RE: two worlds of trust (Full Version)

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feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 9:41:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness

Reading this long thread i am not in two worlds of trust, but i found myself in two camps at the same time.

I lived my life and plan to do it further on by my sentence: Secrets are binding energy. So i am not cheating and i really dislike to be betrayed. This covers more then sex and/or Sm. I do not live my life in compartments and i am sure, as i saw the results, that living a fractured life is in the end a wasted life.

So much about that.

On the other hand i have a really deep contempt for people who are belong to the self proclaimed high horses moral riders. And there are such a lot in this thread that i am feeling sick. There is a song by Depeche Mode: Try walking in my shoes.

It is so easy to be hateful and mean, you (generally you the moralistis) do not understand that in condemming another person the way you do it here, you bring yourself something bad in the world and not by any stretch of the imagination help or cure a bad situation as it is described in the opening post.

From the core of my heart i wish all of you harmony.



You are, by your own standards, making judgments about people posting here.  Do you know how many of these folks, other than the ones that have admitted it, have walked in the same shoes?  How many have cheated or been cheated upon?  How many have led a life in which every day is a lie?  How many speak with personal experience on this topic?

I've worn these shoes and I probably wore them for much longer than anyone else that has posted. I had an affair that lasted for eight years.  The reasons for it are not important.  The fact is that I did it and I lied every day of those eight years.  My now ex-husband never found out and the affair was not the direct reason behind the divorce.  But it's something that I have to carry for the rest of my life, as does my ex-lover.  It was wrong.  I'm not going to attempt to justify it.  It doesn't make me less guilty to have ended either relationship.  Lying and cheating can never be justified, I don't care how you attempt to slice it.  Posting that one is still a trustworthy person while in the midst of her lies and cheating is no justification, and doesn't make her trusthworthy.

I share the fact that I had this affair with potential partners, when it becomes appropriate to do so.  Being that I have lied and cheated, it is incumbent upon me to work harder to make sure that I am honest and up front and that I can be trusted.  I've yet to have a problem earning someone's trust because of it, but that day is likely to come.  When and if it does, it will be my cross to bear.




Proprietrix -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 12:47:00 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ZenDragoness
On the other hand i have a really deep contempt for people who are belong to the self proclaimed high horses moral riders. And there are such a lot in this thread that i am feeling sick. There is a song by Depeche Mode: Try walking in my shoes.


Umm, nope. I won't "walk in those shoes." I have something that prevents me from walking in those shoes. It's called integrity and honesty. It's what gives me the right to sit proudly on my high horse.
I also refuse to walk in the shoes of pedophiles, and will gladly judge them from my high horse. I won't walk in the shoes of murderers either. I also won't walk in the shoes of rapists, Klan members, or the playground bully. I won't walk in the shoes of child abusers. I won't walk in the shoes of cheating spouses.
Those are shoes that I am perfectly content not walking in.
Anyone who tells me I need to walk in those shoes, is telling me I need to let go of my morals.
I'll take my high horse over your immoral shoes any day.
Thanks anyway.



tade -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 3:12:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

quote:

ORIGINAL: tade

Wow... and I thought I liked to stir hornets nests... This thread has been great fun to read. Seems like the "cheaters" are on one side, the ones who have been cheated on are on the other, and are quite vocal. IMHO you do what gets you through. Some people don't feel as restrained by those vows as others. Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? Not my wife, not my sub, so none of my buisness what they do.

Now for me personaly, I would have a more of a problem with my wife lying to me and running around behind my back then I would the fact that she liked kinky sex and fucked someone else on occasion. But then again we have an openess and honesty that few couples ever reach in their own lives, so I don't have to worry about that. She wants some other guy, Hell we'll hunt him down together.

Nupe wrong.*dings buzzer rather than bell*
As julia said - you will find it is the opposite.  But then you would have to read the post to understand that and it is qute apparent that the majority of people DIDN'T and instead, took the moral highground, went offtopic(liarliar-pantsonfire) and worshipped the great God of Witch Hunts.
 
*extinguishes all torches and snaps stakes*
(coz like, I am a goddess, I got that power)
 
Peace and Rapture


Just wondering where we disagree on the subject. Other than the ones who were more vocal part. The ones I noticed more were the ones that leaned toward the "You're a bitch for ruining your marriage!" posts. If there were more "I was a cheater and I Think both of us were wrong" posts they didn't stand out to me. I am still allowed to have my own opinions without having you tell me I we am wrong and I don't read right? Hoping so because looking back I have seen a few VERY vocal posts by the same people, a few I agree with so and so posts and a BUNCH of "You are wrong and here is how I know. You should listen to me because I don't care whether you agree or otherwise. Those are my powers, so sayeth the psalms."
Whether you are right or wrong, whether I agree or not I love your passive agressive style and wouldn't have you any other way. (Disagree with that.. Go on..lol)

Other than that I really don't see where your criticism of my post has merit. But I am always interested in what people have to say. Must have been that pesky "None of my buisness what they do" part. That one ALWAYS gets me into trouble. Sorry for the off topic disscusion but after this many pages, how much can still be said about the original topic that has not been said and repeated before.



juliaoceania -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 3:58:51 PM)

Tade,

If a person is doing something they know deep down is wrong they are not going to appreciate anyone telling them that they think it is wrong too. It is called being hypersensitive because they are on the defensive. I cannot help but think that because when someone disagrees with my lifestyle choices and I feel they are healthy and good I really do not care what they say about it,

For example if a Fundamentalist Christian came up and told me I was going to helll because I engage in BDSM I would laugh at them.. I have nothing to defend against. I really do not care what others think. There are a couple of people posting on CM that are openly adultrous, they do not ask approval or seek to change minds about their situation. I respect that to be honest...  I am not trying to tell them they are wrong and they seek no validation from me.... and why should they? They shouldn't. If they are ok with what they are doing then it should not matter what I think being I am a total stranger to them.

I have had some judge me for calling the dom in my life "Daddy"... and some of them post here. Do I care what they think? NO. I guess because I do not feel there is something immoral about it, although they think there is.

My point is that do not feel bad because someone is defensive. It isnt what you said that made them that way, its how they read your comment is all.



puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:02:15 PM)

Hello sskitten,

I haven't read any of the replies to your post because I am not replying to them, but to you.  Before you get all bent about what I am going to say, let me just remind you that you brought this up on the forum... so here goes:

You are not growing very much as a person if you can not stop justifying a conscious and ongoing decision to hurt another person, to lie to another person and to possibly bring harm to someone you have made a life contract with, let alone any kids you might have.

I understand that you need to find some way in your own head to make it seem okay to do what ever you need to do to get your rocks off, but it's not.  Not when you are lying to someone you are married to.  They have every right to know and to make a choice about how your relationship is going.. and you gave them that right when you married them.

The best case (for you, anyway) scenario to be played out here, is that you will continue on living a lie and forcing your family, unknowingly into that lie with you.  It rarely comes to pass however, that somewhere, some how, someone doesn't find out. 

Let me tell you about a worst case scenario that I was impacted by, through a very dear friend in college.

Eric was an incredibly talented, incredibly bright young man.  He had the world at his feet, and a very promising career on the horizon.  He was very close to his parents and sister and was very eager to be singing at his sisters wedding the following summer.

At some point, those of us who knew and cared about Eric started seeing strange behavior.  His teachers started seeing this gifted student flounder in all his classes.  His girlfriend was pushed aside for no understandable reason.

Eric felt he could talk to me, maybe because having had so much personal tragedy in my life at such a young age, compassion was something that came easily to me.  He told me what was breaking him down. 

His father, apparently had been having an affair with a woman for a number of years, and no one in his family had known, until his mother was tested positive for HIV.  It turns out, the woman, who as cheating on her husband, had 'somehow' contracted the disease, and passed it on to his father, who passed it on to his mother, who was now in the very final stages of it's consuming her life.  It had advanced spectacularly rapidly in her, partly because she could never have thought that she would be a possible victim of this disease.

His mother died before his sisters wedding.  His father was too ill to attend, and Eric... was long gone.  I don't know how that poor girls 'big day' went, but I imagine it was masked with tragedy. 

The cost of that indiscretion was not just the father and mothers... that whole family is a fall out zone now, well, what's left of them.  Eric dropped out of college and still can not deal well with any idea of a relationship or commitment.  His sister lost her parents, her brother as she knew him and the most important day of her life, as well as, I would imagine, much hopefulness about a loving and lasting relationship, though I think she was the one who was able to get the most help through therapy.

Whether you contract aids or herpes or any other communicable disease is irrelevant.  That is just the worst case scenario.

What you are doing is wrong, and you know it.  Why do you come here and look to find support for something you have said you know is wrong?  How do you think you will garner any sympathy from people who may have known or been touched by the effects of someone who lies and cheats a partner and her children? 

You are in a relationship with your husband.  Either get the balls to deal with the consequences of your new found needs and evolution, or deal with the fact that no one needs to justify your cheating  and destructive behaviors just because it suits your needs.

You are not growing the right way as an adult if you need to justify that growth by plunging yourself and those who love you and whom you committed yourself and your choices to (yes, you committed those things to your husband when you married) into a life of lies, and very possible emotional and physical harm.

Your 'kink' has nothing to do with this issue.  Your being deceitful, dishonest and irresponsible are the issues.  I really have no idea what you were seeking in your post.



tade -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:06:54 PM)

Well said and point taken.



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:13:04 PM)

Geez... first I am a goddess - now I am passive - aggressive ! (Although it might help of you look up what that actually is before you start diagnosing people you haven't even met, Dr Spock [;)])  But I do appriciate the compliment.[:)]
 
I wasn't disagreeing with the entire post - I simply agreed with julia
(which is what I wrote if You care to read what I wrote and what she wrote - doesn't anyone read properly through things these days?)
 
Let me spell it out slowly.
You claimed(albeit 'seems'):
quote:

"cheaters" are on one side, the ones who have been cheated on are on the other, and are quite vocal

Well, that was wrong.  And I was just letting you know that.  So - if by the majority vote, a liar is a liar then one would come to the concluesion that wrong is wrong.  How do I know it was wrong?
Me.
Neither cheated on - nor cheater.  So...
*presses buzzer again - not bell*
 
Yes, I know we agreed other than that.  I just assumed higher intelligence of people when I mentioned julias post.  Maybe I shouldn't be so fast the 'judge'.
Geez, whatever anyone does, ya can't win.
In the space of a week I have been too PC, a goddess, branded a cheat, passive/aggressive, too vocal, too unvocal, a word nazi, a girl, a 'lifestyler' and danced with Level (swoons) - can't all be bad coming back to the forums after all....[;)]
 
Peace and Passive-Aggressive Lurve
[sm=kiss.gif]



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:21:00 PM)

quote:

Your 'kink' has nothing to do with this issue.  Your being deceitful, dishonest and irresponsible are the issues.  I really have no idea what you were seeking in your post.
*points at link at first page*  It was for the support group - and to let people out there know that there were others 'out there' and they were not alone.
Not for guilt trips, scare stories and judgements.
 
Peace and Rapture



LadiesBladewing -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:34:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sskitten

I live in two different worlds of trust because I have been evolving as a person but my marriage cannot accommodate the person I've become, and so I feel I must pretend to be the person I was, the person who lived for decades with a vanilla life alongside a raging D/s inner fantasy life.  Even if I hadn't chosen to cheat, I would still be living a lie, pretending to be content and vanilla.  The truth would destroy my marriage, whether the truth of my cheating or the truth of the depth of my longings.  And while my choices are hurting my husband though he is unaware, the truth would hurt him more.  I am lying to protect him from the harsh pain of the truth that he cannot meet his wife's needs.


I have no idea how I've missed this thread, but I did -- having found it now, I have to say that you are obviously very skilled in explainations, but explainations do not make what you are doing any more appropriate. It may make you feel better to try to explain it, but it is certainly not practicing brutal honesty.

My question for you is, if your marriage is such a disappointment, why don't you TRULY be honest and save both yourself and your husband the pain, and file for a divorce? Claiming to be perfectly transparent in your D/s relationship while lying in another part of your life is not living in two worlds of trust -- it is deceiving someone whom you made a committment to to get what you want somewhere else. You need to be honest with -yourself-. You speak, later in your post, about wanting to know why you should jeopardize your marriage to have your D/s -- and something to the effect of why would you be doing that if it wasn't serving a need. Well, need or not, your marriage isn't healthy in the first place. You mention that your husband isn't willing to seek out constructive solutions to your problems. It doesn't sound to me like -this- is a constructive solution to your problems, either.

Recognizing that we have particular beliefs and feelings and desires is fine, but part of the problem with our entire society is that nobody wants to wait until obtaining what he or she wants can be done without causing problems. We do it with our credit, and we do it with our relationships. If you believe you're a submissive, that's great. If you can't do anything about it right now because you're in a committed relationship that you agreed to and are unwilling to take the difficult steps of ending -before- you cheat on your promised mate, that's a personal problem. The right way to handle this is to get off your butt, tell your husband that the marriage is over, pay for the divorce, deal with the consequences and THEN go find yourself a Master, with whom you can be completely honest. OR you can stay in your marriage and acknowledge that you're a submissive, but that you're not going to do anything about it because you value your marriage enough not to want to. The wishy-washy middle road you've chosen is unfair to you, your husband -and- your master, and trying to convince yourself that it is not is an artful attempt at self-delusion.

Da'Avatar ZWD

www.klashaan.org



puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:43:36 PM)

... a support group for others who are trying to justify victimizing their spouses has nothing to do with the statement you quoted me on.



tade -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:49:44 PM)

Well indeed thank you for showing me my transgressions. I will sleep better tonight knowing you are there to catch us when we stumble and show us the true one way..



NINASHARP -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 5:42:10 PM)

puella,

I was touched by what you shared about your friend and could almost feel your own pain while reading your post. I know that wasn't easy for you to write, but I think you meant well in your intentions by sharing your story about your friend. If not just for the benefit of the OP, maybe for anyone who is in a similar situation.

Bless you.

Nina



NINASHARP -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 5:55:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Geez... first I am a goddess - now I am passive - aggressive ! (Although it might help of you look up what that actually is before you start diagnosing people you haven't even met, Dr Spock [;)])  But I do appriciate the compliment.[:)]
 
I wasn't disagreeing with the entire post - I simply agreed with julia
(which is what I wrote if You care to read what I wrote and what she wrote - doesn't anyone read properly through things these days?)
 
Let me spell it out slowly.
You claimed(albeit 'seems'):
quote:

"cheaters" are on one side, the ones who have been cheated on are on the other, and are quite vocal

Well, that was wrong.  And I was just letting you know that.  So - if by the majority vote, a liar is a liar then one would come to the concluesion that wrong is wrong.  How do I know it was wrong?
Me.
Neither cheated on - nor cheater.  So...
*presses buzzer again - not bell*
 
Yes, I know we agreed other than that.  I just assumed higher intelligence of people when I mentioned julias post.  Maybe I shouldn't be so fast the 'judge'.
Geez, whatever anyone does, ya can't win.
In the space of a week I have been too PC, a goddess, branded a cheat, passive/aggressive, too vocal, too unvocal, a word nazi, a girl, a 'lifestyler' and danced with Level (swoons) - can't all be bad coming back to the forums after all....[;)]
 
Peace and Passive-Aggressive Lurve
[sm=kiss.gif]



LOL, What is that title under your nic, Dark?  That is too funny. When I noticed this today I just had to laugh at your reponses and the "irony" of it all. You seem rather proud of it too.  Ya wouldn't be bragging about your experiences here now would ya, Dark?  [sm=lol.gif] 



cloudboy -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 9:30:11 PM)


Well you know me, I won't judge what you do or tell you what you should do. It has been my experience on these forums that the unmarried and divorced have the strongest platitudes about what marriage is and what married folks should do. Listening to them is like listening to corporate radio.

To me, the holy grail of relationships is adventurous, sustainable intimacy. Lifelong marriage and strict expectations of monogamy make this grail a rather challenging proposition. You won't be the last person to live a double life. It makes me think a little bit about SIX FEET UNDER in the FIRST SEASON when Nate discovers his father's SECRET APARTMENT.

We all have secrets. Absent malicious intent, I stand behind the right of everyone to keep and maintain their own secrets and zones of privacy. It is precisely in such zones that we are most free to be ourselves. I don't agree with others who would readily try to convince you that you can be your own free self in the public realm. Ideally, this would be true, but in fact, such in not always the case.



puella -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 9:34:05 PM)

I have no problem with open marriages cloudboy... what ever works for both partners of a couple is cool.   But when one partnerwants something outside of your marriage, and then does not have the balls to discuss it with the person you willingly entered into a committed lifestyle with, it is wrong, period.  You are taking away their choice and their right and ability to make it.



ZenDragoness -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 9:40:16 PM)

Feastie, you and Propietrix also missed my point completely.

I try again, but i doubt we will find common ground.

The situation as described in the opening post is a difficult situation. As it is said in a Talmund commentary about malicious gossip (that  (the malicious gossip) is bad for 3 persons, the one who made the comment, the one who did not hinder the first and the person it is concerning) i would assume (notice assume because i am not befriended with one of this three persons and even if, i have found myself in situations where 2 friends once lovers stood against each other suddenly and i heard both sides and there was not one guilty party) it is a bad situation for three people the opening poster, her dom and her husband(and i tend to think like some here, if i were him, i would wish, that someone who proclaimed to love and respect me, do not lie to me), involved.

So feastie and Propietrix, we are not that far away from each other in first personal judgement.

What i was writing about and what i find a very bad and non constructive behaviour is the way some use that situation to act different things out. Hate, Comtempt, and so on and this only to feel as a better person. Here in Europe we have not the death penalty and we have not such a lot of christian fundamentalists, so maybe this way of Moral Majority Talk is not as widespread as in the U S A. Before somebody else understand me wrong, i am sure (ok, i Hope so!) that not all of the Moralistis want to send this opening poster and her dom on death row or burn them (good, old christian method) but some of the post smell for me a tad of that,,,,way.

And as i was raised as in a protestant household (family member minister) i know a lot about christianity, but i know for sure when people leave this belief system. Hating for the fun off it, comdemming for personal gain is in no religion that i know off, ok. And when you leave the religious systems than you come to philosophies. Two weeks before there was a demonstration here in Berlin, concerning a big problem (we have now in Germany around 6 million people on the dole, and there is no work and they are cutting the social benefits, although we still belong to the richest countries in the world), there were a lot of very old and handicapped people there and although there were some left wing radicals, there was no violence out of the demonstration, But, (and they are building a case at the state attorney against him) the Einsatzleiter (the leading police men) decided to send his troups into the demonstration, hurting them and taking people out and bring them into jail. We (me and friends) noticed this situation and together with other people moved between the police and the people who were attacked by them. In good, old peace movement way we stood our ground and shouted: Leave the demonstration alone,,,luckily the tide changed and a lot of people stopped to be scared and began to shout the same. This could have had escalated in a very bad way.

So, why am I choose such a long winded example? I choose it, to make my point. Take a stand if you must, but do not bring more hate in the world, that is always and i say again from the core of my buddist heart the wrong way.

Peace and Harmony

And this is not directed at Propietrix (for me also things are black and white in my personal moral system and i also choose to associate (not always possible, sometimes there are surprises) only with people who share my belief of living your life open and honest. And it is not directed at feastie, because doing something wrong (like cheating) and understanding that it was wrong and sharing it on a public board, is not what i meant. I like to read both of your posts, by the way.

I am not sure, that i could made myself clear here, maybe LadyZW can help me out:-).



marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 10:39:22 PM)

kitten:

I was having mail problems last week, and think that maybe its still an issue.  I wrote you and saw you on the site, but both mails are showing unread.  Please check you box. 



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 2:21:32 AM)

You said that you had no idea what kitten was seeking from her post.  I responded it is about the group she posted and to let others know there are those in the same position - seems pretty straight forward to me.
And if you really think it is about simply cheating and feeling 'supported' about it - then you really have no idea what any support group is for and would obviously wish to condemn efforts rather than take the time to find out.  That is what this entire thread has been about.  Those willing to condemn others and those who are able to look past individual morality and just leave people be.  And yes, before its said - I am also condemning those that condemn - yawn - I am not perfect (yet) - but thats the beauty of FoS.
Swings and roundabouts baby - swings and roundabouts...
 
Peace and Rapture



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 2:24:42 AM)

quote:

LOL, What is that title under your nic, Dark?  That is too funny. When I noticed this today I just had to laugh at your reponses and the "irony" of it all. You seem rather proud of it too.  Ya wouldn't be bragging about your experiences here now would ya, Dark?  [sm=lol.gif] 

Moi?  Brag?  Nawwww... I don't need to brag -
my reputation preceeds me....[;)]
 
Peace and Rapture



darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/12/2006 2:30:51 AM)

Ya quite welcome... glad to have been of assistance.
[:D]
 
Peace and Rapture



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