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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 9:33:12 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

With "no limit" folks, I tend to look at them as new people who need guidance in finding what a limit really is.

Please don't take this question wrong.

When you are talking with people like this, do you see yourself as just someone who is more experienced, and therefore, able to guide?
Or is it along the thoughts of 'I really need to help this person'?

Or are they one and the same in your mind?

Edited to add:I admit that yes, I am picking apart everyone who has posted so far. Not because I find fault with what you are saying, but rather because I truly want to understand why you think the way you do. This way, I am hoping that in the future, I will have a better understanding of statements that are made.

< Message edited by IrishMist -- 8/19/2012 9:35:37 AM >

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 9:47:12 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		Like you, I never mention limits such as kids, animals, or death, because for me those things seem ludicrous. I mean, WHY would I choose anyone who had mentioned those interests. I do have limits, I just never say those are among them because it is beyond my reasoning to think I could be with anyone like that.
However, I can see why people might insist on including them when they naysay people who say they have no limits.

Why? In my early days of discovering this stuff I had already been doing was considered perversion AND lol I could find it on the net I had the occasion to meet quite a few people in person, or have long conversations with them over months or years. And indeed... I was approached by a "gentleman" who enjoyed seeing his women pleasure his dogs. One guy who I spoke to for a while since we shared a common interest in watercolor, disclosed he had a fantasy about being with a mom and daughter. When he asked how old my daughters were I decided our love of art was not sufficient to maintain contact with him. I met a man who insisted that his woman MUST be hairy, the hairier the better even if it mean taking hormones or what ever to increase that potential. I shared a few drinks with a woman who had the ends of two of her fingers and one toe lopped off by gardening shears by her husband because he was sadistic and she was his slave to do with what he wished. She told me he kept a machete between his mattress and boxspring to remind her that her life was in his hands. And she expressed she fully expected to die at his hands. This was expressed very matter of factly, as if she was not only resigned to it, but had decided if her life was to end she wanted him to have the satisfaction.

You state your limit is bondage, but it looks like you never mention that when people bring up limits, probably because for you it is a non issue. Your mate has been made aware and is in willing agreement with you on that matter. I state I do have limits because I am female to female phobic and it is rare to find a man who does not have that curiousity. No matter what male I choose as my mate I make sure that I state that limit up front because without that in place we could not go further.

Limits for me are discussed up front, or if you are together for a while, as they occur because someone suddenly got a wild hair to try it. I actually never knew I had a limit about having someone pick me up until my honeymoon.

I do think we all have limits but if someone states, "I have no limits" to me that means either they have never done a thing, OR that they, like me, have chosen a mate that has been carefully vetted for oddities during courtship. lol and I guess it might also mean they are like that woman I met with 3 severed digits who was willing to play out her kink till it took her life, with her mate who in my opinion was bat shit crazy.


< Message edited by Missokyst -- 8/19/2012 9:55:18 AM >

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 10:07:29 AM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

Like you, I never mention limits such as kids, animals, or death, because for me those things seem ludicrous.


They may seem ludicrous to you, they certainly seem ludicrous to me. However, they do not appear to be all that ludicrous to people from the profile side. And who knows how many wander through as lurkers? I wouldn't want to guess.

So I don't view people who have those things listed as limits as idiots, I view them more as hopeful optimists who think others actually read profiles, and want to make it clear that they don't engage in certain illegal activities.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 10:40:11 AM   
Delilya


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist
Or is it along the thoughts of 'I really need to help this person'?


This. I am thankful for the people who have helped to guide and teach me. It's easy to say you'd do everything, when you don't really know what everything is. I ask the same questions of them that I myself had to answer. Could I do so and so to a person and to what degree. They need to ask themselves, could I allow someone to do this to me and where do I want it to stop. It helps them find the limits they didn't know they had, because they were unaware of what may be asked of them.



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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 10:45:05 AM   
NuevaVida


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What a great topic.

To start, when he and I were diving deeper into getting to know each other, he asked the "limits" question. My response was that I don't really like talking about limits (because in the past what I once felt were "hard limits" were stretched way beyond where I ever thought I'd go). I said I don't have a list of limits, but there are certain things I hope to never do again. He asked what they were, and we talked about them.

Here's the thing, because of my past, I know what I'm *capable* of doing, if circumstances and conditions are met. So, those "obvious" limits aren't so obvious to me anymore. And I believe we're all capable, whether we believe it or not. The human mind is a fascinating place, and given certain brainwashing strategies, internal enslavement strategies, or any other kind of strategy, the mind can be stretched and manipulated to take us anywhere. Whether we believe it or not.

Now, I can sit here and say "No, I'll never to XYZ again" or "It's no longer possible for me to be internally enslaved" and I would actually mean it and believe it. Or just the opposite - I could say "I have NO limits to him, even if he wants to kill me" and I might actually mean it and believe it. But the human mind can trick us, or can change its perspective. I think the reason people get so emotional and adamant about their own such statements is because, when challenged, they do not want to believe - or they can not fathom believing - otherwise.

In other words, "Yes, I'd consent to having my limb chopped" - if they've never had a limb chopped before, and have never been in that position before, they really do not know how they'd react if the Owner showed up with an axe one day. Challenging that actually challenges their psyche and they can't/don't want to/ can't fathom believing that perhaps, just maybe, they really DO have a limit. Personally speaking, that was the case with me, in my last relationship. I wanted him to believe, and I wanted myself to believe - so strongly - that there would never be something I could say No to. So I held fast to that, and insisted that yes, he could kill me if he wanted, because my entire world and identity was built upon a "no limits" slavery to him, and if I didn't have that, then who the hell was I??

And the same can work in reverse.

I think I'm rambling all over the place here and I hope my thoughts are cohesive enough to make out. A bit too much caffeine this morning lol.

When I see people adamant about Limits or No Limits, to the point of getting emotional or angry about it, I think they're holding tight to a belief they *have* to have, because they don't know how to process believing otherwise.

As for me, I'd like to think there are things I'd never do again (internal enslavement being one of them), but I honestly don't know. This is why I don't often participate in No Limits conversations.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 10:56:38 AM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline 		I can't actually imagine walking away from a prospective partner on the basis of one statement. I'd need to explore the context of that statement carefully before I made such a big decision. In truth, I think that doesn't often happen in the real world. My general observation is that the internet lives in blacks & whites. People in the real world deal in shades of grey.

For me, a "limit" is how an s-type protects him/herself from a d-type. For that reason they have no place in any relationship of mine... vanilla or kinky. I'm seeking maximum intimacy and you can't have that when you fear your partner and need protection from them. If I was in love with some woman and we were looking at making a go of it and she brought up "limits" I'd be inclined to say something like, "How about we don't discuss this at all? You obviously don't know me well enough to trust me to that extent but that's fine. I already love you so I'll take you vanilla as well as kink. We'll talk about D/s again when more trust & respect has formed."

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 11:18:11 AM   
Lucifyre


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ChatteParfaitt

quote:

Like you, I never mention limits such as kids, animals, or death, because for me those things seem ludicrous.


They may seem ludicrous to you, they certainly seem ludicrous to me. However, they do not appear to be all that ludicrous to people from the profile side. And who knows how many wander through as lurkers? I wouldn't want to guess.

So I don't view people who have those things listed as limits as idiots, I view them more as hopeful optimists who think others actually read profiles, and want to make it clear that they don't engage in certain illegal activities.



Chatte, this is not directed ay you, but to those that view my listing the things I do in my profile and view me as the idiot you described.
But you kind of hit the nail on the head with what they're all dancing around...saying it without really having to say it. Thanks for being brave enough to type it out loud.

I find it extremely insulting that I am viewed as ludicris or an idiot or anything of that nautre because of my wanting to WARD OFF THE CRAZIES.

I don't bother listing other"normal" limits in my profile because those can be discussed later <if> there is any kind of contact aside from online to be planned. Otherwise it's all irellevant IMO

If just by listing those things as limits in my profile it keeps me from getting all those nutcase emails on the other side then so be it. I can deal with not getting any damned mail.
The rest of you that are pretty much going out of your way to say that my stating the obvious in my profile is a bad thing. and I'm an idiot because of it...fuck it then..enjoy your emails from the crazies LOL

Lucifyre

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 11:35:32 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

and I guess it might also mean they are like that woman I met with 3 severed digits who was willing to play out her kink till it took her life

I have to respond to this simply because, in a way, yes, I am one of those to a degree.

I have mentioned before that during my time with my late husband, I often needed stitches, or had broken bones, etc. And I know that it has shocked many to think that I could so casually discuss having my bones broken and not think about leaving the relationship.
For me, it was a case of him using the last means to stop me from doing some serious damage. I know that's whacko in some people's minds, but it does not change the facts.

I have mentioned before that being physical ( fighting ), was for me, a means of releasing alot of anger and confusion. What many fail to realize is that because of the people I grew up with, when I fight, I fight for survival. And in my mind, that means, me living, you dead.
NOW, years later, I can control that...but then, I could not.
So, when we would get into these altercations, it would get to the point that he needed to do something that would literally STOP me. Sometimes, it was to just knock me unconscious. If that did not work, then it meant drastic measures that usually ended up with a broken bone, or a dislocated shoulder, etc etc.

I understand why he did what he did; which is why it never crossed my mind to even think about leaving. He was my control switch. Through him, I learned how to control myself. I mean, lets face it...a broken bone just fucking hurts. And sooner or later it has to get through that you don't want any more broken bones.

So, in a way, I kind of get the lady who let her partner chop off her toes/fingers etc.
Would I have gone that far?
I don't know. Those scenario's never presented themselves.

What's more, I can sit here and say that now, I would not let things get to a level such as that. But in all honesty, I have not changed that much over the years. I still use the physical to control myself. The only difference now is that it happens to be a punching bag in my basement, instead of a person. If I was to get into another relationship, I don't know what I would be willing to let happen.

Now that's a scary thought.

quote:

This. I am thankful for the people who have helped to guide and teach me. It's easy to say you'd do everything, when you don't really know what everything is. I ask the same questions of them that I myself had to answer. Could I do so and so to a person and to what degree. They need to ask themselves, could I allow someone to do this to me and where do I want it to stop. It helps them find the limits they didn't know they had, because they were unaware of what may be asked of them.

Delilya:
Thank you for the clarification.

NuevaVida.
What to say lol.
I can remember when you were in the relationship that you mention from the past, and it amazes me how far you have come from your previous thoughts.
quote:

When I see people adamant about Limits or No Limits, to the point of getting emotional or angry about it, I think they're holding tight to a belief they *have* to have, because they don't know how to process believing otherwise.

What you said here is really interesting. I have never thought of it in those terms before. To tell the truth, I would be very interested in how others react to this statement.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 11:39:08 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

I find it extremely insulting that I am viewed as ludicris or an idiot or anything of that nautre because of my wanting to WARD OFF THE CRAZIES

I admit that yes, when someone mentions it here, those are the first thoughts that go through my mind.
It's no excuse, but I do admit that I never even think about those on the other side when I answer a particularly sensitive subject such as this. I tend to ony think about the people who post here and what their thoughts are...it usually stops there.
I have, however, come away with a better understanding now about WHY some people post what they do.
I guess that's a good thing.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 11:50:17 AM   
IrishMist


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quote:

In truth, I think that doesn't often happen in the real world. My general observation is that the internet lives in blacks & whites. People in the real world deal in shades of grey.

Ok, this is one of those statements that has me just wanting to say WTF. Instead, I am going to step back and like the statement made by LadyPact, I am going to think on it first

I'll get back to you lol.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 1:05:39 PM   
JeffBC


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From: Canada
Status: offline 		Keep in mind my real world experience is HIGHLY limited and also a limited sample set based upon the types of folks I would choose as friends. I just can't imagine any one of them making a yes/no decision on the basis of that statement alone without at least some follow-up questioning. Sure, there are the "limits" and "no limits" groups. I just don't see the discussions that I'm in when I'm in people's living rooms being quite that boolean.

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I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 1:07:07 PM   
stellauk


Posts: 1360
Status: offline 		I admit that I don't understand why this is such a big issue. But then again I don't understand what the big deal is over bondage and I'm here on the assumption that I'm incompatible with 99.5% of people posting here, so it's not really a major issue.

I can understand the topic coming up when you're in a new relationship or dynamic, or communicating, during the 'speculation' phase and you discuss hypothetical situations and interests trying to work out what makes the other person tick and how its all going to look in the bigger picture.

But to base a dynamic on such stated limits, or hold someone to it, or have someone fill out a BDSM checklist is to me sheer folly. In fact the next person who hands me a BDSM checklist to fill out will find me turning it over and writing the following

Current betting

No strings housework ................. 7-2
Massages (giving) ...................... 11-4
Anal sex......................................25-1
Oral sex .....................................28-1
Threesomes.................................50-1
Bondage.....................................500-1
Illegal acts ...............25,500,000,000-1

(Of course I'm being hypothetical here)

Why? We all have our own definitions I'm sure of BDSM and what it actually is. For me it isn't defined by the activities, nor the toys, nor the clothing, nor the labels that we choose to place on our own relationships and dynamics.

To me it's defined by the things you give and for another person, the needs and wants you share with that other person, entrusting them to be able to fulfil those needs and wants and achieve a level of intimacy, exchange of energy and an experience you wouldn't find with anyone else.

Therefore what is the most important to me is the mind of the person I am with, and knowing that mind. Isn't it this knowledge that makes you want to give up control and submit in the first place? Or to assume control, ownership, and have them place your needs and wants first in the relationship?

It's like with experience, there's a whole 'human' factor which tends to get overlooked in these sorts of discussions. I mean, what value is experience (other than technical knowledge) for when we are in this situation, and developing a new relationship or dynamic we are starting in the exact same place as always - the very beginning. The process might be similar, the activities and rituals even pretty much the same, but the two people involved are different and for me it's the people involved who define the dynamic more than anything else.

We are all human, we all change with time, we grow, we learn, we mature, we develop, and so does our relationships. Time changes and influences our needs and our wants, our preferences and also our limits.

I think what baffles me more than anything is how some people can talk about limits as if they are set in stone when to me in actual fact they are variable and fluid (why else would people talk about 'pushing' and 'stretching' them?). I can talk about my own limits as relevant to here and now and what is today. These limits will probably be the same next week (they might not) but beyond that I cannot say. However if something changes the following week I'm perfectly willing to let those know who need to know.

This comes to the other issue I have with limits.. I feel that working to establish predefined limits closes down opportunities for communication, which is something I feel is important for any relationship or dynamic.

Of course here I haven't been writing about stuff like kids, animals, death, etc because this isn't an issue connected with BDSM to me, but with morality. And when you come up against a moral principle, which is usually fixed, given the choice between engaging in that activity and death I will always choose the latter.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 1:32:57 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC

Keep in mind my real world experience is HIGHLY limited and also a limited sample set based upon the types of folks I would choose as friends. I just can't imagine any one of them making a yes/no decision on the basis of that statement alone without at least some follow-up questioning. Sure, there are the "limits" and "no limits" groups. I just don't see the discussions that I'm in when I'm in people's living rooms being quite that boolean.

Are you sure you want to stick with that?


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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 1:45:28 PM   
JeffBC


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Status: offline 		Well, no I don't seeing as you're virtually coming out and saying I've got it wrong. I'm the first to get off a sinking ship :)

This is why I normally like to keep my answers personal to me and Carol. So I'll leave it at, "It'd be a pretty short list of stuff someone could say that would have me make a yes/no decision without some follow-up Q&A to at least make sure I understand what they are saying and why."

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 2:39:44 PM   
Whenready


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Status: offline 		IrishMist: Which brings me back to the original question.
WHY do we walk away from prospective partners simply because they state 'I have no limits'.

I can only speak FOR ME. For me, someone who has no limits (either because they genuinely don't, or because they haven't thought about it) is not likely to be someone with whom I would want a relationship. In the first instance, I DO have limits, so someone with no limits is (in my mind) not likely to be compatible. In the second instance, if they haven't thought about it, then again they are unlikely to suit me, as I like someone who DOES think. In either instance, I MIGHT be walking away from the best sub ever, but I'll never know.

Why do we not, instead, take the time to discuss WHAT each of us considers to be limits and why we see them that way?
The honest answer is: life's too short. That person has already indicated a big barrier TO ME. Why the barrier is there is irrelevant. The only circumstance I can think of where there migt be wiggle room would be talking ABOUT D/s to someone new, including a general discussion of limits and safety, sometimes using a checklist. In that circumstance, I would not be considering them as MY sub, but debating issues.

As usual, I reserve the right to be wrong.

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 2:39:50 PM   
KatyLied


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quote:



I have missed seeing you on this side. Nice to have you drop by


Hey....hope all is well in your world!

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 2:58:14 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishMist

quote:

In truth, I think that doesn't often happen in the real world. My general observation is that the internet lives in blacks & whites. People in the real world deal in shades of grey.

Ok, this is one of those statements that has me just wanting to say WTF. Instead, I am going to step back and like the statement made by LadyPact, I am going to think on it first

I'll get back to you lol.

Ok. I think I have a clearer picture of what you were saying.


Can I ask you something personal? Please feel free to tell me to mind my own business if you feel like it.

The friends you mention...do any of them participate to the degree that you and your young lady do..or at all? Or are they just friends who happen to know what you do?


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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 2:59:23 PM   
IrishMist


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quote:

Hey....hope all is well in your world

It's bumping along lol. The chickee is in Scotland for college and the house is way too quiet for my liking

Edited to add:
Blah...double quote

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 3:40:09 PM   
LadyPact


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JeffBC
Well, no I don't seeing as you're virtually coming out and saying I've got it wrong. I'm the first to get off a sinking ship :)

This is why I normally like to keep my answers personal to me and Carol. So I'll leave it at, "It'd be a pretty short list of stuff someone could say that would have me make a yes/no decision without some follow-up Q&A to at least make sure I understand what they are saying and why."
Well, considering that I said it earlier on the thread....

While your list of BDSM type friends is shorter than other types, I'd find it more likely that to be the group who would do so. It's also one of the reasons that it's different for you.

When you see the word "partner" around these threads, you think life partner. Those of us who play casually or without a relationship commitment are more likely to think play partner. It's a different mindset. It also sets off more warning bells when "no limits" is the response.

There's nobody that I'm meeting at a play party or receive an email from here that I'm going to sit down and decide to get their interpretation of what that phrase means to them. I'm not looking at their vanilla selves and their relationship goals. I'm not trying to guide them like D said above. I'm not dating them. That type of response would tell Me that we are either a) incompatible on an experience level of BDSM, b) incompatible regarding emotional intimacy in certain kinds of play, or c) may be one of those folks who will turn the tables once they have done a "no limits" scene with someone they just met.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

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RE: Just an issue of communication? - 8/19/2012 3:49:57 PM   
kalikshama


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quote:

I shared a few drinks with a woman who had the ends of two of her fingers and one toe lopped off by gardening shears by her husband because he was sadistic and she was his slave to do with what he wished.


Were they courting you for a third?

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