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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/7/2012 12:56:01 PM

cloudboy

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I've seen how its hard for women to keep up with men. My wife just passed the bar exam and is slated for a job promotion. Then she got pregnant. This really slowed her down at work. Next, her promotion kicks in at about the same time the baby will be born. When the baby comes, she will take maternity leave.

As just a factual observation, she cannot be as productive as a male worker, and the reasons are entirely biological. This time period has been very eye-opening to me.

So, aside from "attitudinal advantages" (a bias towards male workers), men have biological advantages as well (we don't get pregnant, have morning sickness, and go through the all the changes of motherhood.)

Part of feminism, as I see it, is not overly-penalizing women in the workplace for the role they play as mothers. Motherhood is simply much more burdensome on women than fatherhood is on men. Female roles are at odds with corporate and organization productivity goals. I think its important that we understand women cannot be men, b/c in many instances its not a fair fight.

Not sure if any of you follow Mad Men, but Peggy ascends in the Madison Avenue advertising industry precisely because she lost her child and chose not to get married. If she was going to compete with men, she needed to be on more equal footing with them to succeed.

I don't necessarily think that women can have it all (a power career, close a family, satisfying motherhood, good relations with her children, etc.) but I don't think we want a society that penalizes women for their important role of motherhood.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 7/7/2012 1:03:14 PM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/8/2012 11:06:01 AM

Salinedion

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Without feminism, women would be live stock -and not in that good, hot way.

'Couldn't even think about going around that 'can I be spanked and still belong to NOW?'-bush one more time. If Zooey Dashanel wanted to work through such angst with me, I'd have to give it a pass. 'Couldn't stay awake for it.

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/8/2012 10:24:29 PM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: atameamo

I totaly agree with Aries83. The feminists of this world have forced me to have to go to work instead of taking care of my man and my familly. I have no me time and once I`ve paid for chid care, ferried kids to and fro to get them there, bought quick to prepare foodstuffs etc, I`m no better off financially than should I stay at home. Who missed out? We all did. Who gained anything? No-one but the taxman. I`d love to have lived the 1950`s when women were coiffed and polished, stayed home and cooked good meals and took care of their own kids education. A smack on the arse is a compliment for gods sake.

Such are very dangerous thinking.
Feminism gave us women a choice. Whether we want to live like the 1950's or as an independent woman. In the 1950's, they have no choice. That picture you draw is fine and dandy IF all men were naturally born responsible loving person towards you and possibly children as well. But in reality, women and children get abandoned, cast aside for younger women, left helpless and unable to defend themselves.
Feminism helps teach women to survive in case their men abandons them.
I think it's a necessity. A man is only a fail-able human, and he could let you down.

There are still countries today, like the Muslim ones where you can pursue this 1950's lifestyle, where women are forbid to work. Looking at their lives, whether it will be a good one or not, is 100% dependent on the man. A woman has no control on her destiny. Is that the world you really want back?

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/8/2012 10:26:58 PM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/8/2012 10:41:40 PM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Feminism helps teach women to survive in case their men abandons them.

I can't believe my eyes. Please tell me you just didn't just say that.

Pam

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/8/2012 10:57:08 PM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Feminism helps teach women to survive in case their men abandons them.

I can't believe my eyes. Please tell me you just didn't just say that.
Pam

And I believe in it.
Back in the old days where women were deprived of education and work, now tell me how will she survive without a man?
All Feminism did was give a woman a choice to be able to survive without a man.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/8/2012 10:58:31 PM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/8/2012 11:02:10 PM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
All Feminism did was give a woman a choice to be able to survive without a man.

What I mean is that defining women by their relationship to men does NOT seem feminist to me.

Pam

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/9/2012 12:00:55 AM

Greta75

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
All Feminism did was give a woman a choice to be able to survive without a man.

What I mean is that defining women by their relationship to men does NOT seem feminist to me.

Pam

Perhaps I just did not phrase it correctly.
The key point is, feminism gave women a choice to be able to survive without a man. In the past, that was never an option for them. For that, I am forever grateful to the women who have died or been persecuted fighting for this cause to make this happen for us.

< Message edited by Greta75 -- 7/9/2012 12:01:32 AM >

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RE: Feminism and Submission - 7/9/2012 1:26:44 PM

JeffBC

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greta75
Feminism gave us women a choice. Whether we want to live like the 1950's or as an independent woman. In the 1950's, they have no choice. That picture you draw is fine and dandy IF all men were naturally born responsible loving person towards you and possibly children as well. But in reality, women and children get abandoned, cast aside for younger women, left helpless and unable to defend themselves.

*nods* I've often said that Carol and I might fit well into the 1950's, but that's only because she and I happen to naturally fit the established societal roles of the time. But what about all the women who don't want to be property and all the men who aren't competent to own property? The problem with rigid and restrictive societal roles is that fit so few people well and everyone else suffers.

In the biggest picture, feminism freed women from being property. At least now women get to argue on more or less even footing as men. I, for one, am devoutly grateful to feminism. I find the idea of enforced slavery repugnant which is pretty much how I see US culture prior to the 70's & 80's.

How I see feminism and submission (the old-school, not stupid kind of feminism) is just like my example of the 50's in reverse. OK, so women got all emancipated and whatnot and it turns out some of them didn't want or need that. No biggie though... that's the whole gig with freedom. Nobody else can enslave you but you may enslave yourself if you choose.

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