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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/2/2012 5:56:25 PM   
Aynne88


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Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: GotSteel

.......Oppression makes a certain number of people angry. When you're talking about any movement pushing back against oppression they are probably going to be a bit riled up. For instance people walking down the street screaming we're here we're queer get used to it aren't doing so because of how well they've been treated.






Yep ditto what she said!! And also Steel!

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As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
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Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/2/2012 6:03:22 PM   
LookieNoNookie


Posts: 12216
Joined: 8/9/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KaleidoKenlyn

I occasionally get hate mail due to the fact that my profile starts off with a quote from a feminist but I am a submissive.

I'd like to know what you sweethearts think.


Honey, I know all about haters...I have a 29 inch cock....last time I had a hard on I lost consciousness for 3 days.

I get it....haters are everywhere. Don't worry about it.

(in reply to KaleidoKenlyn)
Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/2/2012 6:15:31 PM   
sexyred1


Posts: 8998
Joined: 8/9/2007
Status: offline 		I don't even engage with anyone who is so confused that they think that being a feminist has anything to do with sexuality or submission.

It is so patently ridiculous when men or women think that standing up for your rights or wanting equality is at odds with your intimate relationships.

For those who envy the 50's, you are sorely mistaken if you think it was all Ozzie and Harriet.

People who are dissatisfied with their lives always look back to other times, even without knowing the inside story of those times.

As for the perception that feminists are man haters? Nah. It is individuals who are hated, not an entire gender.


(in reply to LookieNoNookie)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/3/2012 2:36:03 PM   
Firebirdseeking


Posts: 477
Joined: 9/3/2006
Status: offline 		I dont think its a generational thing. I think that we women can be staunchly supportive of the equality of sexes, and still have submissive personal needs. There is no contradiction here. I had to cross that hurdle early on, and I am very comfortable with it now. I can be dominant in my profession, but when I come home, and in my personal llfe, my needs are different.

(in reply to NiceButMeanGirl)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/3/2012 7:00:47 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Never played sports a day in my life. Have no interest in joining the armed services. Being a navy wife was more than enough for me. Have no interest in the other professions either. Thank gawd lol. That's not to say other women may find an interest in all of those. I just haven't and probably another reason why I never felt I was a feminist. I've never felt oppressed as a woman because the things that interest me are not what the stereotype of a man are. I'm pretty much all female characteristics. Give me a day at the spa, nice makeup, shoes, clothes, shopping, etc...lol

Tell me to pick up a hammer or take a job involving math? Not a chance in hell. lol



Your daughter ever play sports? Mine did. She got to attend national competitions which didn't use to accept girls.

Your daughter or any of her friends want to be engineers or managers instead of secretaries? Or are you saying you wish she has to accept sexual harassment, assault and rape in order to get and keep a job? You want for her to marry a guy who when he gets drunk, punches her, and have the cops turn their backs when she goes to them for protection? Because that's the other side of the good old days.


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Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/3/2012 8:07:51 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		No, she never played sports and hates it as much as I do.My daughter is extremely girly girl in that she loves clothes and makeup to the point that she has at least 3 different outfits she wears everyday and makeup and accessories to go with each one. She's also going to school to be a chef because she loves to cook. As for the rest I think you're really stretching it lol. You act like in the past every single relationship was like that.

My family had very traditional relationships in the 50's. Some had great relationships because they chose wisely and they led a happy life simply being at home, taking care of the family, working on the farm. Some didn't choose so wisely and yeah, their's ended the way you stated. It was the same as it is now. You choose poorly and you end up with a bad partner. You choose wisely and you get a good partner.

And as for my daughter, she's told me a million times that the only reason she's going to college is to shut me up. She'd rather get married to her boyfriend, have 4 kids and be a stay at home mom. She hates working.

But she also has the opinion like you and many others here and that's fine, that's her life. It's not my view and she hates the way my relationship runs and thinks I'm stupid. She doesn't like that I have old fashioned values that are destructive. That's fine. I still love her. I don't run her life so it's her choice to decide. She also doesn't believe in God and refuses to go to church with me. She hates my views on that as well. Again, that's her choice. I still love her.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 7/3/2012 8:09:23 PM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/3/2012 8:12:55 PM   
HisPet21


Posts: 395
Status: offline
quote:

But she also has the opinion like you and many others here and that's fine, that's her life. It's not my view and she hates the way my relationship runs and thinks I'm stupid. She doesn't like that I have old fashioned values that are destructive. That's fine. I still love her. I don't run her life so it's her choice to decide. She also doesn't believe in God and refuses to go to church with me. She hates my views on that as well. Again, that's her choice. I still love her.


You are a good mommy. I think a great deal of parents have a hard time letting their children find their own way and develop their own values.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/3/2012 8:14:04 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		I never had a hard time. She's always been headstrong like her dad lol. I never really had much of a choice lol.


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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 11:24:36 AM   
AVegasMaster


Posts: 119
Joined: 8/2/2010
Status: offline 		I don't see the problem.

(in reply to KaleidoKenlyn)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 3:19:11 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		Only problem is the same old problem, feminists
having a whine. anyone who isn't on their side is
apparently a traitor or stupid or a man who's afraid
of women...

Western society has it pretty good ladies, how
about you all move to africa or something if you
want to fight for womens rights, your Flogging a
dead horse here... I'd even settle for you to stay
and stop harrassing people for their life choices, it's
Really none of your concern.

Because you believe in equality dosn't make you
a feminist, it just makes you a normal, reasonable
person.

-ARIES

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530 DAYS

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Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 3:46:41 PM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83


Because you believe in equality dosn't make you
a feminist, it just makes you a normal, reasonable
person.

-ARIES


It *does* make you a feminist if you believe in equality between men and women. (Well, that and the belief in freedom, on many accounts.) I think your idea of what feminism is has gone wrong there, Aries.

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Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 4:34:47 PM   
ARIES83


Posts: 3648
Status: offline 		I support fair treatment for both sexes in
Public and work settings.

If anyone saw how I make my partners behave
and how I treat them, and still thought I was a
Feminist... I'd say they were blind...

There must be a diffrence or else Im a Feminist
that makes his partner do the dishes every nite
or she sleeps on the floor...

-ARIES

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 7/4/2012 4:37:07 PM >

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530 DAYS

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Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 10:24:13 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer]
It *does* make you a feminist if you believe in equality between men and women. (Well, that and the belief in freedom, on many accounts.) I think your idea of what feminism is has gone wrong there, Aries.

I disagree. Perhaps at one time that was true. Now I read feminist articles all the time that are just blatantly antogonistic to my gender. So for me, I shed the label and retain my core beliefs about equal rights and opportunity. Heck, at the societal level it only makes sense to provide maximum opportunity for everyone to achieve as they are able.

_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

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Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/4/2012 11:54:47 PM   
WestBaySlave


Posts: 501
Joined: 9/24/2008
Status: offline 		I can rather relate to Jeff's situation here, and rather understand why many men, even where sympathetic to the aims of feminist movement, may have difficulty in knowing quite how to approach it.

I was raised by my mom and thought of myself as feminist, and I thought that meant believing men and women deserved equal rights and opportunities. As I grew up I found more and more this came under question as a definition, and that my self-identifying as feminist became suspect in many people's eyes.

It came to the point where no longer deny that I was running up against a recurrent thread of misandry in feminist circles. I started coming up against stuff like male feminists being seen as an unwelcome addition; somehow my very involvement being seen as appropriating "women's spaces" ( not my term ). Some even told me that by their very definitions, a man can not be feminist. Others put me in a role where, I could be feminist, as long as I kept quiet, always took last place, and deferred to any woman's opinion as mine was inherently inferior, and accepted my own as "tainted" due to my sex.

I remember the exact moment I decided I could no longer, in all accuracy, call myself a feminist: a male-to-female transgendered friend of mine, transitioned since the 1960s, and in feminist activist circles for more than four decades, was told at a lecture that she only thought something due to "residual male privilege".

After that, I more or less dropped out of feminist circles bar my voting habits and personal views on gender equality. I am for gender equality, and all that that means, and think of myself as having an egalitarian, humanist outlook. I can no longer call myself feminist, and for some, that Y-chromosome would prevent me from ever being one to begin with.

< Message edited by WestBaySlave -- 7/4/2012 11:55:42 PM >

(in reply to JeffBC)
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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 2:49:41 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
I disagree. Perhaps at one time that was true. Now I read feminist articles all the time that are just blatantly antogonistic to my gender. So for me, I shed the label and retain my core beliefs about equal rights and opportunity. Heck, at the societal level it only makes sense to provide maximum opportunity for everyone to achieve as they are able.


It could still be antagonistic to males and be in favour of freedom and equality (arguably, at least). However, if it contradicts those two values of equality and freedom, then it isn't feminism. Or, the person saying it is not speaking as a feminist as she/he is writing it, whether he/she knows it or not.

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 3:47:57 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline 		@Jeff and WestBay... I ran into that same thing, and several years ago I started a thread about it. Alarming, to say the least.

I understand times changing, but I cannot fathom fringe nutcases like Dworkin being quoted as voices of feminism. Perhaps it's resentment that the glass ceiling got polished, but not removed? The anti transfolk issues...I am shaking my head at those.

I am always going to define myself as a feminist, and no sympathy here for the very obvious male privilege (despise that word, but...) that still exists. I am a dinosaur as far as the movement goes, and perhaps that's a normal thing. I hear young POC comment that they would never have put up with the 'disrespect' their elder generations did. Which parts of history we'll be doomed to repeat, I prefer not to speculate.

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 6:41:22 AM   
ReMakeYou


Posts: 147
Joined: 1/20/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I understand times changing, but I cannot fathom fringe nutcases like Dworkin being quoted as voices of feminism. Perhaps it's resentment that the glass ceiling got polished, but not removed? The anti transfolk issues...I am shaking my head at those.


It's not the fact that Dworkins or Solanises exist. Whenever you have a pleasant-sounding movement, you'll have people doing their damnedest to warp it to their own ends. The problem is when they're embraced. Nutcases in other fields are usually either pushed to the fringes or outright expelled, not asked to testify before congress or referred to as the greatest minds of their generation.

And yes, you can say that feminists are pooh-poohing their embarrassments like anti-porn and anti-trans stances. (Stances many of them personally argued fervently for at the time, but never mind that.) Can you tell me with a straight face that future generations won't look at "fat people are the most oppressed people" the same way? How many times do you need to say "whoops, we can't be held accountable for the things we say"? How many times do you think a man could say that before losing all credibility?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It *does* make you a feminist if you believe in equality between men and women. (Well, that and the belief in freedom, on many accounts.) I think your idea of what feminism is has gone wrong there, Aries.


That's the difference between you and me. You define feminism based on its PR. I define feminism based on the behaviors of actual feminists.

(in reply to LadyHibiscus)
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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 9:01:43 AM   
GotSteel


Posts: 5871
Joined: 2/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
Because you believe in equality dosn't make you
a feminist, it just makes you a normal, reasonable
person.

-ARIES


Equality is the normal view (at least in your microcosm) because we've passed that tipping point. In the not to distant past male chauvinism was the norm.

(in reply to PeonForHer)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 9:15:02 AM   
PeonForHer


Posts: 19612
Joined: 9/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ReMakeYou
That's the difference between you and me. You define feminism based on its PR. I define feminism based on the behaviors of actual feminists.


No, I define 'feminism' on the basis of the accepted definition within the social sciences, in the way it's taught in schools and colleges. If the people you mention didn't act and behave in accordance with the principals of equality and freedom, then they weren't acting as feminists. Here is one definition that fits. Besides, feminists' 'PR', as you call it, hasn't been up to much - pretty evidently. If I'd based my definition on that, it'd probably be closer to your own.

In particular, I don't base my definition on that of the two hundred years of anti-feminist propaganda that was much in evidence at the time of the Suffragettes as it is now. In the USA, particularly, this has been as historically hostile as the propaganda which has been aimed at the term 'socialism'.

I don't think Dworkin et al have done unqualified good for the movement, certainly - but if there wasn't a Dworkin around, antifeminists would find another a replacement quickly enough. And then they'd kick off the propaganda machine that always conveys the same message: "This is a feminist; all people who call themselves feminists must, but definition, believe what she believes and will, eventually, act just like her."

If you don't think hostile propaganda has anything to do with this process, then consider other political and social movements. Is 'republicanism' to be defined by the way Nixon or McCarthy thought or acted? But if someone says, 'I'm a supporter of republicanism, however I'm not like McCarthy was', by and large he'll be accepted. Why the easy ride for one 'ism' and not the other? Might it not have something to do with the powers-that-be - particularly that in the mass media - choosing where to focus its hate-propaganda?

It's got to the stage, now, where the villifying propaganda against feminism has been so energetic, for so long, that for many, feminism actually *means* 'man-hating'. And people are so frightened of the term that they'll use words like 'humanist' to describe themselves instead - even though the main motivation of feminism was only ever to be a humanist cause applied to a particular case.

< Message edited by PeonForHer -- 7/5/2012 9:16:03 AM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/5/2012 9:32:37 AM   
LadyHibiscus


Posts: 27124
Joined: 8/15/2005
From: Island Of Misfit Toys
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ReMakeYou

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHibiscus

I understand times changing, but I cannot fathom fringe nutcases like Dworkin being quoted as voices of feminism. Perhaps it's resentment that the glass ceiling got polished, but not removed? The anti transfolk issues...I am shaking my head at those.


It's not the fact that Dworkins or Solanises exist. Whenever you have a pleasant-sounding movement, you'll have people doing their damnedest to warp it to their own ends. The problem is when they're embraced. Nutcases in other fields are usually either pushed to the fringes or outright expelled, not asked to testify before congress or referred to as the greatest minds of their generation.

And yes, you can say that feminists are pooh-poohing their embarrassments like anti-porn and anti-trans stances. (Stances many of them personally argued fervently for at the time, but never mind that.) Can you tell me with a straight face that future generations won't look at "fat people are the most oppressed people" the same way? How many times do you need to say "whoops, we can't be held accountable for the things we say"? How many times do you think a man could say that before losing all credibility?

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

It *does* make you a feminist if you believe in equality between men and women. (Well, that and the belief in freedom, on many accounts.) I think your idea of what feminism is has gone wrong there, Aries.


That's the difference between you and me. You define feminism based on its PR. I define feminism based on the behaviors of actual feminists.


The younger set of transfolk has definitely pointed fingers at my generation for not being LGBT advocates at the time, and of course for not also allying with women of colour. To which my only answer is "we fought our own fight, and didn't have the energy for other people's" The Detroit riots were 1967, Stonewalll 1968. Neither event really touched the white middle class existence of the bulk of the feminist movement.

I am not going to apologize because we didn't fix every damn thing, and only managed baby steps for ourselves.

Are future generations going to see Rush Limbaugh as the voice of the Republican party? Possibly, since the extremes are what get remembered.

The current phrase seems to be "but it doesn't affect ME". I hear that all the time, whether it's to do with welfare rulings, climate change, foreign politics, or whether you really want to invite that rapist to your party. Many many things that go on in the world do not affect me directly, but they do affect me because I am a member of a greater society.

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