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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 10:57:18 PM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

Limb-chopping hypotheticals aren't really productive. How many amputated slaves do you see out there, hmm? Do you think this is really an issue?

I don't know what's going on with other couples but little wonder ans I are talking about trust not pleasing. So really then, how often do you end up in a situation where limb-chopping is the right answer? That's why you don't see that many amputee slaves. And honestly, in pretty much all the scenarios I can think of my reasons for giving the command would be pretty obvious.

In truth, the limb chopping theoreticals are the easiest to say "sure" to because they're very extremity makes it implausible to believe the command would be an accident or whim. The sticky wickets all are more real life stuff in my experience.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 11:17:22 PM   
JanahX


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I suppose the issue is - what one of the OPs points was - if that the Dom wants something to please him and the sub doesnt like it - it is their job to like it whether they like it or not and to do it with a smile on their face. So that just made me wonder how far would someone go to do this. Chopping off limbs is the furthest extreme that I could think of - where a sub or slave would do something on command just to please their owner. So thats why I brought it up.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Ah - I see.
But when it comes to what the thread initially is asking - to please your Dom/Master = would you go to no limits: eg - having your hand, leg whatever chopped off for the soul reason because thats what pleases your Dom(me)/Master? Because you want to be "pleasing"? Because that is what will make him happy? No other reason - Just the soul purpose of being pleasing to them.

Limb-chopping hypotheticals aren't really productive. How many amputated slaves do you see out there, hmm? Do you think this is really an issue?



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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 11:25:42 PM   
littlewonder


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and as JeffBC said, it's the easiest one to answer for the reason he gave. I would do it to please him, because I trust him. If I didn't trust him, our entire relationship and my pleasing him would be moot. It wouldn't exist.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/15/2012 11:26:55 PM   
graceadieu


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Whenready

If the "task" was only enjoyable if she enjoyed it, why would I pick something she didn't enjoy?


Yeah, that's what got me with that question. In real life, if it's necessary for the other person to enjoy the thing than pick something they enjoy. Then it's not an issue. Now, you can, like Jeff mentioned, work with the sub to get them to a place where they do enjoy the thing, but even if you can manage it, it's not going to happen overnight.

Expecting somebody to totally change how they feel about something instantly just to please you is just setting yourself up for failure. It's just unrealistic.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 12:32:11 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

I would assume that if he told me to chop off my hand that he had a good reason to do so. I trust him that much.



Same here.

I couldn't love a guy that I didn't trust enough to feel that he must have a good reason to do so where he to tell me to chop off my hand.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 12:34:38 AM   
UllrsIshtar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I was doing my exercise with the trainer who basically runs my life.


So this personal trainer... when are we going to get to see pics? He sounds hot.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 3:52:56 AM   
kalikshama


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/seconds the motion/

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 4:03:24 AM   
kalikshama


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

The whole - I am a robot thing is really a weird concept to me.

IE isn't about robotics, and to imply that those who obey to please their owner are robots is...well...not very cool.


Perhaps JanahX is thinking about the seeming lack of free will present in robots and those internally enslaved. The analogy breaks down when one considers that you left him and LW hems and haws.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 4:37:51 AM   
sunshinemiss


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quote:

ORIGINAL: UllrsIshtar


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

I was doing my exercise with the trainer who basically runs my life.


So this personal trainer... when are we going to get to see pics? He sounds hot.


You're not. Soooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy. :(

He is. *purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr* :)

(I am not willing to post photos of someone without their permission nor do I think he needs to know this aspect of my life. If he hasn't figured it out yet, well..... He certainly is aware that what he tells me to do, I pretty much do.)

A couple of my close friends from here have seen his photos when I talked to them via skype. But then they've seen photos of my food, the local park, my friend's dog, etc. :)

< Message edited by sunshinemiss -- 8/16/2012 4:38:40 AM >


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 4:53:43 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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No, I would not do that. It would be at that point that I would realize I had not chosen wisely after all.

There is a fine line between internal enslavement and knowing your personal boundaries. What possible reason could a dominant having for wanting/needing you to eat a bowl of shit? Knowing you will be obedient (unless he loses his mind)? Mine already knows that.

Sorry, that degree of sadism for it's own sake has no appeal to me in the least.





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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 6:55:50 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kalikshama

quote:

ORIGINAL: NuevaVida

quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

The whole - I am a robot thing is really a weird concept to me.

IE isn't about robotics, and to imply that those who obey to please their owner are robots is...well...not very cool.


Perhaps JanahX is thinking about the seeming lack of free will present in robots and those internally enslaved. The analogy breaks down when one considers that you left him and LW hems and haws.

I didn't leave him; he dumped me, when I was no longer emotionally capable of smiling and saying thank you for the purpose of being pleasing (see emotional masochist thread).

It's not a place I'll go again. I trust him with me, but there are some things I do as "Why?" about. The only reason my hand would willingly be chopped is if it's a matter of life and death.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 6:59:45 AM   
NuevaVida


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

No, I would not do that. It would be at that point that I would realize I had not chosen wisely after all.

There is a fine line between internal enslavement and knowing your personal boundaries. What possible reason could a dominant having for wanting/needing you to eat a bowl of shit? Knowing you will be obedient (unless he loses his mind)? Mine already knows that.

Sorry, that degree of sadism for it's own sake has no appeal to me in the least.





Why do some people skewer breasts? Why do some people nail balls to the wall? Why does anyone participate in physical sadism/masochism? A lot of slaves will endure physical torment for the sake of pleasing their masters. Emotional sadism just takes it out of the physical. I understand this does not appeal to you; it no longer appeals to me, either. But the answer to your "Why" question, at least in my former relationship, was because he got off on the power of it all.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 7:31:00 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Yes, I guess I should have mentioned, what would be the reason aside from getting off on the power of it all, since that part I *do* get.

You know that very well known saying about power corrupting, and absolute power corrupting absolutely?

My saying goes: It's a great rush to feel power over someone, to know they will do *anything* for you, but you are supposed to be secure enough in your own self not to make them.

Wow this thread does tie into the emotional masochism thread so well, doesn't it?

< Message edited by ChatteParfaitt -- 8/16/2012 7:35:55 AM >


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 7:36:07 AM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder


quote:

ORIGINAL: JanahX

Id like to know why someone would do something that is probably to most people incomprehensible (such as eating a bowl of poop) to be pleasing to someone else to make them happy - and then, according to the OP - is supposed to make them happy -

Im a sub - but I dont have that need to do something that would really piss me off - so I can be pleasing to someone else.

I guess we are zoning into the "no limit" realm - just how far would some people go to be "pleasing".

I mean would anyone have their hand chopped off because it would please their Master/Dom? I dont understand for why someone would go to extreme lengths to do WHATEVER someone else says -


I would assume that if he told me to chop off my hand that he had a good reason to do so. I trust him that much.


You're the kind of sub most doms can only dream to have, but one key factor you mention is the BIG WORD, TRUST.
Your dom has succeeded in establishing that fully with you to this extent.

Most doms just expected to be trusted immediately.
And I guess that is the CORE of most of my reluctance. The lack of trust in him.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 7:43:23 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

No, I would not do that. It would be at that point that I would realize I had not chosen wisely after all.

There is a fine line between internal enslavement and knowing your personal boundaries.


He tells me over and over that one of the things he loves about me is that I'm a strong logic person and use my head. If I blindly obeyed without pointing out things that would fail or do harm, he'd be seriously reconsidering our relationship.


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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 8:13:15 AM   
RaspberryLemon


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I'm required to be intellectually and emotionally transparent to my Master at all times. He doesn't want me "acting" or hiding things for any reason. He wants to know what's going on inside my head and out, and he wants me never to hold anything back from him.

I enjoy most of the things that my Master enjoys, so this dilemma doesn't occur often to us--we're pretty in-sync with each other. And for most things, my Master does get exponentially more enjoyment out of something the more I enjoy it (but this also works both ways--the more he enjoys something, the more I enjoy it! It's a circle with no definite starting or ending point, a boiling paradox of cause and effect.) In addition, I will genuinely enjoy actions that I would be neutral towards (or even slightly distasteful towards) simply because they please him. Pleasing him pleases me.

For things that I really don't like, I won't enjoy doing them but I will enjoy the fact that I am pleasing him. These are two conflicting feelings, but neither overrides the other. I will hate doing it, and that will be apparent, but I will not whine and complain and I'll do it anyways because it gratifies me to please him.

Let's define X as an action I don't enjoy, and that he only enjoys if I enjoy it. That being said, he's really only going to make me do X if it is important or something that needs to be done for whatever reason, be that the health of the relationship or either one of our well-beings. If there is an action that needs completing by me, he will make me do it regardless of whether or not I or he enjoy it.

Now, there are things that I don't enjoy that aren't essentials that he still makes me do on occasion. These are things he'd enjoy more if I enjoyed them, but still pleasurable to him in some way; yet they are never things that are horrifyingly objectionable to me because that would "ruin" his enjoyment for it completely. Generally speaking, he won't make me do those things, both because his enjoyment level (being affected by my own) won't be very high from it, and because he is considerate of my feelings. But sometimes, he does want those things and he knows I want to please him, so he will have me do them anyways and I won't necessarily be happy about doing those things, but I'll be happy to make him happy, so he will have me do them.

Moving on, my Master and I both see ALL these scenarios and outcomes as win-win, because they are employments and results of his good leadership of our relationship. It is a win for me regardless because I have done my duty to him and obeyed/ceded to his decision--be that him making me do something I don't enjoy, or him not making me do it. It is a win for him because he has done his duty to make the decision he thought best for us, something I respect as not always easy but something he does quite well and is confident in and proud of.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 8:31:39 AM   
RaspberryLemon


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RE: Eating shit and limb-chopping:

Neither of these examples are very realistic, but I will try to answer hypothetically regardless.

Eating a bowl of shit would never have a "good" or essential reason behind it for my Master, thus it's really not something that would ever come up. However, if he DID tell me to eat a bowl of shit, I would point out to him that it is unhealthy and has the potential to make me sick--normally I would assume he'd know this, but if he were to tell me to do it I'd assume he was out of his damn mind and thus I'm going to use my head (like he expects of me) and let him know what's up. Aside from being potentially physically harmful, making me go through something like that is something I can also practically guarantee to be emotionally harmful. So no, I would not do it.

If he told me to chop off a limb, context is everything. All situations in which I can imagine him ordering me to do this have good, solid, obvious, and most importantly essential reasons behind them. So, I'd probably know why he was telling me to do it, but if I did not know I would ask. Assuming he's got a good reason for it (which I trust that he would, because I trust him) I'd do it. Well, let me rephrase. I reality I'd most likely beg him to do it to me himself because honestly I doubt I have the fortitude to do it myself--I would try if he was somehow unavailable to help me do it, but I would most likely end up being physically incapable of completing the task myself.

Having my limb chopped off (particularly doing it myself) is by definition physically damaging (incapacitating,) and would most definitely be emotionally traumatic as well, but if it were essential (essential meaning the outcome of me NOT doing it is more damaging/dangerous or lethal,) it's something that needs to be done, which makes it acceptable.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 9:00:34 AM   
JeffBC


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quote:

ORIGINAL: graceadieu
Now, you can, like Jeff mentioned, work with the sub to get them to a place where they do enjoy the thing, but even if you can manage it, it's not going to happen overnight.

And... just to elaborate... practice makes perfect. When Carol and I started getting serious about the internal obedience side it took a lot longer than it does now for her to get her head into a different viewpoint. Quite frequently, for us, it happens pretty much instantly nowadays -- depending of course on the magnitude of the change I'm trying to make.

quote:

Expecting somebody to totally change how they feel about something instantly just to please you is just setting yourself up for failure. It's just unrealistic.

For us, how I'd say it is... "Expecting someone to change along any particular timeline is not reasonable. These things take what time they take. The most you can expect as the master is a good faith effort which may or may not succeed and will take as long as it takes." Internal stuff is squirrely... it isn't nearly as black and white as "do this" and she either does or does not.

To the various posters who persist in seeing this as automatically insane and/or robot-like -- all I can say is that if you were in our living room and saw examples you wouldn't feel that way. In the end, it's a simple question. Does your trust in the dominant exceed your dislike of the command? If so.. obey. If not... flee.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 9:21:49 AM   
OsideGirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RaspberryLemon

RE: Eating shit and limb-chopping:

Neither of these examples are very realistic, but I will try to answer hypothetically regardless.


Someone in this very thread said that her ex had her eat shit. I think that qualifies as realistic.

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RE: Emotional Transparency vs. Being Pleasing. - 8/16/2012 10:01:51 AM   
limpshorty


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Being given your very favorite serving task is not submitting. It’s being rewarded. Doing your chores is submitting, but, it’s not something you should be either proud of, or angry about. (Ok, maybe you got so many chores you can’t even finish them. That might call for some respectful and maybe even “out of character” discussion.)

So, we are talking about squicks, and limits, and challenges to those things. But all of it is about knowing who you are, and who your partner is, and that happens gradually, and constantly in a LTR.

If I submit, I make a choice. I want to do what my Mistress wants. Now, take formulaic address. It annoys me. It vanilla annoys me. If it must be included in every utterance, you might as well gag me. If I have to address her as Mistress, and say Yes, Mistress, No Mistress all day, it necessarily means less when I moan out Oh, thank you Mistress, because I hit some very low or high point, and find out just how much I want to be hers. Her insistence on formula takes that away from both of us. Now, I don’t mean slapin’ her butt and saying “Hey babe, been into the Haagendaz, huh?” when I come in. Respect is respect, and I certainly expect to give it always.

Suppose Mistress asks me if I like taking it in the ass. If I answer with a rote submission mantra, it necessarily means less than an actual communication. She is asking me for information, not permission. “No, I don’t actually like it. Do you mean you using a dildo on me? If that would be pleasing to you, I would want you to do it.” If she says, “No, I have a few friends coming over, and some of them like taking a slave that way.” I have a lot of thinking to do, and hopefully she will lead me through it.

I expect to do things I don’t like. Routinely, if they are things she wants. I am hopeful that they will be things that bring her pleasure, and also that I will be rewarded by seeing her feeling that pleasure. All of this is part of submitting my entire self to her. She should be confident that I will stretch my limits, and even my ass, if that is what she wants. If the reason she wants it is that she knows I don’t like it, but will do it anyway, then she should let me know, either subtly, or in plain words, “I want you do this, because you don’t like it. It makes me feel good to own you, and abuse you.” “Beg me to do you with my dildo, every day. On the day that you realize that you actually do crave it, tell me.”

In behavior modification, there is a concept called successive approximation. If skillfully combined with associative reward, and negative schedule aversive stimulus, a willing subject can learn to be very pleased to do things they once found abhorrent. By the way, negative schedule aversive stimuli are those undesired things like wihppings, that are delivered continuously until the desired behavior occurs. Then the stimuli stop, and the associative reward is given. There is a very strong effect of associative reward in the first few iterations of this sequence, and it will cause the subject to try very hard to achieve the same behavior, in the future. If the reward is repeated reliably for several iterations in the beginning, it will work best if it is applied only intermittently in subsequent trials. Using this method, and maintaining it for a few dozen formalized sessions will fairly reliably alter the subject’s behavior permanently, if he is encouraged emotionally, throughout. So, the slave girl who hates being publicly displayed becomes a slut who pulls her skirts up on command just for the amusement of her Dom. And she doesn’t just do it, she loves it.

Giving some on permission, and even co-operation to do this to you is a very profound submission. My dream is that that profound submission will be a great pleasure for her. (ok, there is no her, yet.)

limpshorty

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