08:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Marini Do you think/believe that people that can't afford insurance, or get quality "free care" from whatever is available for them these days, should just die? Many of us know for a FACT, that you often do not get anywhere near the same level of care for many medical conditions without good insurance. Would you have any sort of validation for this insipid opinion? quote: Without GOOD insurance in the United States: You almost always do NOT, get the same level of care, consideration, CHOICE of physicians, availability to see specialists, in-depth tests, labs, etc. medications, protocols, second opinions, treatment OPTIONS,or even availability of appointments, etc. I do and I have no insurance. I live in the u.s. The federal government provides for all of my health care needs as outlined above and far in excess for less cost. quote: Please be honest, I need to hear it. I do think this is how many people feel, but are too chicken shit to just admit it. Most people would have acquainted themselves with the facts and would be ashamed to post such idiotic nonsense. Are you a insurance salesman? quote: Do you think/believe that people that can't afford insurance, or get quality "free care" from whatever is available for them these days, should just die? quote: What I think is irrelevant In addition to being ignorant and unsubstantiated. quote: Let me give you one fact. No matter if one is in the UK, EU, Australia, Canada, etc... Not everyone who needs shall receive. That is a fact due to limited resources, both in materials and costs. This exists whether in the free market or government controlled providing. Once again a half truth trying to supprt a whole lie. The difference here is in the level of who shall recieve. First: Do not equate "free market" with "capitalism" They are not the same. They are anti-thetical to one another and mutually exclusive. second: In the for profit insurance system service is limited by how much you (the idividual) can pay. In he socialized medicine system service is limited by what the not for profit system decides is most appropriate. Due to the economies of scale it is reasonable to expect that level of care to be higher by several orders of magnitude from the best available from for profit sources. quote: Therefore I prefer the free market which has shown itself to be better at pricing and distribution than any governmental body, in any respect. You have shown absolutely no evidence to support this peurile nonsense. quote: I don't want to get off track but I think it should be noted that governmental intrusions into the market always skew it. Oversight for fraud, corruption etc are not skewing intrusions. Fraud, corruption, etc. are skews. Would you have some sort of validation for this nonsense or are we to take this fabrication as "ex cathedra"? quote: Many of us know for a FACT, that you often do not get anywhere near the same level of care for many medical conditions without good insurance. Insurance is one of those things that when done right and for the proper purpose is a good thing. Unfortunately, when government gets involved beyond oversight and intrudes in the insurance market there exists a skew. For instance this skew is seen in states where i.e. one is both required to have car insurance and is also denied the ability to shop for the best coverage at the best price (cross state lines, even go foreign); states limiting competition denies the market finding lower prices. Where there is greater competition lower prices will be found. Which state denies you the right to shop for competitive prices among those insurers licensed to do business in that state? Which state denies you the right to self insure? quote: The medical industry is highly skewed these days due to many and various factors, not the least of which is government. Again your post is filled with unsubstantiated inane rhetoric....would it be within your capabilities to at least allude to whch of these "various factors" the government contributes to the problem or must we guess? quote: It's the high cost stuff that's really at stake. Would you prefer private insurance where you have the choice of insurance, meaning the right to contract for your insurance needs with whatever insurance company you choose, or would you prefer government bureaucrats telling you what insurance you shall receive and what you shall pay? It seems to suit your purpose to conflate all bad decisions of government to some nameless bureaucrat. When the govt had a problem...remember the statement "houston we have a problem"...If I remember correctly the "nameless govt. bureaucrats" managed to solve that problem. The insurance corporations operate from a "for profit" mindset...why do you presume that those charged with administering a socialized medicine progrm would be likewise motivated? quote: The insurance industry is broken like everything else is. No it is not it is making money for the shareholders at near record rates. quote: Government is not the answer. You would have the faux guard the hen house?

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:17:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Would you have any sort of validation for this insipid opinion? The last time you used that word, insipid, I shoved it up your #$$. You're still a whiny little ^%#$@.

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:25:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Marini What is the answer? Good question. I must defer to the answer lying within one's own ideology. One's ideology forms a basis for choice. Choice has consequences, both intended and unintended. One must live with the results. The question to me is whether one can parse out just what those consequences might be. My answer is simple. I trust myself and the free markets as to me over some government bureaucrat administrator. Life is not fair but bring it on no matter. I'll give it my best shot. You give it your best shot with all of the government services that are available to you. You have nothing of your own creation...all that you posses is the direct result of those who have preceeded you. quote: Tell me something Marini, who has your best interests in hand? You or the government? Do you really believe that your political representatives (law makers) actually care more about you than you? Since as you say you have your own best interests at hear thos you vote for must also otherwse you would not have voted for them. quote: Some would say they must, as they watch our every move, read our mail, listen to our conversations, grope us at airports to keep us safe [;)], give our money to their friends [8\|], imprison someone for a joint and let white collar criminals go free, make backroom deals in the dead of night, and on it goes. Your post seems to be unable to differentiate between criminals who are politicians and politicians who are not criminals. Why is that? Is there any reason for that mindset other than to confuse the discussion by claimig that any solotions from that quarter are ipso facto wrong and criminal in their inception and administration? quote: Do you really want government involved in your healthcare? Do you really want corporations involved in nuclear regulatory oversight? Do you really want corporations involved in weaponizing outer space? Do you really want corporations involved in natioal defense? Do you really want corporations involved in public safety? Yes I really want the government involved in our countries health care because it is too important to be trusted to the ones who have shown that they are too incompetent to administer the one that the corporations have put in place.

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:26:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Would you have any sort of validation for this insipid opinion? The last time you used that word, insipid, I shoved it up your #$$. You're still a whiny little ^%#$@. Your post assumes facts not in evidence

SternSkipper -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:34:53 AM)
quote: ^%#$** Wow I can't believe you called Thompson a "^%#$" He must be just wringing his hands in anguish. I can't imagine how I'd feel if someone called me a/an "^%#$**" [image]http://www.smileyvault.com/albums/userpics/10404/rotfl9.gif[/image]

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 7:53:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery quote: Do you really want government involved in your healthcare? It will be imperative. Just as it is for roads and electricity, for example. . MM, is there anything which, in your opinion, there is not an imperative for governmental involvement? Ok, roads. The fact that roads are state operated (there is a libertarian case for them being private) does not equate to government run healthcare. We would be willing to listen to such a case should you be bold enough to start a thread about such. quote: Roads facilitate commerce (and travel). Roads do not determine what is transported, whom may transport, between whom what is transported, nor at what total cost. Were you to check the rules and regulations of the icc you will find that your opinions are at odds with the law. One is limited in weight per wheel as well as total weight, length,width and height. What may be transported and what may not. Who may operate and who may not and how long and under what circumstances. By controling fees so also are minimum costs for use. quote: Roads do not determine whom travels, by what conveyance one travels, where one travels, or at what ultimate cost. The state does control who may operate a vehicle and what the particulars to which that vehicle must conform. Since the state has the ability to limit (by law) any persons personal freedom likewise it follows that they control access to the highways. The u.s. has the largest number of persons incarcerated in the world both per capita and total. Those people cannot access the transportation system. Unlike many libertarians I see roads as state necessary due to their nature. Competing road systems is facially illogical. This goes also for electrical distribution. Same can be said for water, sewer, etc where applicable. If you can see a need for it here why is it so difficult to see it's obvious inclusion of health care? quote: If you were correct MM, then would it not also apply to telephone? Internet? Airlines? Ground carriers? How many telephone companies are there? Do they not operate as a govt sanctioned monopoly? How many airlines are there? Do they not operate as a govt sanctioned monopoly? For satellite internet how many satellites are there and who owns them? Does it not operate as a govt sanctioned monopoly? How many wireless networks are there? Do they not operate as a govt sanctioned monopoly? How many hard wire networks are there? quote: These all function quite well via market forces and need no government involvement in your choices other than oversight (being a legitimate function of government). You have a rather incomplete understanding of the transportation industry if you believe that things are better off now than before dereguation. quote: Roads do facilitate commerce, but it's the competition on the roads, not the roads themselves, Not exactly...The car drivers subsidise the trucking companies through unequal taxation. quote: which is healthcare. Why, in your opinion, is healthcare more akin to roads than telephone, internet, or with whom you ship your packages? Do you believe government can provide healthcare at the same or lower costs than the marketplace? Can government distribute it as effectively? It clearly has demonstrated the ability to do so. Compare ups to usps for the same services. Compare the heath care that congress gets to the best that is available from a for profit co.

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 8:02:49 AM)
quote: MM, is there anything which, in your opinion, there is not an imperative for governmental involvement? Why is it, that a position that some things are best run by government or government oversight, is immediately misstated as the silly crap you've listed above? Neither I nor anyone else has ever said the government needs to be in everything. What's the point of having a "discussion" with someone who is just making things up? Nor is it logical to conclude that because some things are best not run by government, that nothing should be. We could have an Econ 101 discussion of how incredibly huge horizons to economies of scale indicate natural monopolies in some industries. Or you could learn the basics yourself. But since you're just going to make up shit, what's the point? Enjoy your Land of Make Believe.

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 8:49:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx When the govt had a problem...remember the statement "houston we have a problem"...If I remember correctly the "nameless govt. bureaucrats" managed to solve that problem. I could not leave this alone[8D] "Hey Christa, remember NASA's finest hour? You're in the best of hands. Climb aboard. You're going to have a blast!"

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 8:58:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Since as you say you have your own best interests at hear thos you vote for must also otherwse you would not have voted for them. When have I ever stated that I vote? quote: quote:thompsonx Your post assumes facts not in evidence [sm=owned.gif]

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 9:15:20 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: quote:Yachtie Unlike many libertarians I see roads as state necessary due to their nature. Competing road systems is facially illogical. This goes also for electrical distribution. Same can be said for water, sewer, etc where applicable. If you can see a need for it here why is it so difficult to see it's obvious inclusion of health care? Because its inclusion is anything but. That's why! I find I really have only one question for you. Are you on drugs? The rest of your ramblings are inane.

vincentML -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 9:20:54 AM)
quote: I left out safety and edu as the goalposts are expanding a bit far to make the point. First, you say the community has an obligation. Should we live in the same community, by what authority do you say that obligation extends to me in any moral or humane way? On what basis do you say that? Moral? Suppose I'm not a moral man? Humane? Suppose I'm anything but humane. Now whether I would contribute or not is not the point. What is the point is that you say the community obligation extends to me. Really? Make me! Or you could pass a law and make it a legal duty. You might regard a legal duty as moral or even humane, but it's the legal duty forcing compliance else why would you need it? Yachtie! Firstly, let's get it straight. I did not say the obligation extends to you personally. Please, don't invent strawman bullshit. There are many inhumane and immoral people. There are psychopaths and theives as well. I clearly said it was a community obligation. We come together as a community to provide for our mutual well-being because we know we cannot, dare not depend on fucked up individuals for distributive justice. It is the moral raison d'etre for social organization. quote: If your individual having a moral and humane right to healthcare wants it from me, come pick my pocket. That's the only way you'll get it. Now, unless your granted license by government whereby such pickpocketing is made legal, you'd be a thief. Isn't that what being a thief is, one who assumes a right to your [........] and helps themselves without your permission? Really, are you pounding your fists and kicking your feet against the floor? The community decided it wants every individual child to have the right to an education. You have been taxed to support that community endeavor. The community may very well decide to do the same for healthcare. Your choice then is to pay the tax or become an outlaw. No one said that you personally have a moral duty. Try to keep it straight. [8\|] Vincent

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 10:07:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: I left out safety and edu as the goalposts are expanding a bit far to make the point. First, you say the community has an obligation. Should we live in the same community, by what authority do you say that obligation extends to me in any moral or humane way? On what basis do you say that? Moral? Suppose I'm not a moral man? Humane? Suppose I'm anything but humane. Now whether I would contribute or not is not the point. What is the point is that you say the community obligation extends to me. Really? Make me! Or you could pass a law and make it a legal duty. You might regard a legal duty as moral or even humane, but it's the legal duty forcing compliance else why would you need it? Yachtie! Firstly, let's get it straight. I did not say the obligation extends to you personally. Please, don't invent strawman bullshit. There are many inhumane and immoral people. There are psychopaths and theives as well. I clearly said it was a community obligation. We come together as a community to provide for our mutual well-being because we know we cannot, dare not depend on fucked up individuals for distributive justice. It is the moral raison d'etre for social organization. quote: If your individual having a moral and humane right to healthcare wants it from me, come pick my pocket. That's the only way you'll get it. Now, unless your granted license by government whereby such pickpocketing is made legal, you'd be a thief. Isn't that what being a thief is, one who assumes a right to your [........] and helps themselves without your permission? Really, are you pounding your fists and kicking your feet against the floor? The community decided it wants every individual child to have the right to an education. You have been taxed to support that community endeavor. The community may very well decide to do the same for healthcare. Your choice then is to pay the tax or become an outlaw. No one said that you personally have a moral duty. Try to keep it straight. [8\|] Vincent I did not say the obligation extends to you personally. Please, don't invent strawman bullshit. I clearly said it was a community obligation. We come together as a community ... If the obligation is incumbent upon the Community, then how is it not incumbent upon Community members, me being one of them? Strawman bullshit? Hardly. But I do smell some BS. You have been taxed to support that community endeavor. Back that truck up!!!! What ever happened to your moral / humane argument as obligation? Are you abandoning it in favor of legality? Forcing my participation via government edict (removing my right to choose) because you can't get my participation any other way? Have you no Right to my participation that you must resort to legal coercion? OMG, you're drowning in your own argument. quote: ORIGINAL: vincentML quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne the state claims it has the "right" to collect taxes. Another misuse of the word, by the state, made by people who do not know better. The state has powers, not rights. Even the wording of the US Constitution shows government has power and not rights; i.e. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes ... You'll not find anywhere in the US Constitution, nor any state Constitution I believe, the word "right" assigned to government. Maybe we should consider it a moral right that trumps a lack of Constitutional right. Sort of like the humane right to food, clothing, and shelter. No one said that you personally have a moral duty. Then what of your moral right? Oh that's right. You don't have one!!! So best to get government to do it via lawful edict. There's the bullshit. Knew I smelled it coming from somewhere[8\|] What's this whole thread about? Is HC a right or a privilege. Well you've amply demonstrated it isn't any right.

papassion -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 10:35:10 AM)
If healthcare is a right, don't the people that demand that right have any obligations to try to stay healty to earn that right? Eating like a pig, smoking, unsafe sex, not exercising, drinking, ect., is like saying "I demand the RIGHT to jump off a cliff! And you better take care of me when I hit the bottom! Did any of you see that healthcare special Sunday on CNN? Farook whats his name hosted. I was surprized to learn that MOST healthcare overseas was payed for with PRIVATE insurance! Their citizens are required to purchase private healthcare insurance. In England, which one poster said had a really good system, healthcare costs are INCREASING and with the government paying, Said Hospitals have no incentive to lower costs. And CNN said there are wait times in the past, as high os 18 MONTHS to get admitted to a hospital! they have taken steps to reduce that wait time to something like 12-16 weeks. Also, CNN showed in England, there ARE medical boards that determine what they will and what they will NOT PAY FOR. (does anyone remember Sarah saying "death panels" and the Obama gang lying, saying "death panel talk" was bullshit?) Costs increasing and long wait times? Doesn't sound like a good system to me!

Musicmystery -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 10:37:22 AM)
And yet, our health care costs are the highest in the world.

Yachtie -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 10:55:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Musicmystery And yet, our health care costs are the highest in the world. And? Just why is that? Of course it has nothing to do with Big Pharma lobbying gov't for special exemptions, favors, etc. I mean, why is it that we cannot order phama goods from Canada? Why are we limited in our insurance choices? Does the regulatory burden increase costs? What about legal? Think that has any lobby in DC? Does FDA have anything to do with it? Why do new drugs, etc take so long to get to market here? Why are some foreign procedures that work well, and lower costs, not allowed here? protectionism for Big Pharma possibly? Insurance extracts from us to pay med care. med care need not watch costs and can even raise them as more may be extracted by insurance from us. Ever feel like you're drowning and some [authority?] is holding the line keeping your head barely above water, only to remind you that such shall continue only as long as the extraction continues?

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 11:06:33 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx When the govt had a problem...remember the statement "houston we have a problem"...If I remember correctly the "nameless govt. bureaucrats" managed to solve that problem. I could not leave this alone[8D] "Hey Christa, remember NASA's finest hour? You're in the best of hands. Climb aboard. You're going to have a blast!" Your post seems to ignore the most sailent factors defining the two incidents. Peurile minds form fatuous conclusions from random factors.

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 11:12:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Since as you say you have your own best interests at hear thos you vote for must also otherwse you would not have voted for them. When have I ever stated that I vote? quote: quote:thompsonx Your post assumes facts not in evidence [sm=owned.gif] Are you stating now that you do not vote? If that is the case by what province do you presume to discuss this subject? If you are a citizen of this country you have given your consent to be governed by the laws of this country. That you do not choose to vote does not remove you consent to be governed by the laws of this country.

thompsonx -> RE: Memorial Day /Is health care a Privilege or a Right? pro's/con's (5/29/2012 11:15:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Yachtie quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: quote:Yachtie Unlike many libertarians I see roads as state necessary due to their nature. Competing road systems is facially illogical. This goes also for electrical distribution. Same can be said for water, sewer, etc where applicable. If you can see a need for it here why is it so difficult to see it's obvious inclusion of health care? Because its inclusion is anything but. That's why! I find I really have only one question for you. Are you on drugs? The rest of your ramblings are inane. Inane????is that your euphimism for being too ignorant to respond with a cogent and substantiated answer?

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