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Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 9:45:55 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline 		On the WalMart thread, a "needs based" economy was brought up.

YSG commented thusly:

    "No, no a resource based economy, but an economy based on need instead of profit, where we work with each other instead of for each other."


That drives me to think about what needs we, as a people, as a Nation, as a world have. What needs aren't being met and who's needs aren't being met.

YSG also posited:

    "My issue with the world at large is that most people do not see that there IS another way. Greed is a superficial emotion, driven by petty insecurity. Money has no value except what WE place on it. Production and progress are the very nature of mankind, they need no external stimuli. We were not ment to live like this, enslaved to our employers through debt and the need of money. "


While he is correct that money, in and of itself, doesn't hold any value, it does represent value. It is a useful unit of trade. Looking at it as anything else should not be done. You can say that it is "purchasing power." One who holds a lot of money, has the power or ability to purchase more than one who holds less money.

I'm very interested in a civil discussion - it has to be civil or else we'll not be discussing anything, just flaming back and forth; I'll do my part if you do yours - about needs and wants. What needs are there and what constitutes a need vs. a want.

Go.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)
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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 10:36:30 AM   
subrob1967


Posts: 4591
Joined: 9/13/2004
Status: offline 		In a communist utopia there wouldn't be any incentive to change anything. If Joe the plumber is making or has the same amount of "widgets" as Colleen the CEO, where is the incentive for Joe to branch out and start his own plumbing business?

While I'm sure there are selfless people out there, willing to do twice the work as their neighbor. Sooner or later they will come to realize that the neighbor has stopped working all together, because of his extra effort, and either stop working so hard, or become unable to carry the neighbor's load.

Communism is a race to the bottom, Capitalism is a race to the top, where would you rather hang your hat?



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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 12:28:11 PM   
DomKen


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Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Both systems are fatally flawed.

Communism rejects human nature which of course does not work for long.

Capitalism amplifies the worst aspects of humanity and has repeatedly failed and been propped back up due to a lack of a better idea.


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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 12:33:47 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


I'm very interested in a civil discussion - it has to be civil or else we'll not be discussing anything, just flaming back and forth; I'll do my part if you do yours - about needs and wants. What needs are there and what constitutes a need vs. a want.

Needs are to survive, wants are to thrive. Pretty much my take on the issue.

_____________________________

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Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 12:34:30 PM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
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Status: offline 		Sounds about right.

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 1:25:59 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

In a communist utopia there wouldn't be any incentive to change anything. If Joe the plumber is making or has the same amount of "widgets" as Colleen the CEO, where is the incentive for Joe to branch out and start his own plumbing business?


You don't actually know who Colleen is, do you? Well ... at least the gibberish above doesn't indicate it ... nor does it indicate much of anything really...

FAIL

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 1:29:07 PM   
subrob1967


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SternSkipper

quote:

In a communist utopia there wouldn't be any incentive to change anything. If Joe the plumber is making or has the same amount of "widgets" as Colleen the CEO, where is the incentive for Joe to branch out and start his own plumbing business?


You don't actually know who Colleen is, do you? Well ... at least the gibberish above doesn't indicate it ... nor does it indicate much of anything really...

FAIL


Um, the only fail I see here is you and the picture you tried so desperately to post.

Here ya go Skippy...





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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 1:35:28 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Needs are to survive, wants are to thrive. Pretty much my take on the issue.


He's going to want to complicate it a good deal more... but I'm all for your economy of words.





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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 1:39:09 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Needs are to survive, wants are to thrive. Pretty much my take on the issue.


Catchy phrase but what does it mean "to thrive?"

If, as you say, needs are to survive, does the Community have an obligation to provide those needs to every individual or are those needs justly and properly available only to those who can afford them? In other words, are needs only for sale? If so, are they really needs or just commodities?

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 1:45:20 PM   
SternSkipper


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quote:

Um, the only fail I see here is you and the picture you tried so desperately to post.

Here ya go Skippy...


What a dickless response ... the prisoners are awaiting their 8balls

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 2:17:47 PM   
jlf1961


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From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		Okay, how in the hell can a needs based economy even work?

It is the consumer's wants that drive an economy to expand and grow.



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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 2:33:18 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Both systems are fatally flawed.
Communism rejects human nature which of course does not work for long.
Capitalism amplifies the worst aspects of humanity and has repeatedly failed and been propped back up due to a lack of a better idea.


Few will disagree with you that Capitalism is flawed. I'm not one of them. There isn't an unflawed system out there. Communism, socialism, etc. have all been tried and failed several times over. While Capitalism isn't perfect, either, it still has done one helluva job building our standard of living here. You want to talk about income and wealth disparities, look at what we have in the US vs. what others have outside of the US. Look how much we have. Look at how large our properties are. It's ridiculous. Better hope there isn't a World-wide "Occupy the USA" movement. We could be fucked.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 2:36:26 PM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
I'm very interested in a civil discussion - it has to be civil or else we'll not be discussing anything, just flaming back and forth; I'll do my part if you do yours - about needs and wants. What needs are there and what constitutes a need vs. a want.

Needs are to survive, wants are to thrive. Pretty much my take on the issue.


Thanks for the response, Bita. I would appreciate if you'd expound on the first part, and if you'd comment on where these needs aren't being met by our profit-based economy.

Again, thanks.

_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 3:49:09 PM   
vincentML


Posts: 9980
Joined: 10/31/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Few will disagree with you that Capitalism is flawed. I'm not one of them. There isn't an unflawed system out there. Communism, socialism, etc. have all been tried and failed several times over. While Capitalism isn't perfect, either, it still has done one helluva job building our standard of living here. You want to talk about income and wealth disparities, look at what we have in the US vs. what others have outside of the US. Look how much we have. Look at how large our properties are. It's ridiculous. Better hope there isn't a World-wide "Occupy the USA" movement. We could be fucked.


Look at what we have vs others? Some will argue that historically, American Capitalism has exploited other nations just as British Colonialism did.

How large our properties are? Feudalism was based upon large land owners being served by numerous peasants. Is American Capitalism so different in structure? Large Corporations being served by wage slaves?


< Message edited by vincentML -- 6/8/2012 3:50:54 PM >

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 3:50:50 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri


Thanks for the response, Bita. I would appreciate if you'd expound on the first part, and if you'd comment on where these needs aren't being met by our profit-based economy.

Again, thanks.

Well, I'm a very basic sort of gal. Needs = food, water and protection from the elements. If you have those three basics, you can survive. Miss any one of them and you're either at risk or you're going to die. Starvation is not the problem in the US that it is in other parts of the world (although malnutrition continues to be a problem here) still, we have citizens who die of starvation, lack of drinkable water and exposure to the elements.

I guess it boils down to perspective, in a land so rich in resources as the US, is one citizen dying from starvation one too many? Is one citizen freezing to death one too many? A question each of us have to answer for ourselves then, I suppose, vote for those who are most in agreement with what, if anything, should or can be done about the situation.

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to DesideriScuri)
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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 4:04:08 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Both systems are fatally flawed.
Communism rejects human nature which of course does not work for long.
Capitalism amplifies the worst aspects of humanity and has repeatedly failed and been propped back up due to a lack of a better idea.


Few will disagree with you that Capitalism is flawed. I'm not one of them. There isn't an unflawed system out there. Communism, socialism, etc. have all been tried and failed several times over. While Capitalism isn't perfect, either, it still has done one helluva job building our standard of living here. You want to talk about income and wealth disparities, look at what we have in the US vs. what others have outside of the US. Look how much we have. Look at how large our properties are. It's ridiculous. Better hope there isn't a World-wide "Occupy the USA" movement. We could be fucked.

Actually the fact is that the US did not build wealth, except in the hands of the very few, until we started adopting a hybrid capitalist/socialist system.

The anti trust laws at the turn of the 20th century.
Unemloyment insurance and workers compensation in the teens.
Laws requiring owners to negotiate fairly with unions in 30's
Social Security
the GI Bill
A very progressive tax structure
Medicare

As a matter of fact the decline of the US middle class can be traced to the exact moment when these acomplishments started being systematically undermined.

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 4:04:29 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I'm very interested in a civil discussion - it has to be civil or else we'll not be discussing anything, just flaming back and forth; I'll do my part if you do yours - about needs and wants. What needs are there and what constitutes a need vs. a want.

Go.


I will come back later, and contribute to this interesting topic.
I like your take charge attitude.

I agree in order to have a discussion, we do need people that are capable of having a "civil" conversation.

Needs Vs. Wants on the surface seems like a straight forward topic, but these days, it is not really that straight forward.



_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
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Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 4:39:10 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
where these needs aren't being met by our profit-based economy.

Somebody who can't find a job to pay the mortgage and feed their kids because the profit based economy has deemed it cheaper to shift all of the manufacturing out of the country is the most obvious example of that one.

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I like to think he was eaten by rats, in the dark, during a fog. It's what he would have wanted...
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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 4:49:49 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967


While I'm sure there are selfless people out there, willing to do twice the work as their neighbor. Sooner or later they will come to realize that the neighbor has stopped working all together, because of his extra effort, and either stop working so hard, or become unable to carry the neighbor's load.



Exactly Karl Marx's thinking. Except he was thinking more about the idle ruling class, of course.


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RE: Needs Vs. Wants - 6/8/2012 5:02:01 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: subrob1967

In a communist utopia there wouldn't be any incentive to change anything. If Joe the plumber is making or has the same amount of "widgets" as Colleen the CEO, where is the incentive for Joe to branch out and start his own plumbing business?

While I'm sure there are selfless people out there, willing to do twice the work as their neighbor. Sooner or later they will come to realize that the neighbor has stopped working all together, because of his extra effort, and either stop working so hard, or become unable to carry the neighbor's load.

Communism is a race to the bottom, Capitalism is a race to the top, where would you rather hang your hat?




Much too black and white.

It isn't about complete selflessness, nor is it about complete selfishness. If everyone were completely selfish, none of us would take those jobs that don't pay well but bring a lot of satisfaction of a different - and more selfless - kind. There'd be no teachers, nurses, firefighters, church ministers . . . etc, etc, etc.

To mirror that 'anti-black-and-whiteness', and writ large:

Socialism doesn't work if by 'socialism' we're talking of a command economy like that of the former USSR. Capitalism doesn't work if we're talking of the kind of free-for-all that led to the Great Depression. So what we do is organise mixed economies. These *have* and *do* work.

There's your starting point.


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