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RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:00:41 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
There is greater potential for an irresponsible Dom to cause emotional or physical damage to submissive than the other way around. 


While I agree with the physical aspect, I'm not so sure I agree about the emotional one. I would have to think that there are an awful lot of Doms out there who have invested a great deal of time, effort and emotion in someone....just to find out down the road that that person was not the slave they claimed to be and really should have self identified more along the lines of bottom. I think that Dominants can get just as hurt emotionally....I just think that they are less likely to be vocal about it when it occurs.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:03:17 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelface183

Whatever happened to "You're just not my type"?


I think the whole culture of labels cultivates that attitude, which again is a little silly because there aren't any definitive definitions.

Unless there is an official dom or sub registry somewhere that can officially label someone a dom or sub, the titles are meaningless except between people in a relationship.

Not many women aren't my type though most women wouldn't call me their type.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 6/13/2006 8:04:02 AM >

(in reply to angelface183)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:07:47 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: angelface183
quote:

   Cuz it's ok to bash men.



quote:

Is it because as LA said that bashing men is acceptable?  


quote:

they can take it.    


quote:

My only thought is that people tend to assume a male ought to be able to handle bashing; if you bash a female, that's considered ungentlemanly and abusive...


Ahhhhh....and us delicate little flower sub and slave types would crumble under the scrutiny....lol.....I believe you are all right to an extent as far as that being the perception and part of the reason....I don't believe that we are the weak, sensitive creatures that would justify that reasoning however.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 6/13/2006 8:09:27 AM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to angelface183)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:12:59 AM   
TolerableCruelty


Posts: 447
Joined: 2/4/2005
Status: offline 		Its rather simple in My opinion....

Females, as a whole, are better at manipulation of emotions. A "dom" player may be able to get inside the girls head in order to achieve his end result, but its usually hard for him to pull the wool over "everyones" eyes. A poor defenseless sub, however... like most girls... have learned that as soon as you squirt a couple of tears, everyone comes running with tissues and hugs and reassures them that its not their fault. That is what makes the guy out to be the big bad wolf, so to speak. The girls can manipulate crowds easier and get mass sympathy/empathy... and don't even get Me started on the "White Knights" that come charging to the rescue when one of the "poor defenseless subbies" get emotionally assaulted.

I, for one, look at their personal actions first... both dom and sub....as well as words, demeanor, etc.... before I make My judgement call on them. This of course depends on the medium of communication, as well. Its a lot easier to tell who is submissive in person at a face to face gathering, rather than by trying to decipher some girls venomous rants on here.... however, the written word is usually a good indication of ones nature.
(I say usually... as there are always exceptions to the rule, and one post does not make or break a persons character)

T.R.
*edited for spelling*

< Message edited by TolerableCruelty -- 6/13/2006 8:15:03 AM >

_____________________________

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I'm sorry if I've offended you.... but maybe you needed to be offended

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RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:23:12 AM   
findmedaddy


Posts: 254
Joined: 5/18/2006
From: Maine
Status: offline 		In some cases, it seems like "he's not a dom" is ok because it's the other self-proclaimed doms saying it. I've corresponded with several doms here, and most (not all, but most) have told me at one point or another that *all* the others are wannabes. Gets a little confusing. I just hope I can see "the real thing" (the one for me, no matter how domly someone else may think he is) if he comes along.

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:27:36 AM   
Tikkiee


Posts: 1099
Joined: 4/6/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

In reading the PC thread that is on the boards I began pondering over an observation that I have made for some time. It seems that it is rather common to see a response on the boards to a submissive or slave who is asking about an experience or potential mate that is along the lines of "He's not a Dom"....or "He sounds like a wannabe or an HNG"....or "Just because he calls himself a Dom or Master doesn't mean he is one". This seems to be rather accepted and generally doesn't raise a lot of questions or flames from others.

So if this is okay....why then is it that if someone even ELUDES to the fact that someone may not be a submissive or slave it generally starts a bashfest?

Is it because the criteria for the roles of Dominant/Master is clearer? Is it because we feel that Dominants/Masters have to be more evolved in their roles at the onset and that the positions of sub/slave have more flexibility and can be adapted to with time under the direction of a Dominant or Master? Is it because we feel there are actual qualifications to be met for Dominant/Master but none really for submissive/slave?

I am not looking to get into the definitions of the labels or what your own personal criteria is for any of these roles, so PLEASE don't respond that way.

I am sure this will make some people angry, but here goes.
 
A general feeling I get sometimes is that Masters/Doms, because of their 'position' ( and yes, I know that is a poor choice of word ), are a bit more able to 'take the harsh criticism' that we lay on them. That simply because they are Masters and Dominants, they are somehow more capable at handling being 'bashed'.
And yet, slaves and submissives, are somehow more delicate, and have to be protected and defended.
 
Just a general feeling that I get when reading those kind of threads/posts.

_____________________________

~~@ cass @~~

(in reply to mistoferin)
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RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:34:14 AM   
LadyHugs


Posts: 2299
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Dear mistoferin, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
It is my belief that 'labels' and 'titles' were often bestowed by peers and the 'circle/network' of individuals were a lot smaller.  But, now days the internet offers a different venue, whereas in my early days in the lifestyle it was face to face. 
 
However, there are certain measures and or standards which in most general of terms constitutes a "master" in their respective roles.
 
One is, can an individual practice what they preach.  Another, are they consistant and or reliable.  In addition, it is attitude and behavior that would be best associated with a fair and judicious individual, to which does not act on emotion but on facts, knowledge and skills.
 
I am also aware that there is a difference between a Controller and a Dominant.  A Dominant is a positive influence and uses positives as to inspire the submissive/slave.  A Controller uses fear, threats, negatives and the like.  These Controllers are insecure and need to shove others under as to feel more elevated.  Of course, the slave can't grow in such conditions.  So, there is a difference in which slaves/submissives that can operate in such.  Slaves serve best, when they want to do service and not because they 'have to.'
 
Slaves and submissives choose what they tolerate and what they won't.
The dominant has choices also.
 
However, someone needs to master themselves first before attempting to Master another.  It never ending process for slave and or Master really.  But, the idea is to find happiness.  Serving because you want to, not because you have to.  Accepting service, even to the point of being extremely patient as a slave fetches a soda or whatever, when you could have done so long time ago.  Feeding each other is what we seek.  Capatability is the struggle.
 
Indeed, there are those who just seek kinky sex in a role.  Some just haven't found themselves.  Some have.
 
I do agree, that there really needs to be a way to express such standards without being insulting.  For those who are new, they should not be exposed to the ugly side of BDSM and D/s as much as they have been for the last ten years.  For those who stumble, fall and such--is it really necessary for others to rub it in? -- I say no.  I rather think on how they might not fall or stumble next time. 
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs
 

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:35:25 AM   
Lashra


Posts: 4900
Joined: 2/9/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Cuz it's ok to bash men. We've set up a lot of those ideals in our modern society.

It's also a social thing- women usually put up a front of supporting eachother as a group, which can often entail hanging a man out to dry, and they feel no need or desire to build a solidarity with men, so they are ok with calling men out.

As well, we like to make the doms as the active ones with the subs as the passive ones. A lot of times doms are portrayed as wild crazy monsters with only the merits of safe calls and SSC keeping them in check. So it's easier and safer to demonize the "active bad guys" rather than to perhaps examine one's own choices and active participation.


I would also add that is part of us trying to distance ourselves from being associated with those whom we consider dangerous or players or "not real" or whatever.

I don't see it as a gender thing though because I've read women called gold-diggers and users instead of doms too. I also have read folks saying "not a submissive" or "not a slave" when folks complain.

Have you noticed that its when folks complain about things not going right for them? I can't recall a thread where someone said things were great and wasn't asking for advice where others replied with the "not a" comments.

I have to agree with you, I don't think its so much a gender type thing. I've seen plenty of Dom's complain about their subs, but the notable difference is they usually do it in chatrooms which are maledom or Dom oriented. There seems to be an aversion to placing a message on a public board and leaving it. Any subs that happen to be in the room usually don't say a word, at least that has been my observation.

I have pondered however that perhaps its generally more acceptable for a sub to be asking questions about a potential Dom/me because perhaps they are viewed as requiring protection/advice moreso than the reverse? I am not saying this is my view, but generally since most subs are females seeking male Doms, that when they ask advice it does kick in that protective streak that most Dom/mes have. So not only does their brethern subs come to the rescue but also the Dom/mes who feel this need to protect/aid.  Just a thought.

~Lashra

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:36:52 AM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		Subs/slaves are more intent on finding someone they consider to be a Dominant/Master, as opposed to some guy that just wants to get laid (HNG).  I think there isnt much flaming on the "she's not a sub" thing because most men dont really care if a girl is a sub or not.   Alot of men dont care what catagory a female fits into and would be more than happy to be contacted by a "horney net girl". 

In other words if a sub is talking to a man who presents himself as a Master then she later finds out that he's just a guy who wants a piece of ass and doesnt really know jackshit about being in a Ds relationship, she then cries "he's not a Master".  She will then dump him and trash him to the community.  On the other hand, if a man is talking with a girl who identifies as submissive, but then she  turns out to be just some chick who wants to suck a cock, chances are he's not going to be complaining that  "she's not really a sub". 

I, of course am not speaking about all men. 

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:38:20 AM   
MrDiscipline44


Posts: 1776
Joined: 1/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Cuz it's ok to bash men.  We've set up a lot of those ideals in our modern society. 

It's also a social thing- women usually put up a front of supporting eachother as a group, which can often entail hanging a man out to dry, and they feel no need or desire to build a solidarity with men, so they are ok with calling men out.

As well, we like to make the doms as the active ones with the subs as the passive ones.  A lot of times doms are portrayed as wild crazy monsters with only the merits of safe calls and SSC keeping them in check. So it's easier and safer to demonize the "active bad guys" rather than to perhaps examine one's own choices and active participation.
I agree with Lucky here. It's become way too socially acceptable to bash men and make them out to be the bad guy then it is for women to own up to their role in the failure of the relationship.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 8:43:42 AM   
peterK50


Posts: 433
Joined: 1/12/2006
Status: offline 		If a man says he's a Dom that's good enough for me. In society I accept people for what they say they are until they prove different.

(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:03:22 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		In general I will admit I DO tend to be somewhat harsher on fellow Doms. Anyone can wear any lable they choose, however if they want me to respect them as actualy being what they claim to be then I need to see some indication that they live upto that lable.

That holds just as true with Dommes, male subs and female subs..... however with fellow Doms, they are labling themself as part of the same 'group' as myself... and I am a snob! I have high standards for myself and yes, damnit, I expect others to at least be trying to reach similar standards else I certainly won't respect them for the lable they wear.

Then there is how I expect fellow Doms to handle critisism.... I am at my most gentle (Unless I see some reason not to be) with a female sub... yep I'm old fashioned, I'm chauvanistic and whilst I have known some very strong women, I DO automaticaly make more effort to cushion things when dealing with a woman. After 25 years dealing with subs I do the same with them.... Therefor male subs and Dommes also rarely get both barrels if they piss me off.

Male Doms, if they can't handle it, tough. I expect no quarter, ask for no 'gentleness' and dish it out in the same manner as I'd expect to be on the recieving end if I'd pissed them off!

I don't give a toss what 'society' deems acceptable, I'm just talking about ME here


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:04:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
Perhaps there is less tolerance for one who has the responsibililty of guiding and managing another human being but does not do so responsibly.  There is greater potential for an irresponsible Dom to cause emotional or physical damage to submissive than the other way around. 

I disagree with that completely.  The potential for damage is the same on all sides. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to ownedgirlie)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:12:39 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra
I have to agree with you, I don't think its so much a gender type thing.

I agree with you and Tammy Jo- there are more issues than just the gender ones (like the "demonize the easy target" motivation).

I'll also throw out the idea of supply/demand (which I think TC mentioned).  How often do we see subs wear their crown of submission, making doms leap through endurances tests to "prove their worth of my gift"?  Subs have a LOT of power in the courtship process- and so weighing the label of a "sucky dom" on someone is an easy and natural step to make.

BTW- the inverse of this process is the "references" system, which is just as flawed and just as much a matter of popularity as the "not a dom!" issue is.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:14:21 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I agree. AND so many self-proclaimed subs/slaves are bottoms...nothing else. But it seems okay to say it out loud in relation to the TOPS....but the roof comes crashing down if we even imply it about the bottoms. Odd double standard I think.

Doesn't this go along with the thread we had about calling something "JUST" something as a degrading comment?  Or "real" or "true"?

Someone who is "just a top" to someone, might just be the perfect master to another.

But I agree with you on the double standard point.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:24:59 AM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline
quote:

I've seen a lot of guys who see D/s as an easy way to get laid. They have the ability to abuse the power that comes with the title. Let's face it, a submissive can't demand that a Dominant get down on their knees and perform oral sex.

It's a perfect breeding ground for predators, (not as in rape, but as in "taking advantage of").

I agree with this and add that a typical manipulative tactic used by predators and trolls (who are just too clueless to put on a good enough act to be predators) is to play the "You're not a real sub" card. Seems that gets used so often that it has become a hot button phrase that discredits someone who may use it rather than the target.

After reading the comments, it seems there is a gender difference defining when these criticisms come out. "You're not a real sub" is used out of frustration when a guy can't convince a gal to submit to him, and "he wasn't a real dom" is used by the gals after a relationship fails. Just an observation, but I don't recall seeing such comments with the time lines reversed.I dunno what to make of that, but it is interesting.

(in reply to OsideGirl)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:27:57 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I agree. AND so many self-proclaimed subs/slaves are bottoms...nothing else. But it seems okay to say it out loud in relation to the TOPS....but the roof comes crashing down if we even imply it about the bottoms. Odd double standard I think.

Doesn't this go along with the thread we had about calling something "JUST" something as a degrading comment?  Or "real" or "true"?

Someone who is "just a top" to someone, might just be the perfect master to another.


No it really isn't. When I say that someone is a bottom, nothing else ......nothing else as in no other traits or characteristics added in. I am not saying they are "just" an anything. I don't see identifying someone as a bottom as being degrading....or someone identifying as a sub being less than a slave. I don't see that ANY one identifiable role is "less" than any other. I believe that it makes more sense though to identify with whatever is going to most clearly represent who you are.



_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:41:17 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I would also add that is part of us trying to distance ourselves from being associated with those whom we consider dangerous or players or "not real" or whatever.

I don't see it as a gender thing though because I've read women called gold-diggers and users instead of doms too. I also have read folks saying "not a submissive" or "not a slave" when folks complain.

Have you noticed that its when folks complain about things not going right for them? I can't recall a thread where someone said things were great and wasn't asking for advice where others replied with the "not a" comments.

I have to agree with you, I don't think its so much a gender type thing. I've seen plenty of Dom's complain about their subs, but the notable difference is they usually do it in chatrooms which are maledom or Dom oriented. There seems to be an aversion to placing a message on a public board and leaving it. Any subs that happen to be in the room usually don't say a word, at least that has been my observation.

I have pondered however that perhaps its generally more acceptable for a sub to be asking questions about a potential Dom/me because perhaps they are viewed as requiring protection/advice moreso than the reverse? I am not saying this is my view, but generally since most subs are females seeking male Doms, that when they ask advice it does kick in that protective streak that most Dom/mes have. So not only does their brethern subs come to the rescue but also the Dom/mes who feel this need to protect/aid. Just a thought.

~Lashra


I think we have a double standard in BDSM that isn't based on gender or sex but on role.

I do book reviews and I notice that the books with a submissive or bottom audience spend a lot of time talking about being safe, figuring out what you want internally, and how to deal with your emotions.

I do not see that much for tops or dominants on these same issues though franky I think we on that side of the equatation really need to consider and work on these same things.

I think its also much harder for a top to get involved in things because as a culture we expect a top to know what to do.

In some communities this was/is dealt with by expecting everyone to start on the bottom but I personally don't think you learn how to be a top from bottoming really. Feeling a flogger on your back does not show you how to hold it, how to swing it and how to gauge the reactions of the person being flogged for example.

On the other side, some folks really don't want submissives who have very much experience because they fear or have had some who are too stuck in other dominant's ways of doing things.

I think I'm wandering now.


_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to Lashra)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 9:48:22 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I have maybe once stated this (it was last night on a different thread, and it was to someone that professed she did not have a dominant bone in her body herself.. she also loves dominated in the bedroom but wants male subs to "serve" her). I did call this one a bottom. That is a rare thing for me to do.

I think people define themselves generally. I do not care if they call themselves anything or nothing at all. I do not know why people think it is ok to say a dom is a poser, I do not call names like that. I am more likely to point out behavior.

I cannot answer your question I guess.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 6/13/2006 9:49:16 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:03:53 AM   
aellea


Posts: 91
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		once i met a "dom" he was good at talk so we met... after several meets where we progressed slowly (i was impressed) we adjourned to the bedroom.  on his way home later, we were speaking on the phone, he had said something earlier and i was asking for definition... his comment was he wasn't a dom but knew how to walk the talk so to speak... it got him more sex with women,submissives/slaves.  he said vanilla women were a bitch to get sex from as their laundry list of hoops to jump through was a pain. 

this is just another reason to not trust men in general.  as my profile says or something somewhere does... you approach me sexually, you are outta here!  and they wonder why?

(in reply to mistoferin)
Profile   Post #: 40
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