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RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 4:21:26 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

However, there does appear to be a link between malignant narcissism and serial killers.

As a case in point, ABB was diagnosed with malignant narcissism and dyssocial personality disorder in the second forensic report. The first report concluded paranoid schizophrenia on grounds that made me question whether the "professionals" involved might be candidates for inpatient care themselves, as quite frankly that would be the most benign interpretation of the work they did. Hardly a glorious moment in the history of forensic psychiatry up here, that. I'm glad they got some qualified people in there to clean things up a bit.

Spree killer, rather than serial killer, but still a nice example.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 41

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 5:27:47 PM

xssve

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83
Would anyone who knows a bit about it be able
to give me their thoughts on whether there could
be a proclivity for a Sadistic Narcissist to develop
D/s relationships.

I don't know anything about it, but I would guess that Sadistic Narcissists are more likely to develop D/s relationships.

ETA: The wikipedia link you provided doesn't define sadistic narcissism. However, there does appear to be a link between malignant narcissism and serial killers.

"Malignant narcissism is highlighted as a key area in the study of mass murder, sexual, and serial murder." (From the wikipedia on "malignant narcissicm".)

Pam

Possibly, but violence is not typically a symptom of narcissism, it's more likely to manifest as mental cruelty of various sorts, violence is more often associated with psychopathy.

Hare is a more reliable source for this stuff, and while narcissism may well be a factor in psychopathy and sexual psychopathy, mass murderer, sexual, and serial murder is psychopathy, not just narcissism.

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RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 5:57:49 PM

xssve

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http://www.cracked.com/article_19961_7-studies-that-only-proved-that-scientists-are-perverts.html?wa_user1=5&wa_user2=Science&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=yesincite

See #5.

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Post #: 43

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 6:34:16 PM

PonyGroom

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There is some overlap in criteria between that the DSM currently calls Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) and what the DSM currently calls Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD).

In the DSM-V, due out in 2013, we are likely to see a change in the Personality Disorders area of the DSM. There is already a lot of confusion. I don't think the new version is going to make things any easier to explain.

"Malignant Narcissism" might not be what you are looking for. Instead, you might be looking for sociopathy, psychopathy, or ASPD.

I've read Hare (Without Conscience), Stout (The Sociopath Next Door), and a number of academic works on personality disorders, but I focused on ASPD, psychopathy, sociopathy, and the history of the diagnosis of what Cleckley called "moral insanity", not NPD.

Do we have Narcissists in the BDSM scene? Of course. Do they do a lot of damage? No, not until they get into leadership positions. They are much better at serving themselves than they are at serving others, so that causes a lot of havoc.

The sociopaths, even when sub-clinical, do a lot of damage in the BDSM subculture because they see life as a power game. Hare, Stout, Babiak and others tell us that sociopaths are attracted to social situations where credentials are easier to fake, the work is less, they can affect a grandiosity and obtain worship at their whim. Does this sounds like the impeccably dressed dom at your local munch who hangs a whip on his belt but doesn't know how to use it? Does he lie whenever his lips move? Does he brag? Drop names? If someone calls him on his dishonesty, does he proclaim himself the victim and learn nothing from his errors?

Back in March I wrote a pamphlet about the impact sociopaths have on the BDSM and Leather scenes. The text is here:
http://plkstables.org/sits

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Post #: 44

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 6:43:34 PM

PonyGroom

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

Would anyone who knows a bit about it be able
to give me their thoughts on whether there could
be a proclivity for a Sadistic Narcissist to develop
D/s relationships.

I'm not in school and this isn't for anything besides
my own knowledge.

-ARIES

Narcissist and sociopath dominants often find co-dependents who tag themselves as submissive.

In Millon's taxonomy,
http://millon.net/taxonomy/summary.htm

Take a look at the Anti-social types. Do you mean "Malevolent"?

Or maybe, among the Narcissistic, you mean the "Amorous" sub type?

I don't think Millon has this worked out right, but I am not a professional. I think the professionals think he does not have this worked out right and in the next few years, we are going to see the model he is using here fade.

For example, neurobiological research has told us that there is a biological basis for conscience in that most of us can feel genuine remorse when they learn they have harmed others, while some cannot. Yet this is not reflected in Millon's model, which was crafted before the research was done.

Meanwhile, Millon's model can help us communicate about sets of characteristics.

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Post #: 45

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 6:58:51 PM

ARIES83

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Would it be accurate to say that a
"Psychopathic, Malignant Narcissist" would suggest
the processes they have are driven by impulses and
disregard for the effects of those impulses on
others?

And would a "Sociopathic, Malignant Narcissist" be
more cold, dispassionate and mechanical personality?

Both would have the mechanisms for being perceived
as a normal, even exceptional person?
Both would have a very narrow or non-existent
emotional spectrum?

I'm not posing my knowlage as a question, thought it
may read that way, I'm struggleing with the mass of
material and trying to really strengthen my
understanding of this.
Like Aswad said back there, I'm really not on solid
ground yet.

What are some other conditions which would overlap
somewhat with "borderline sociopathy" and
"borderline malignant narcissism"?

-Aries

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Post #: 46

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 7:00:37 PM

ARIES83

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Pony, thanks! It will take me a while to really
consider all that stuff but it looks very helpful!

-Aries

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Post #: 47

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 7:01:56 PM

xssve

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Just pointing out that persons suffering from NPD, per se, are not typically considered violent, and it's a poor predictor for violent offenses, or course, not even all psychopaths are violent.

Corporate narcissism may well result in indirect violence, but the goal there is usually to pad out the quarterly report, not necessarily specifically to induce suffering.

And, the attempts to rationalize it, as you often hear form the right for example, intimating that the victims somehow deserved it, indicates at least a knowledge of right and wrong and some frisson of guilt, whereas a psychopath just doesn't give a shit.

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Post #: 48

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 7:09:39 PM

xssve

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Further, the narcissists self aggrandizement typically camouflages a highly fragile ego, it's a compensating device, whereas the psychopath, again, typically has little use for the opinion of others, possibly with some exceptions.

Narcissism is an emotional/psychological disorder, whereas psychopathy involves actual physical differences in brain structure, brain damage - it's a physical/medical disorder.

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Post #: 49

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 7:42:45 PM

ARIES83

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ARIES83

What are some other conditions which would overlap
somewhat with "borderline sociopathy" and
"borderline malignant narcissism"?

-Aries

Anyone got know some?

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Post #: 50

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 8:33:05 PM

xssve

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I don't know that "borderline sociopathy" or "borderline malignant narcissism" are recognized disorders, or for that matter "sadistic narcissism", it's just a sadistic narcissist.

There may be some correlation, but I think to say either that "all sadists are narcissists", or conversely, "all narcissists are sadists" would be a false syllogism, so we can only guess at what the correlation might be - sadism would seem to have more in common with psychopathy, but again, there are relatively mild and benign forms of sadism, at least contrasted with the De Sadean examples themselves, patently psychopathic, as compared to vigorously spanking somebodies butt till they cry, which can be pretty dramatic, it just ain't exactly murder.

In short, they would seem to be related but separate things, which would take more time to sort out than this.

Narcissism is fairly common, see "cultural narcissism", but there are degrees, "malignant narcissism" is presumably he most pathological - "borderline" itself is another thing entirely, borderline schizophrenia, but I assume you mean borderline as in "the point where one thing becomes something else".

But again, narcissism is psychological condition, sociopathy and psychopathy are medical conditions, so I don't know that it's necessarily a continuum, although they can both be induced by roughly the same stimuli (or lack thereof), so there is no reason to suspect they do not overlap, or that a severe enough psychological condition cannot overlap with a less severe medical one.

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/10/2012 8:40:19 PM >

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RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 8:34:36 PM

Winterapple

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Well, there's borderline personality disorder
which is controversial and is currently
undergoing a lot of review in defining it.
There are also different forms of BPD
just as there are different forms of
schizophrenia. The old school definition
if BPD put it above the personality
disorders in severity but beneath
schizophrenia hence it was on the
border between the two. But that
definition is I believe being reevaluated
by the medical establishment.

I don't think narcissism in of itself
however strong is likely to produce
someone who is unable to tell right
from wrong or is a physical threat to
others. Mental cruelty yes, but probably
not a murderer or a rapist. There would
I think need to be psychopatholgy in
the mix of those that harm others to
that extent. I would also think the
personality disorder most likely to
produce a violent person is anti social
personality disorder. It's the basic
criminal profile more than a narcissist.

There are aspects of D/s relationships
that would seem to be very appealing
to a narcissist. Being looked up to and
not questioned for example. They could
find willing partners in submissive's who
have hysterical personality disorders
especially ones prone to masochism.
And when they get together you have
have the perfect couple from hell.

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Post #: 52

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 8:42:03 PM

xssve

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I dunno, it sounds like half the marriages in my parents generation.

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Post #: 53

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/10/2012 8:57:58 PM

Winterapple

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There are degrees of hell and the couples
they produce. Some are just annoying and
draining to be around others have
more twisted and destructive relationships.

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Post #: 54

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/11/2012 1:15:32 AM

MariaB

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I was with a sociopath for many years. He wasn't just any old sociopath, he was my sociopath, meaning one trait doesn't fit all. The one big thing he had in common with all other sociopaths was, he didn't have a conscience. Good brains are a very important component for a successful sociopath because like a chameleon they can mold themselves into anything you desire or need them to be. They are the masters of manipulation.
I have studied sociopathic behavior so that I could understand what happened to me and why and I would suggest that anyone who suspects (from certain behaviors or just good darned intuition) that their partner or friend is showing sociopathic behavior to study and learn about the condition.

The BDSM scene is a dream come true to a sociopath.

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Post #: 55

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/11/2012 6:52:28 AM

xssve

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I would just caution against seeing one in every corner: if something is not right about your relationship then you might well have stumbled into one, but most people seem to need to do that once at least before they know what to look for.

I for instance fit many of Cleckley's list of traits of the morally insane, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a sociopath.

< Message edited by xssve -- 9/11/2012 6:53:22 AM >

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Post #: 56

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/11/2012 10:24:32 AM

gungadin09

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve
...violence is not typically a symptom of narcissism, it's more likely to manifest as mental cruelty of various sorts, violence is more often associated with psychopathy.

Hare is a more reliable source for this stuff, and while narcissism may well be a factor in psychopathy and sexual psychopathy, mass murderer, sexual, and serial murder is psychopathy, not just narcissism.

My impression is the personality disorder stuff often comes in clusters. In other words, people often have more than one.

Pam

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RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/13/2012 2:23:22 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xssve

I for instance fit many of Cleckley's list of traits of the morally insane, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a sociopath.

A checklist is something dramatically different from an actual description. It's a bit like why one can't just go memorizing symptoms and diseases to become a doctor. Until you've encountered actual cases, a list of symptoms borders on being worse than worthless for anything that isn't exceedingly common. This is because it's the cases that teach you what those descriptions actually mean. We don't want to be psychochondriacs (is that a real word? if not, it should be), so it comes down to experience.

I've met some sociopaths. Occasionally in very unpleasant circumstances. Completely different animal. I'm not certain I could articulate it so someone without experience with sociopaths could recognize them, but there's no way you wouldn't recognize them if you do have experience with sociopaths. Some are good enough at hiding the traits that it takes a while to notice them (among other things because we don't go around looking for sociopaths), but I'm inclined to think they're unmistakable given some exposure to them.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 58

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/13/2012 2:32:33 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

My impression is the personality disorder stuff often comes in clusters. In other words, people often have more than one.

The problem is that it's hard to distinguish between comorbidity of diseases and covariability of diagnoses.

If someone has a problem with one faculty, that faculty is generally important to several aspects of functioning, which means you end up with several diagnoses unless there's a one to one correspondence between the diagnoses and the problems. Often, there isn't, particularly in the psychiatric field. We can't wait for our understanding of the human mind and its social context to get to a level where we can pinpoint the problems, so we try to categorize what we know according to what problems we can observe and what tends to work for those problems.

People with personality disorders tend to have one or a few underlying causes that result in several problems in several areas.

At least, that's been my impression.

IWYW,
— Aswad.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

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Post #: 59

RE: Sadistic-Narcissism - 9/13/2012 2:46:24 AM

ARIES83

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What do you look for?
Assuming you can't see through the facade.

-Aries

* regarding picking out a good sociopath*

< Message edited by ARIES83 -- 9/13/2012 2:49:38 AM >

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