RE: two worlds of trust

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marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 4:11:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks Yes MarieToo, this woman that I knew in real life lived exactly what I said. There were no other factors. She was a wonderful and loving mother and this devastated her. What happened in their case had the whole bdsm group in that area running scared. Her husband was very vindictive and called witnesses as to her involvement. What I never could figure out was how he managed it. For all I ever saw he was just as into as she was. His claims were that her "perverted" interests ruined their marriage and that she was an unfit mother. I also know another sub who lost total custody for over a year, visitation only when allowed by her husband and for only a partial day. No overnights with them, and if I remember right a 5 hour limit on her time alone with them. The thing we tend to forget is that images of bondage, floggings, pain, drum up thoughts about serial killers and murder in many vanilla's minds. They can't imagine how a stable well adjusted person could involve themselves with such things. I remain thankful that my interest in this came after my divorce not before. During the separation period I found out he was capable of things that 20 years of married life had not shown me he was capable of doing. I found the old saying about not truly knowing someone until you were married wasn't true. You really know someone when you divorce them. I agree completely with your last sentence. My god, that is SO true. Well, I stand corrected then if you all have heard of this. In Jersey its unheard of to lose custody, alimony or anything in a divorce because of kink or adultery. Not these days. Years ago it mattered. Now they just stamp it as a duel fault and send you on your way. I even researched it online when I was going through it, because I didnt trust my attorney. All the literature still says that is mostly doesnt affect anything, but maybe in rare cases it does. Hopefully each party is reasonable and you can save some $$ with the attorney. only in 1% of all cases in my county does a judge even decide it. That is in a rare case when the couple cant come to an agreement. All the back and forth proposals etc etc...what a hassle. I am so glad that era of my life is behind me. I would still encourage this lady to move forward with a divorce. Maybe custody isnt even an issue for her. Most men dont want custody anyway. Though, at this point, she may be better off just telling him she wants out because she's not happy. This way, he has nothing to go digging for to use against her

tade -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 4:35:39 PM)
Wow... and I thought I liked to stir hornets nests... This thread has been great fun to read. Seems like the "cheaters" are on one side, the ones who have been cheated on are on the other, and are quite vocal. IMHO you do what gets you through. Some people don't feel as restrained by those vows as others. Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? Not my wife, not my sub, so none of my buisness what they do. Now for me personaly, I would have a more of a problem with my wife lying to me and running around behind my back then I would the fact that she liked kinky sex and fucked someone else on occasion. But then again we have an openess and honesty that few couples ever reach in their own lives, so I don't have to worry about that. She wants some other guy, Hell we'll hunt him down together.

juliaoceania -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 4:41:04 PM)
Actually you need to re-read the thread... those hardest on her are the ones that have lied to their spouses, and I may have said I do not agree with her... but at the same time I am not against her either. People are human, they make mistakes, no one is perfect... I just havent made the same mistake as her... and I cant imagine myself doing so....But that does not make me a better person. I stated my opinion because the thread was started to elicit one.

sharainks -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 5:15:08 PM)
New Jersey is light years ahead of Kansas with their laws. Kansas is the state of Fred Phelps (the God hates fags guy) who is also now protesting at the funerals of those servicement killed in Iraq. Its one of the first if not the first to have a sexual predator committment program that can civilly committ someone even after their prison sentence is over, possibly for the rest of their life. We are among the first with new laws set to take effect to put a 1st time sex offender in prison for a minimum of 25 years. We have a state attorney general who tried to seize the medical records of underage girls who had gotten abortions hoping to prosecute the boy or man who got them pregnant (that failed) thankfully. It would have undermined the confidentiality of medical records and set a dangerous precedent.

Sinergy -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 6:02:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks The OP doesn't seem to realize that there are still conservative judges who would grant a non cheating spouse custody of the children over granting it to the cheater. If hubby finds out and gets vindictive you could wind up without the very thing that you say keeps you in the marriage. Eventually those who cheat get found out. Are you willing to deal with the repercussions when it happens? I wake up every morning giving thanks that, despite those cretins electing The Governator to run the joint (hey, he is doing better than Reagan did) I live in a 100% No Fault Divorce state. I have lived through a relationship with a spouse who was unfaithful. I finally left because she was verbally abusive to me and I was unwilling to teach my children that that was the proper way to treat their partner. I told them so. As far as judging people is concerned. I dont know their life. I dont know their experience. I dont know their set of values. I have my own. These work for me, and I truly believe people have to be true to themselves. I wish you well, Sinergy

crouchingtigress -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 6:07:53 PM)
The jist of your post is Look at me, I can lie and still be totally honest! Do you not see how silly you sound?

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 7:20:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tade Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? I agree with this completely. Anyone who is divorced has broken their vows. "For better or worse". I dont agree that people should stay married to someone who habitually cheats, is a drunk, an abuser, liar, or what have you...But lets call a spade a spade. Anyone who divorced their spouse did not live up to the "for better or worse" crapola. People are not perfect, people do change, people do grow, and sometimes....its really no one's fault, but rather something that was meant to be, and something that was also meant to end. The bitterness is all for naught.

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 7:32:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks New Jersey is light years ahead of Kansas with their laws. Kansas is the state of Fred Phelps (the God hates fags guy) who is also now protesting at the funerals of those servicement killed in Iraq. Its one of the first if not the first to have a sexual predator committment program that can civilly committ someone even after their prison sentence is over, possibly for the rest of their life. We are among the first with new laws set to take effect to put a 1st time sex offender in prison for a minimum of 25 years. We have a state attorney general who tried to seize the medical records of underage girls who had gotten abortions hoping to prosecute the boy or man who got them pregnant (that failed) thankfully. It would have undermined the confidentiality of medical records and set a dangerous precedent. Now THIS is some scarey shit!

awhisper -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 7:45:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: sharainks New Jersey is light years ahead of Kansas with their laws. Kansas is the state of Fred Phelps (the God hates fags guy) who is also now protesting at the funerals of those servicement killed in Iraq. Its one of the first if not the first to have a sexual predator committment program that can civilly committ someone even after their prison sentence is over, possibly for the rest of their life. We are among the first with new laws set to take effect to put a 1st time sex offender in prison for a minimum of 25 years. We have a state attorney general who tried to seize the medical records of underage girls who had gotten abortions hoping to prosecute the boy or man who got them pregnant (that failed) thankfully. It would have undermined the confidentiality of medical records and set a dangerous precedent. Now THIS is some scarey shit! Yes, i live in Kansas and i am appalled at what Fred Phelps does; Is allowed to do. This kind of fanaticism is dangerous for everyone.

feastie -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 8:52:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: tade Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? I agree with this completely. Anyone who is divorced has broken their vows. "For better or worse". I dont agree that people should stay married to someone who habitually cheats, is a drunk, an abuser, liar, or what have you...But lets call a spade a spade. Anyone who divorced their spouse did not live up to the "for better or worse" crapola. People are not perfect, people do change, people do grow, and sometimes....its really no one's fault, but rather something that was meant to be, and something that was also meant to end. The bitterness is all for naught. That's true, but at least they were honest enough to say hey, this isn't working for me...

bignipples2share -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/10/2006 9:40:37 PM)
_ Quick reply_ Sorry, but I can't even get past the name of this thread being what it's contents are. Two worlds of trust? If one world is the cheated on husband, who is being lied to and the other world is the person cheating on the husband and her accomplice in the lie, I just don't see where these two worlds are when it comes to any sort of trust. I have to agree with Dustin. If your partner is fine with you flirting, then by all means, flirt. If it would hurt your partner to be cybering with another, then it's wrong. If you feel you can't hold the same conversation with the person your typing to, while your partner is looking over your shoulder, then why even start it? I see no reason to place yourself in a situation where you might even be tempted. Why not put the same energy that you are giving to some other relationship, back into the one you origionally started with. If after you've put everything you've got into it and it's just not gonna work, then time to move on, but at least let your partner know first. Someone mentioned that everyone lies. Yeah, you're right, everyone does. I think if my partner said, 'Oh don't worry about it, you look fine, you can go out and nobody will think anything of it.' after my visiting 5 year old nephew decided to shear my locks off while I was sleeping, is very different than one of. 'Hey, I have a sick friend I need to tend to.' and then running into someone elses bed. Yes, they're both about sleeping, they're both lies, both are meant to make you feel fine, but I do see a big difference. ~Big _________________________ ahhhh I see sounds

darkinshadows -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 3:26:12 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tade Wow... and I thought I liked to stir hornets nests... This thread has been great fun to read. Seems like the "cheaters" are on one side, the ones who have been cheated on are on the other, and are quite vocal. IMHO you do what gets you through. Some people don't feel as restrained by those vows as others. Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? Not my wife, not my sub, so none of my buisness what they do. Now for me personaly, I would have a more of a problem with my wife lying to me and running around behind my back then I would the fact that she liked kinky sex and fucked someone else on occasion. But then again we have an openess and honesty that few couples ever reach in their own lives, so I don't have to worry about that. She wants some other guy, Hell we'll hunt him down together. Nupe wrong.dings buzzer rather than bell As julia said - you will find it is the opposite. But then you would have to read the post to understand that and it is qute apparent that the majority of people DIDN'T and instead, took the moral highground, went offtopic(liarliar-pantsonfire) and worshipped the great God of Witch Hunts. extinguishes all torches and snaps stakes (coz like, I am a goddess, I got that power) Peace and Rapture

twicehappy -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:03:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tade Now for me personaly, I would have a more of a problem with my wife lying to me and running around behind my back then I would the fact that she liked kinky sex and fucked someone else on occasion. But then again we have an openess and honesty that few couples ever reach in their own lives, so I don't have to worry about that. She wants some other guy, Hell we'll hunt him down together. KUDOS to you tade!!!!! I was collared to the same man for 18 years and from the start we both agreed we hated lying more than anything. Back then (showing my years here) sex was like drugs, you did it with your friends. We were poly, meaning we had more than one permanent partner who we loved as a spouse, and we were occasionally open to play, meaning if either of us saw somebody we wanted to have the first person we told was each other. I never had an issue with him putting off with a hardbelly; i knew where he was and who he was with. My only issue would have been being lied to. So my kudos to you are for being open minded enough to want your partners happiness and for making sure the pair of you can be so honest with each other.

ShiftedJewel -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 4:56:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: tade Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? I agree with this completely. Anyone who is divorced has broken their vows. "For better or worse". I dont agree that people should stay married to someone who habitually cheats, is a drunk, an abuser, liar, or what have you...But lets call a spade a spade. Anyone who divorced their spouse did not live up to the "for better or worse" crapola. People are not perfect, people do change, people do grow, and sometimes....its really no one's fault, but rather something that was meant to be, and something that was also meant to end. The bitterness is all for naught. How about trying this one for size... the one that is slowly poisoning the marriage through lies and deceit while being unfaithful to the unknowing spouse is indeed breaking the vows... Just as filing for divorce is also breaking the vows... the big difference here... and I see it as a huge difference... BOTH people are aware and informed. To me.. that's a big deal. *Jewel*

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 6:36:26 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dustyn quote: ORIGINAL: champagnewishes It's called being an adult and handling life as one. I don't think the OP knows how and is content to play cute little games at the expense of those who trust her.... I've known quite a few like this, and they usually howl like a kicked wolf when put in the same scenario, or when put into a scenario when they have no control over what happens... the B side of the record is rarely as enjoyable, but sometimes... just sometimes... some perspective is gained... or at least one would hope so... (Just catching up.) You have given me my new thought on this...I just hope her husband is fucking his secretary! I wonder what she would think of his two worlds... Taggard

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 6:48:34 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: Dustyn quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo SSKitten: Speak to an attorney . Do not be scared to pursue a divorce. You will not lose your children because of an affair. Depending on the state, oh yes you can... read up on divorce laws... I guess now our op will be scared to pursue a divorce. (still catching up) Life sometimes sucks when you fuck people over. The people in many states have judged that cheating is wrong and that those who don't cheat should be given the benfit of the doubt when it comes to getting custody of the kids. I was a liar and a cheater. I have never been cheated on. I do not personally judge what the OP did as wrong. I have played with married women (with and without their husband's knowledge), and although I probably wouldn't do it again, I would never rule out the possibility, because people are frail. However, I know that cheating leads to self-hate and self-destruction. Don't be surprised if it leads to others hating and trying to destroy you. Taggard

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 7:48:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: tade Before you begin to cast stones about them not being honest with their spouses and ending thier marraiges,wouldn't ending said union also be breaking their vows? But hardly anyone choses to adhere to that whole "Till death do us part" thing. So which vows are exceptable to break and which ones aren't? I agree with this completely. Anyone who is divorced has broken their vows. "For better or worse". I dont agree that people should stay married to someone who habitually cheats, is a drunk, an abuser, liar, or what have you...But lets call a spade a spade. Anyone who divorced their spouse did not live up to the "for better or worse" crapola. People are not perfect, people do change, people do grow, and sometimes....its really no one's fault, but rather something that was meant to be, and something that was also meant to end. The bitterness is all for naught. How about trying this one for size... the one that is slowly poisoning the marriage through lies and deceit while being unfaithful to the unknowing spouse is indeed breaking the vows... Just as filing for divorce is also breaking the vows... the big difference here... and I see it as a huge difference... BOTH people are aware and informed. To me.. that's a big deal. *Jewel* There are differencs, yes. However in the most fundamental sense, anyone getting a divorce is breaking their vow. Who is to say which broken vow is worse? Its an individual thing. Some husband may not mind that his wife broke the fidelity vow, maybe he get can over that, but would be crushed if she breaks the "till death do us part" vow in asking for a divorce. For some people, fucking around is worse, for some people, having their spouse divorce them is worse. Breaking a vow is breaking a vow. Different vows, yes. But which is worse? Completely depends on the person. The jist of my post was that people should not lie to their spouse or stay in the marriage. That has been my position throughout. However, there is never one who is "poisoning" the marriage all by themselves. Usually there is responsbility on both partners. Sometimes the person who is cheating (which I do not advocate, but understand) is doing so because hubby has been laying on the couch with a beer and a remote for the last 20 years neglecting his wife's needs. Just an example. My point is, when a marriage fails, its usually on both parties. To sit there and single out one spouse's mistakes as the ones that broke the marriage, and say that the other spouse's mistakes were more acceptable would be ridiculous..( I am not saying that is your stance.) Everytime one lies to the other its a betrayal, when one breaks confidences that should stay in the marital union, its a betrayal, when one doesnt give a shit that the other one feels neglected its a betrayal, when one fucks around its a betrayal.etc etc. I was married to a man for 15 yrs. All my friends are married, (some divorced). And I can say with complete certainty that when a marriage survives its because of the efforts of both people; and when it fails, its the responsibility of both people, as well. Keep in mind something else....usually by the time the cheater is cheating, the marriage has already broken down, thats why theyre cheating. Again, I advocate telling the other spouse and getting out of it, so both can move on happily. I do not however advocate blaming one or the other. Its never ONE move, from ONE person that ends a marriage. And sometimes, in fact most often, imo, its simply a matter of 2 people being mismatched. 2 people who changed and no longer fit. If someone is fucking around, they want to be the type who can fuck others freely. If the other spouse doesnt like it, then they should end the relationship. Its a mismatch; one wants to fuck others, one wants monogamy. Its no one's fault, They each want different things from a relationship. But its human nature, when a marriage ends, for one to blame the other for the responsbility of it, when usually its simply a matter of 2 people who are simply mismatched. Hence my statement about the bitterness and the need to place blame. It just not good for anyone and will only overtake you.

marieToo -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 7:59:27 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TallDarkAndWitty quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo quote: ORIGINAL: Dustyn quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo SSKitten: Speak to an attorney . Do not be scared to pursue a divorce. You will not lose your children because of an affair. Depending on the state, oh yes you can... read up on divorce laws... I guess now our op will be scared to pursue a divorce. (still catching up) Life sometimes sucks when you fuck people over. The people in many states have judged that cheating is wrong and that those who don't cheat should be given the benfit of the doubt when it comes to getting custody of the kids. I was a liar and a cheater. I have never been cheated on. I do not personally judge what the OP did as wrong. I have played with married women (with and without their husband's knowledge), and although I probably wouldn't do it again, I would never rule out the possibility, because people are frail. However, I know that cheating leads to self-hate and self-destruction. Don't be surprised if it leads to others hating and trying to destroy you. Taggard Taggard: There are many ways to "cheat". Lying to your spouse is one of them. Fucking someone else is another. Being married to drugs and ignoring your family is another form of "cheating". The mother who had an affair, is a much better custodial parent than the man who is a heroin addict but who never "cheated". Now, should the herion junkie be given the benefit of the doubt when it comes to custody because he's not a cheater? This is why in most states this personal shit doesnt come into play, unless there is abuse of the child involved. However, I am learning that in some states they still live in the dark ages, where the cheater should wear a scarlet letter, and witches really should be burned at the stake. Oh....and how do you know her husband isn't fucking his secretary? The non-cheating spouse is rarely an innocent victim, imo.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 8:03:21 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: marieToo Oh....and how do you know her husband isn't fucking his secretary? As my grandmother used to say, from your lips to God's ears! Let's hope he is no victim and he is just as big an asshole as she is! Taggard

ZenDragoness -> RE: two worlds of trust (6/11/2006 8:32:26 AM)
Reading this long thread i am not in two worlds of trust, but i found myself in two camps at the same time. I lived my life and plan to do it further on by my sentence: Secrets are binding energy. So i am not cheating and i really dislike to be betrayed. This covers more then sex and/or Sm. I do not live my life in compartments and i am sure, as i saw the results, that living a fractured life is in the end a wasted life. So much about that. On the other hand i have a really deep contempt for people who are belong to the self proclaimed high horses moral riders. And there are such a lot in this thread that i am feeling sick. There is a song by Depeche Mode: Try walking in my shoes. It is so easy to be hateful and mean, you (generally you the moralistis) do not understand that in condemming another person the way you do it here, you bring yourself something bad in the world and not by any stretch of the imagination help or cure a bad situation as it is described in the opening post. From the core of my heart i wish all of you harmony.

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