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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:14:14 AM   
sexyred1


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

No, I would not do that. It would be at that point that I would realize I had not chosen wisely after all.

There is a fine line between internal enslavement and knowing your personal boundaries. What possible reason could a dominant having for wanting/needing you to eat a bowl of shit? Knowing you will be obedient (unless he loses his mind)? Mine already knows that.

Sorry, that degree of sadism for it's own sake has no appeal to me in the least.






I agree with this. To me there are certain things in life that do not have to be experienced and some of the extreme things that I hear about fall into that category, no matter how dedicated you are to a partner. Sorry.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:40:26 AM   
JanahX


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Bringing in the limb- chopping and steaming bowl of poop, made this thread fun.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:43:13 AM   
sexyred1


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Perhaps, but I do believe that many people fantasize about things that are so insane, that to do them would endanger themselves and others.

Fantasies are perfect; if they stay in your head.

Once you try to exorcize them, especially asking someone else to do something, is completely different.

My point is that there are so many ways in which someone can be pleasing and show their commitment, why go THERE?

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:49:28 AM   
LadyPact


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Just some random thoughts......

Would I be the type of person that someone would want to be pleasing for if I was instructing permanent, irreparable damage? If it comes to that point, do I deserve their internal enslavement or even their submission? These might be a couple of "closing the barn door after the horse is out" questions, because if we're at hand chopping stage, I've probably already got that person linked to Me, but anybody that deep into serving Me would at least question if they would still be able to do that one handed.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:55:08 AM   
JanahX


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Because - as you may or may not have noticed, on the other side, there are TONS of profiles by (mostly male Doms ) that are looking for extreme. That's really where their heads are at. They really do want to have that much power over another person, and want that type of blind submission.

And you know they find those types too - there are people out there that would rather be subjected to ANYTHING - Than be alone .

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:58:34 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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And when you are talking about internal enslavement and questioning, it appears that there are sadists who ensure their slaves are so deep they do not question. By a combination of force, humiliation, manipulation, whatever works, I suspect.

Although I have often said obedience is the backbone of submission, unquestioning obedience makes you a robot, not a person. I personally seek people in my s-types and in my own servitude.





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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 11:00:47 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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I realized in thinking about this fascinating thread that I failed to mention how very brave you are for admitting to your past.

You have come a long way, indeed.

I'm proud to be on the same forum as you, and I suspect I am not the only one !!

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 11:02:31 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Just some random thoughts......

Would I be the type of person that someone would want to be pleasing for if I was instructing permanent, irreparable damage? If it comes to that point, do I deserve their internal enslavement or even their submission? These might be a couple of "closing the barn door after the horse is out" questions, because if we're at hand chopping stage, I've probably already got that person linked to Me, but anybody that deep into serving Me would at least question if they would still be able to do that one handed.


Yes... that. With any luck Carol has a pretty good feel about who I am. I mean seriously, we've been living together for 18 years now. The entire reason such extremes are possible to consider is the same reason they are not going to happen without some really implausible situation. The reason is simple. I'm not an idiot and Carol knows that. More importantly, Carol's pretty well aware that given a choice I'd be hacking off my own limbs before hers.

I think a part of the difference in viewpoint here is that some folks are looking at the question this way:

Let's assume you're asshat dom that you barely know gets a wild whim that he'd really like to own a quadruple amputee slave because it'd give him and his buddies something to laugh over while they're drinking beer. Would you hack your limbs off?

That's not the question Carol is facing. I'm not an asshat. She knows me quite well. Any possible reasons for this command would be REAL reasons. I'm not lost in some fantasy. When I consider this question I think of things like, "Arm stuck in a rock, tide coming in, drown or gnaw your arm off." Would I expect her to obey whether or not she personally could see the tide from her vantage point? I sure as hell hope so because otherwise she's going to drown. These hypotheticals are occasionally useful to Carol and I because honestly, it's kind of hard to push her boundaries with more normal stuff. So sometimes I use examples like to demonstrate to Carol a point as a thought experiment... much like I'm trying to do on this thread.

the thing I find amusing about this is that LOTS and LOTS of people, vanilla & kinky both, say things like, "I would readily lay down my life for my partner." Well?

One last point. If Carol told me a <limb chopping command> I'd obey also. The reason I'd do so is the same reason she'd do so. This clearly demonstrates that at least for us it has nothing to do with D/s. It has EVERYTHING to do with the trust and respect we have for each other.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 11:22:05 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

One last point. If Carol told me a <limb chopping command> I'd obey also. The reason I'd do so is the same reason she'd do so. This clearly demonstrates that at least for us it has nothing to do with D/s. It has EVERYTHING to do with the trust and respect we have for each other.



This is interesting to me Jeff, cause it makes me wonder, what if the <limb chopping command> is just a matter of opinion?

I don't know if you've ever watched House, but I'd like to use that as an example.
House has a limp because at some point, he had a misdiagnosed blood cloth in his leg that caused extreme muscle atrophy. By the time everybody figured out what was wrong, his leg had gotten so bad that everybody recommended amputation. House however refused. It got to the point that the Dean of Medicine was trying to pressure his then girlfriend to sign the paperwork for amputation while he was in a medicine induced coma.

Whether or not to amputate his leg was obviously just a matter of opinion. He could have died, he could have made it and fully recovered the use of his leg. But nobody know what would happen beforehand.

So, in a situation like that, with you and Carol having a difference of opinion about what the right course of action would be would you:

- Order Carol to amputate her leg, when she feels that's not the right call?
- Follow Carol's order to amputate your own leg, when you feel that's not the right call?

I'm not trying to pin you down in an implausible situation here, but I'd be genuinely curious at what the answers would be if you have them.

Everybody else, like Jana and ChatteParfaitt, who have said they would not follow an order to chop of their own hand, would it make a difference to you if the order was given in this type of medical situation, and you and your Dom merely have a very strong difference of opinion on what the right course of action is. Would it make a difference if he had a bone fide medical reason for wanting you to amputate, with the backing of your own doctors, and your refusal to do so was against medical advice, and was risking your own life?
In other words... would you obey an order you disagreed with, if you knew he issued the order in an attempt to save your life?






< Message edited by UllrsIshtar -- 8/16/2012 11:24:53 AM >


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 11:26:34 AM   
JanahX


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I agree... She has come a long way... And i wanted to tell you that earlier.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I realized in thinking about this fascinating thread that I failed to mention how very brave you are for admitting to your past.

You have come a long way, indeed.

I'm proud to be on the same forum as you, and I suspect I am not the only one !!


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The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 11:35:00 AM   
JanahX


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And that's where my robot comment came from earlier in this thread. I can't wrap my head around that type of submission. For me, it doesn't matter how much im digging on my dom, if it came to them asking me to do things that's going to fuck me up ( mentally and or physically ) id have no problem telling them to fuck the fuck off and head for the door.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

And when you are talking about internal enslavement and questioning, it appears that there are sadists who ensure their slaves are so deep they do not question. By a combination of force, humiliation, manipulation, whatever works, I suspect.

Although I have often said obedience is the backbone of submission, unquestioning obedience makes you a robot, not a person. I personally seek people in my s-types and in my own servitude.






_____________________________

The first rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.

The second rule of Fight Club is you do not talk about Fight Club.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 12:11:30 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar



Everybody else, like Jana and ChatteParfaitt, who have said they would not follow an order to chop of their own hand, would it make a difference to you if the order was given in this type of medical situation, and you and your Dom merely have a very strong difference of opinion on what the right course of action is. Would it make a difference if he had a bone fide medical reason for wanting you to amputate, with the backing of your own doctors, and your refusal to do so was against medical advice, and was risking your own life?
In other words... would you obey an order you disagreed with, if you knew he issued the order in an attempt to save your life?








If it was a medical situation like this, I am not sure what I would do. I know I am prone to snap decision making, based on my gut, and that my gut is usually right. I know Himself is prone to much more deliberate decision making, generally based on deep research. So that would be a hard one for me, and I can't say unless faced with it, what I would do (except be confused for a time.)

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 1:27:28 PM   
MarcEsadrian


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

If I tell a slave to do something chances are I have a fairly good reason for doing so.

Whether or not the slave actually likes it is rather irrelevant.


Simple, concise, and to the point. That is, where consensual slavery is concerned. The pole points of "Dom" and "sub" have far more interpretative and operative play in my mind, however. If the relationship is heavily conditioned upon all parties getting off in perfect bliss, I suppose the submissive not liking a particular command is a problem—especially when the dominant party's pleasure hinges upon the submissive party's approval of a command or decree. Thankfully, I'm not in such a relationship.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 3:07:11 PM   
littlewonder


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I "blindly" obey Master because he's never given me any reason NOT to and because I love and trust him to do so. There is no manipulation, hypnosis, fear, etc....It's really simple....it's just sheer love and devotion.

And if it came down to the point where I had to make the choice to amputate or not Master's leg, if he said no then I would go with no and I wouldn't do it. If I did not do as he requested and he lived, he most likely would never forgive me and it would strain our relationship to the point it would be over. He has made it clear time and again that it's not my choice, it is his...no matter what it is. If I don't do as he says it says I no longer respect him or his choices. He's not a dumb or irrational man. He thinks things through, analyzes them down to the tiniest detail. He does not take chances or risk his life or anyone else's. And this all has to do with our spiritual morals and values....not bdsm. It's about respect and faith.

ETA: When my husband died there were certain medical things he wanted and did not want. There are some things I felt should not be done. I had to make that call. I made the call in favor of his choices and what he wanted because I respected and loved him. Yeah, I may disagree but ya know, anyone I'm close to, we talk about these things so that in the future we know what to do. I did this with my daughter and both my daughter and Master know my views on what I want. I have no doubts that both of them will do as I request because they respect me.


< Message edited by littlewonder -- 8/16/2012 3:10:01 PM >


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 3:14:58 PM   
limpshorty


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I thought I had posted a rather long post here. Seems I dropped the ball. I think the question on the table has a lot more relevance a few dozen steps back from the edge. There are a lot of things expected of subs that might seriously interfere with the establishment of an actual relationship between dominant and submissive people. But, since so much of what we are looking for is beyond the rules from the beginning, it might be hard to find the place where obedience becomes avoidance, and where control becomes a task, rather than an opportunity.

An example that comes to me immediately is ritualistic address, and formulaic response. So many dominants insist on it from the very beginning. I find it annoying. I find it annoying in a vanilla sense. Compelled respect is not respect at all, it is ritual. And it has less and less meaning the more often it is practiced. If I must reply, “Yes, Mistress.”, “No Mistress.” “Thank you, Mistress.” For every instance of communication, words begin to have no meaning, and then when I moan, “Oh, thank you, Mistress.” In some impassioned moment of nearly utter despair, or unexpected bliss, it has less meaning. But, submission is a partnership. If she wants it for some reason, I must accept the loss of intensity as the price of satisfying her desire. If it always remains that way, I would probably believe that she is building a wall of formulaic respect out of fear that I will have no actual respect. Out of a desire to truly serve her, it seems to me I should let her know how I feel about it. And accept the punishment if my thoughts were ill formed, or incorrect.

On the actual original premise, if my owner asks if I would like to be whipped, it seems to me she is asking for information, not permission. And so I should answer truthfully, “No, I do not. I accept that if you want to do it, I will bear the pain because I wish to please you, and if you seem to enjoy the act itself, I will try to become more accepting of it. If it simply pleases you because it expresses how much I wish to be yours, I want very much to make you proud and happy to own me. If the thin asked is something we agreed was a hard limit, I would try to explain exactly why that was something I feel I cannot do. If it is expressed as an ultimatum, “Either you get the piercing, right now, or we are through, and you can leave.” I know she has decided that this refusal is a hard limit for her. I must decide. If she knows me well, she might have decided that it is important to her, and I am simply being old fashioned, and stubborn, and she has shown me the cost, and the steel of her will. It is the sort of moment which, if chosen well from her intimate understanding of my submission, my passion, and my inherent desire to be what she wants me to be, will mark a very special moment, where she became the Mistress of my will. I might come to regard that as the best moment in my life, when I truly became her slave. If she has chosen badly, either in timing, or in understanding of the nature of my limits, it will mean that both of us have lost something precious. Unless of course, I am not a person to her, but simply an object of scorn, to be pushed until broken. If that is her nature, then breaking me is simply another step, although the last, in the domination she practices.

While that is not what I seek, it might well be what some submissive did want. To be pushed over the edge, and fall. I think it would hurt a lot.

I guess that is enough for now. This subject is a lot bigger than I am.

limpshorty

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 3:48:27 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
So, in a situation like that, with you and Carol having a difference of opinion about what the right course of action would be would you:

- Order Carol to amputate her leg, when she feels that's not the right call?
- Follow Carol's order to amputate your own leg, when you feel that's not the right call?

I'm not trying to pin you down in an implausible situation here, but I'd be genuinely curious at what the answers would be if you have them.

With the understanding that at some point hypotheticals break down and in the absence of a real example it's just whistling in the dark... I'll try.

I guess I feel like your question is a bit unreal. For every decision there is a "right" time to make it. You need to wait until you have enough confidence to move forward and you need to NOT wait till you have full information... since you seldom do in complex questions. A skilled decision maker knows when the right time is and they make it then. You're question is basically presuming a flawed decision making process.

The other thing that makes that not quite right for us is that how it goes with us is that we freely exchange ideas, thoughts, and feelings. I'm the one who collects all that and comes up with "the answer is 42". So it would be me making the decision, but I suspect the decision I'd make would be based on lots of factors... mostly who expressed the most confidence and with what data. Let's remember we are not talking about the stupid BDSM version of this where some strutting master barks out commands to amputate. This is a real life situation and I'd be trying to make the best decision I could. I respect and trust Carol a great deal.

So I suspect it would be me making the decision. I suspect Carol would not only "go along with" but actually "agree with" before I was done with the fact finding portion of the effort. Carol and I just don't get that far off the same page with each other... especially on critical issues. Actually, as I think on it I'm pretty certain that Carol would be HORRIFIED at the magnitude of this decision so would be profoundly grateful that I stepped up to the plate and made it. Again, this is not the internetism of "badass master & cringing slave girl".

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 5:26:48 PM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

I realized in thinking about this fascinating thread that I failed to mention how very brave you are for admitting to your past.

You have come a long way, indeed.

I'm proud to be on the same forum as you, and I suspect I am not the only one !!

Aw thanks, CP, very kind words.

I certainly took a scenic route, that's for sure.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/17/2012 4:25:06 AM   
RaspberryLemon


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quote:

ORIGINAL: OsideGirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon
RE: Eating shit and limb-chopping:

Neither of these examples are very realistic, but I will try to answer hypothetically regardless.
Someone in this very thread said that her ex had her eat shit. I think that qualifies as realistic.
I did read that, and I suppose you are right, that makes it realistic. What I meant by not realistic is that it doesn't strike me as something that people commonly have to worry about, and I couldn't see how it would ever come up in my life/relationship. Sorry for the confusion. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar
In other words... would you obey an order you disagreed with, if you knew he issued the order in an attempt to save your life?
Absolutely. I trust him with my life. My life is his, he owns it, and he is thus responsible for it. And although I will supply my input and even disagree strongly on a big life-impacting decision like this, in the end the decision is still his to make.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/17/2012 8:12:18 AM   
topcat


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My usual "extreme-but realistic" example is commanding her to shave her head.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/17/2012 8:17:49 AM   
Kana


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

My usual "extreme-but realistic" example is commanding her to shave her head.

Hah-Did that one a few months back. Man, was that a cathartic experience, for both of us, Broke through to brand new grounds of servitude...

Piercings fall under the extreme but real for lotsa folk too

< Message edited by Kana -- 8/17/2012 8:19:03 AM >


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