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RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 3:32:51 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

tazzy there are many dangerous mentally ill people in this world that act and function just as normal as you or I...until they act. Good available healthcare will not stop these types of crimes. Even if they do show signs of problems it is not easy to force treatment in a free society.


Pittsburgh police released the identity of the suspected gunman in a shooting that left two dead, including the shooter, and injured seven others at in the psychiatric clinic of the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center.

Pittsburgh Police Cmdr. Thomas Stangrecki named John Shick, 30, of Pittsburgh, as the suspected gunman Friday, according to ABC affiliate WTAE-TV in Pittsburgh. Stangrecki said they have not yet been able to determine a motive.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/pittsburgh-police-identify-gunman-psych-clinic-shooting/story?id=15894104#.UAqDf2Ge6ik

PITTSBURGH - John Shick, the gunman who opened fire inside Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic of UPMC, may have been planning something bigger that involved bringing explosives to the Oakland facility.

Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala, speaking at a Wednesday news conference at the University of Pittsburgh police station, said Molotov cocktails, as well as a floor plan of the hospital, were discovered inside Shick's apartment.



Read more: http://www.wtae.com/DA-Questions-Why-Western-Psych-Gunman-Wasn-t-Committed/-/9681798/12278520/-/13r2yejz/-/index.html#ixzz21Fevyz00

An Allegheny County judge on Thursday ordered an Oregon hospital to turn over medical and psychiatric records for the man police said opened fire in the lobby of an Oakland hospital in March, killing a man and wounding five people.

Medical Examiner Dr. Karl Williams requested the court order to obtain the records from Providence Portland Medical Center. John F. Shick, 30, of Oakland was committed there after he was arrested in 2009 for fighting with police.

"We're just trying to put the whole picture together in terms of how events in the past led up to what happened here," Williams said.

Shick, who moved to Pittsburgh in July and briefly attended a graduate biology program at Duquesne University, fatally shot therapist Michael Schaab, 25, of Regent Square and wounded five in Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic on March 8. University of Pittsburgh police officers killed Shick in a shootout.

Williams subpoenaed the hospital for the records on March 23, but lawyers for Providence said they needed a court order to comply, he said. It's unclear when Providence will release the records.

"We have the expectation that everything is good, and this is what they wanted and they will release the records," Williams said. "I think it's going to happen, I just don't think it's going to happen as soon as everyone would like."

Investigators have said Shick was schizophrenic, stopped taking his medication and became angry with doctors, who he believed misdiagnosed him.

"We're just trying to find anything we can in this event to instruct us in Allegheny County on how to prevent it from happening in the future," Williams said.

http://triblive.com/home/1182953-74/records-shick-williams-hospital-march-medical-police-providence-release-allegheny

Allegheny County District Attorney Stephen Zappala, Jr. says the man who opened fire inside Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic March 8 should have been involuntarily committed two weeks before the deadly rampage. Police say John Shick shot and killed one person and wounded five others before University of Pittsburgh police fatally shot him.

Zappala says the 30 year old Shick had twice visited a family health center with a baseball bat before an unidentified doctor requested involuntary commitment for him in late February.

But Zappala says he believes an employee in the County Office of Behavioral Health blocked Shick from being committed, saying he hadn't made any specific threats.

Zappala says Shick was off his anti-psychotic medication and angry at doctors for perceived failure to diagnose a number of maladies.

Zappala added that his office will subpoena records from Columbia University regarding Shick. The DA's office has learned that Shick received mental health treatments in New York as early as 2005. Shick graduated from Columbia in 2004. Investigators have been trying to determine his mindset and any previous warnings about his behavior.

Columbia spokesman Brian Connolly did not immediately respond to a request seeking comment.

http://w.essentialpublicradio.org/story/2012-04-13/district-attorney-wants-know-if-county-worker-blocked-commitment-gunman-10794

Allegheny County's Department of Human Services is clarifying for physicians its role in the process of involuntary commitments to mental facilities as questions remain about reaction to a troubling encounter John F. Shick had with UPMC staff less than a month before his March 8 shooting rampage at Western Psychiatric Institute and Clinic.

In a two-page memo detailing state law, DHS's Behavioral Health Office noted that while county mental health delegates can authorize an involuntary commitment of someone deemed dangerous to themselves or others, they cannot override the authority of a physician or a police officer from doing the same. Such an involuntary commitment is known as a "302," named for the authorizing section number in the state's Mental Health Procedures Act.

The actions and authority of mental health delegates have come under scrutiny by the county district attorney's office, which said its probe of the Western Psych attack found at least one incident in which it appeared a physician's attempt to involuntarily commit Shick was blocked by a county delegate.

In an emailed response to questions from the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, which obtained the memo being distributed to hospitals and mental health agencies, DHS said: "If we become aware of any confusion regarding processes or procedures, we clarify and educate those involved. As a result of the questions raised after the incident at WPIC, it became increasingly clear that we needed to issue a 302 clarification throughout the system regarding the county's role in the commitment process by physicians."

District Attorney Stephen A. Zappala Jr., whose office is conducting a wide-ranging investigation into the Shick mass shooting, said Friday he was pleased to see the clarification. He said it states the law correctly and eliminates apparent confusion that 302 commitments by doctors and police officers must be approved by county delegates.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/neighborhoods-city/western-psychiatric-institute-and-clinic-rampage-prompts-changes-640613/?print=1

In this case.... not the Colorado one... 2 people died due to the lack of medical care....

yes... lack... as proven.... over time.

Was the lack of medical care the cause? For one... yes.

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RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:07:38 AM   
DesideriScuri


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Was the lack of medical care the cause? For one... yes.


No, tazzy, it wasn't the cause. You really are getting a bit ridiculous with this shit. Next thing you know, you'll blame the extinction of the dinosaurs, "Lucy" and purported Homo sapiens forebears, and all the rest of the fauna on the no-longer-to-be-seen list, on lack of health care.

Both shooters in the Columbine massacre were getting psychiatric care. The supposed "ringleader" of the two, was being treated with behavioral therapy and prescription medications. His parents had been taking him for therapy for years. Did lack of health care cause that tragedy? Did health care cause that tragedy? The answer to both is, "no."

If only Adam & Eve had national health care, Abel may have survived....

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Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:19:28 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

Are you this filled with rage and hate?


I think that's the answer right there. I guess some people can't help themselves. They have to drag their left vs right bs into any and all conversations they have. It is sad to me that even with a tragedy like this one, they are still going to try and make points off the other side. They don't care about the people who were killed, they are too excited trying to use the situation to make themselves look good. In less than 24 hours after the shooting I had already gotten a request to sign a petition to stop the gun violence. It makes me wonder if they had the petition all written up except for the details and were sitting around just hoping for a chance to use it.

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Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:25:57 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Was the lack of medical care the cause? For one... yes.


No, tazzy, it wasn't the cause. You really are getting a bit ridiculous with this shit. Next thing you know, you'll blame the extinction of the dinosaurs, "Lucy" and purported Homo sapiens forebears, and all the rest of the fauna on the no-longer-to-be-seen list, on lack of health care.

Both shooters in the Columbine massacre were getting psychiatric care. The supposed "ringleader" of the two, was being treated with behavioral therapy and prescription medications. His parents had been taking him for therapy for years. Did lack of health care cause that tragedy? Did health care cause that tragedy? The answer to both is, "no."

If only Adam & Eve had national health care, Abel may have survived....


I disagree. If that man had been committed as his doctor wanted, that person would not have died by Shick's hand.

Spin it all you want.

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Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:33:40 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Was the lack of medical care the cause? For one... yes.


No, tazzy, it wasn't the cause. You really are getting a bit ridiculous with this shit. Next thing you know, you'll blame the extinction of the dinosaurs, "Lucy" and purported Homo sapiens forebears, and all the rest of the fauna on the no-longer-to-be-seen list, on lack of health care.

Both shooters in the Columbine massacre were getting psychiatric care. The supposed "ringleader" of the two, was being treated with behavioral therapy and prescription medications. His parents had been taking him for therapy for years. Did lack of health care cause that tragedy? Did health care cause that tragedy? The answer to both is, "no."

If only Adam & Eve had national health care, Abel may have survived....


I disagree. If that man had been committed as his doctor wanted, that person would not have died by Shick's hand.

Spin it all you want.


According to the article...

""His primary care physician had requested that he be (committed). However, by the time the mobile unit could respond back to (UPMC) Shadyside to talk to the people that actually witnessed this behavior, they were gone for the day," said Allegheny County Assistant District Attorney Mark Tranquilli."

So he obviously had health care because they were treating him.

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:35:46 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I didnt say health care... I said medical care.

I am going to amend this.

The constant complaint of the ACA is that government will interfere. Yet here we have a prime example of government interfering before the ACA is even fully implemented.

Denial of medical care.

< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/21/2012 4:37:27 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:36:07 AM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		And his health care was obviously working perfectly well, wasn't it?

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Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:40:02 AM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I didnt say health care... I said medical care.



He was getting medical care, he just was not following their directions...

"Investigators said Shick was diagnosed with schizophrenia, but was not taking the medication and becoming increasingly hostile and violent. After two February incidents involving a baseball bat at UPMC Shadyside, Shick's doctor tried having him committed, but simple circumstances halted that attempt."

Now that care obviously failed, but it was because there was NO medical care.



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Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:41:30 AM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		But Zappala says he believes an employee in the County Office of Behavioral Health blocked Shick from being committed, saying he hadn't made any specific threats.

........

The actions and authority of mental health delegates have come under scrutiny by the county district attorney's office, which said its probe of the Western Psych attack found at least one incident in which it appeared a physician's attempt to involuntarily commit Shick was blocked by a county delegate.

And a County Employee blocked commitment.. ending the line of medical care.. and health care.. based upon bureaucratic bullshit instead of his physicians advice.


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 7/21/2012 4:42:10 AM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:50:53 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

But Zappala says he believes an employee in the County Office of Behavioral Health blocked Shick from being committed, saying he hadn't made any specific threats.

........

The actions and authority of mental health delegates have come under scrutiny by the county district attorney's office, which said its probe of the Western Psych attack found at least one incident in which it appeared a physician's attempt to involuntarily commit Shick was blocked by a county delegate.

And a County Employee blocked commitment.. ending the line of medical care.. and health care.. based upon bureaucratic bullshit instead of his physicians advice.



So first you said it was because he didn't have any medical care and now you say it's because they ended it. Why don't you make up your mind and then get back to us.

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:51:40 AM   
Lucylastic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

<snip> Next thing you know, you'll blame the extinction of the dinosaurs, "Lucy" and purported Homo sapiens forebears, and all the rest of the fauna on the no-longer-to-be-seen list, on lack of health care.

</snip>

Contrary to popular belief, Im NOT extinct

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RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:53:57 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
Both shooters in the Columbine massacre were getting psychiatric care. The supposed "ringleader" of the two, was being treated with behavioral therapy and prescription medications. His parents had been taking him for therapy for years. Did lack of health care cause that tragedy? Did health care cause that tragedy? The answer to both is, "no."

Indeed in such a case the medication may have been a causative factor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri
If only Adam & Eve had national health care, Abel may have survived....

It was good that Abel was - inadvertently - killed. That was the Divine at work.

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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 4:57:33 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		He has a condition that requires medical care.

Lets say you are going to a Doctor and he prescibes you surgery to get out a cancerous lesion. But your insurance company says no.

You have just been denied medical care.

This is no different.

In this case, as a result of the denial, someone died.

He was denied the medical care his condition required.

I cant help it if that is beyond your understanding.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:00:43 AM   
Moonhead


Posts: 16520
Joined: 9/21/2009
Status: offline 		Well yes, but we're much better off with a few nerds and kids shot than we are having somebody who's mentally ill committed before they kill somebody else, aren't we? Hell, allowing doctors to lock up nutcases would be evil nanny state socialist nonsense like they have in Europe...

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Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:06:35 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		I know right? After all, a Doctor surely wouldnt be able to determine when someone is losing it mentally... or at least not as well as a county official.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Moonhead)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:27:02 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

He has a condition that requires medical care.

Lets say you are going to a Doctor and he prescibes you surgery to get out a cancerous lesion. But your insurance company says no.

You have just been denied medical care.

This is no different.

In this case, as a result of the denial, someone died.

He was denied the medical care his condition required.

I cant help it if that is beyond your understanding.


Are insurance companies the only ones who can pay a doctor?

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:28:14 AM   
SilverMark


Posts: 3457
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Sounds like Nancy Grace is asking questions that have already been answered, as she looks to milk tragedy for her ratings.

Doesn't she ALWAYS....my stomach turns at the sound of that woman's voice!



You and Rich probably secretly watch Nancy Grace.
I know the type.
Talk a lot of trash about Nancy, and watch her when you are alone.
Rich, is drinking whiskey on the rocks and watching Nancy while he sits here and posts, half the time.



The only use for Nancy's mouth would be.....naaaa....getting head would be ruined for the rest of my life!

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RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:28:34 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Unless you can pay upfront.. no Hospital or Doctor will allow that surgery.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:28:35 AM   
searching4mysir


Posts: 2757
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I know right? After all, a Doctor surely wouldnt be able to determine when someone is losing it mentally... or at least not as well as a county official.


And when you commit someone one against their will, aren't you violating their rights? Shouldn't there be some sort of government protection of those rights?

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Political Implications of the Colorado Shootings? - 7/21/2012 5:30:03 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		There is... its called a 72 hour hold.. in which time, the courts hold a hearing to determine if the patient remains or is released.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to searching4mysir)
Profile   Post #: 80
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