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RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:07:21 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I think labeling is where the problem lies. Everyone has their own definition and we will never reach agreement and there will always be arguments about it. But it does make for some lively (and silly) discussions.

I disagree.... I think that it's people's inability to accept and/or tolerate that we have Different definitions to our various labels. No definition being better or worse, Just Different! To many with the thought there is only "One univeral Way, the way they do it" instead of "This is My way! and accept others have their way!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KatyLied)

Post #: 41

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:10:49 AM

DominaRava

Posts: 76
Status: offline

I agree, and would dare to add: Where is Domme U anyway? Unless One is in an area with a large and active 'scene', it is difficult, if not impossible, to find a helping hand in discovering Ones self and skills, unless One is prepared to become a 'submissive' for Another. Munches? Please! Go to one as a way of learning or meeting people, and inexperience = submissive, as opposed to wishing to learn. (Again I state in areas that do not have huge training and learning communities.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I think its also much harder for a top to get involved in things because as a culture we expect a top to know what to do.

In some communities this was/is dealt with by expecting everyone to start on the bottom but I personally don't think you learn how to be a top from bottoming really. Feeling a flogger on your back does not show you how to hold it, how to swing it and how to gauge the reactions of the person being flogged for example.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 42

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:25:47 AM

flaswitchmale

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/11/2006
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This is a very good question you posed. I think it has to do with a combination of things. The women putting up a unified front against men, when they don't like what that man says/represents probably has something to do with it. I can't count the number of times I got into a debate with 2-4 women on a topic that I could proove I was right on, yet they all supported a wrong conclusion, simply because the first woman to respond took that point. Honestly, I don't believe those that start bash-fests about the "He's not a master/dom" don't really know what they are talking about. Sure, he may not be what they view as a Dom/Master, but he may be in another's opinion. This is why finding a submissive/slave in the D/s lifestyle is so difficult. Many submissives don't know what they want, what they are, and how they want to be dominated. Then they blame it on the Dom for not providing what they didn't know they wanted. With every sub that I have played with, I always have a long talk with before we start, and write down what they respond to my questions. You would be amazed at what they thought they were into, and what they could actually take (ususally much less than their romanticised fantisies).

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 43

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:28:36 AM

ExistentialSteel

Posts: 676
Joined: 1/18/2005
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The nature of many Doms is that they have to appear superior in all things. The simplest difference of opinion on most anything often flares up into a major war because the worth of the Dom is being threatened by the simple disagreement. It is the attack on the Dom’s own illusion and not about the subject of the debate.

I have seen fights start about so many minor things. Often another Dom offers a little more insight into something because he happens to know more, but that threatens the other Dom’s presentation to the subs of being omni scientific, omnipotent or whatever. You seldom hear Doms saying something offered by another may be a good idea. Face it, we are all not equal in our intelligence, knowledge and expertise in every subject known to man.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 44

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:31:20 AM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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Usually when someone states ... "They are not a submissive" or "That is not a Dominant" They give the impression that their specific definition of Dominat or Submissive is the universal one. There is a huge difference in saying..."That is not a submissive" as compared to "You are not what I would consider a submissive as I define it" One needs to listen to the context that it is being said. Are they speakig like their defined label is the universal one, the only one. Or are they just expressing their own personal judgement based on thier own personal definition on a specific label.

I question what is wrong with saying that "I would not consider you a submissive" or I would not consider you a Dominant" when one is speaking on the basis of their own defined label and one can appreciate that it is not a universal statement. There are many on the boards and face to face I do not consider as Dominant/Submissive. But that is not a universal judgement, it is a personal one. Others consider these same individuals as Dominant/Submissive that doesn't make my opinion less valid or my opinion make their opinion less valid.

I never worry about those individuals that don't consider me Dominant or consider my girls as less than submissive. Do they have the golden definition of Dominance or Submission? Not likely, let me know if you ever see one, until then I will be very comfortable and confdent in my evolving understanding of Dominance and Submission. However, I can appreciate that some individuals become rather offended when someone considers them not to be a Dominant or Submissive as the case maybe. I find their lack of confidence and security with their identity to be sad.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 45

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 10:55:09 AM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
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I see a LOT of people say "He’s not a submissive. He’s a wanker. He’s not a slave. He’s a fetishist. He’s not looking for a Mistress. He’s looking for masturbation material."

Which makes me think…
this isn’t an issue of titles (Dominant, submissive).
It’s an issue of gender.

Why is it ok to call males wankers, HNGs, and wannabes.
But for some reason it’s not ok to call females wankers, wannabes, and HNGs?

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 46

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 11:02:12 AM

thetammyjo

Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Proprietrix

I see a LOT of people say "He’s not a submissive. He’s a wanker. He’s not a slave. He’s a fetishist. He’s not looking for a Mistress. He’s looking for masturbation material."

Which makes me think…
this isn’t an issue of titles (Dominant, submissive).
It’s an issue of gender.

Why is it ok to call males wankers, HNGs, and wannabes.
But for some reason it’s not ok to call females wankers, wannabes, and HNGs?

I see folks write about money and doing it only for money when it comes to women a lot. Or marriage, she just wants to get married so she'd not a real sub/dom whatever.

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(in reply to Proprietrix)

Post #: 47

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 11:19:13 AM

meatcleaver

Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I see folks write about money and doing it only for money when it comes to women a lot. Or marriage, she just wants to get married so she'd not a real sub/dom whatever.

I think you will find on many a sub's profile that they are looking for 'the one' or something similar. Now whether you take that to mean marriage or a serious monogamous relationship, it's pretty explicit that D/s or kink in general isn't her only motivation.

(in reply to thetammyjo)

Post #: 48

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 11:30:10 AM

crouchingtigress

Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline

I think it is incredibly arrogant to say the words he/she is not a Dom or sub.

I think it reflects poorly on the person who is making such an assessment.

< Message edited by crouchingtigress -- 6/13/2006 11:47:31 AM >

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(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 49

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 11:33:10 AM

flaswitchmale

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

I see folks write about money and doing it only for money when it comes to women a lot. Or marriage, she just wants to get married so she'd not a real sub/dom whatever.

I think you will find on many a sub's profile that they are looking for 'the one' or something similar. Now whether you take that to mean marriage or a serious monogamous relationship, it's pretty explicit that D/s or kink in general isn't her only motivation.

While this is true, starting a relationship with the expectation of ANYTHING but a relationship is doomed to failure. Your expectations will never be met, because the person you are with, can't have the exact same expectations as you have. Marriage does not change a good relationship. If you had a strong relationship before you were married, after you are married, nothing should change, not one little thing. If you seek marriage because it appears to be more stable (the person you marry will have a more difficult time leaving you), then you are destined for heart break. I fail to understand why one would seek marriage, and make it a demand, when nothing in life is for certian. Sure, the person you find on the net may be single, and they may want to be married some day. But, when you aren't that person, what then? Are they an ass because they misrepresented themselves? Or they just being honest?

(in reply to meatcleaver)

Post #: 50

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 11:53:31 AM

Arpig

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From: Increasingly further from reality
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It is because of the pervasive attitude that a dom is expected to fulfill the submissive's every fantasy, and if he doesn't then he cannot possibly be a real dom.

If you doubt this, just ask any of the dominas on the site how many subs approach them with a veritable shopping list of fantasies they expect to have fulfilled. It isn't all that different for male doms, the wish-list just comes out after the dom makes the initial contact, other than that, the process is pretty much the same.

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 51

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 12:04:29 PM

meatcleaver

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To enter a relationship with the idea this is going to be the one or I expect this relationship to end in marriage is a nonsense so really putting it on a profile I would have thought was nonsense. But then I guess subs get many responses because many of the respondents are hoping for sex or at least that is what i'm led to belive from the threads.

I was merely pointing it out. Since I don't contact subs I don't really care.

(in reply to flaswitchmale)

Post #: 52

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 12:45:13 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
It's also a social thing- women usually put up a front of supporting eachother as a group, which can often entail hanging a man out to dry, and they feel no need or desire to build a solidarity with men, so they are ok with calling men out.

I agree with putting up a front part of your statement, because in my neck of the woods, or hell everywhere I've been, the women tend to be fairly mean to one another (overtly or covertly), in order to impress or get the man or his attention. I tend to initially trust everyone, but if I had to choose one or the other, I would sooner trust a stranger who is a male, than one who is female, because I'm better able to read him.

I believe there are different expectations of dominant vs submissive behavior on the boards and in real life, and maybe you are right about more dominants being called out, but plenty of subs are called out as well, though don't want to rehash negative threads. M

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 53

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 12:53:27 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: flaswitchmale

While this is true, starting a relationship with the expectation of ANYTHING but a relationship is doomed to failure. Your expectations will never be met, because the person you are with, can't have the exact same expectations as you have. Marriage does not change a good relationship. If you had a strong relationship before you were married, after you are married, nothing should change, not one little thing. If you seek marriage because it appears to be more stable (the person you marry will have a more difficult time leaving you), then you are destined for heart break. I fail to understand why one would seek marriage, and make it a demand, when nothing in life is for certian. Sure, the person you find on the net may be single, and they may want to be married some day. But, when you aren't that person, what then? Are they an ass because they misrepresented themselves? Or they just being honest?

This is silly.... "expect only a relationship from a relationship!!"? So I shouldn't expect my girls to have Integrity, Intelligence or Devotion. What I just jump in a relationship and enjoy or endure what is ever there! What about actually having the expectation that there are certain things to exist for the relationship to grow and mature? I would happens to the person that is cheated on..... "OH so sorry did you expect me to be Honest and Faithful? Really you should of only expected to have relationship with me, which you still have for what it's worth" I am sure that would go over rather well don't you think. Fact is..... We all enter relationships with more than the expectation of just having a relationship. The question is are these expectations realistic with the person your trying to have a relationship with. If they are not... well alot of ache is one's future.

This is even sillier.... "nothing should change after one gets married!!"?? The fact is a when someone grows together the bonds get stronger. For some Marriage is a demonstration of this strength. For others they demostrate this strength in other ways besides marriage. A lack of change is Stagnation. Stagnation is not something that is generally healthy for any relationship. Some relationships grow stronger and stronger over time... Even after a Demonstration of Commitment like Marriage or Collaring. For some the Demonstration of commitment is a neccessary aspect for their growth and stability of a relationship, be it Marriage or Collaring.

Finally, I fail to understand or appreciate why one's basic desire and even demand to have Marriage as one the aspects they expect in their intimate relationship has anything to do with the fact that nothing in life is certain.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to flaswitchmale)

Post #: 54

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 12:55:51 PM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
I agree with putting up a front part of your statement, because in my neck of the woods, or hell everywhere I've been, the women tend to be fairly mean to one another (overtly or covertly), in order to impress or get the man or his attention. I tend to initially trust everyone, but if I had to choose one or the other, I would sooner trust a stranger who is a male, than one who is female, because I'm better able to read him.

Absolutely. Anyone who believes women are the "fairer" of the sexes is completely fooled. Women are vicious, conniving and very excellent at being passively nasty to other women while making men believe they are angels (a frequent problem in poly).

Of course not ALL women do this, and that doesn't mean women are evil or the root of all evil or things like that. But I sigh everytime I see a woman patting another woman on the shoulder while at the same time preparing the knife at the back.

_____________________________

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(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 55

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 12:56:47 PM

Wildfleurs

Posts: 1650
Joined: 9/24/2004
From: Connecticut
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

In reading the PC thread that is on the boards I began pondering over an observation that I have made for some time. It seems that it is rather common to see a response on the boards to a submissive or slave who is asking about an experience or potential mate that is along the lines of "He's not a Dom"....or "He sounds like a wannabe or an HNG"....or "Just because he calls himself a Dom or Master doesn't mean he is one". This seems to be rather accepted and generally doesn't raise a lot of questions or flames from others.

So if this is okay....why then is it that if someone even ELUDES to the fact that someone may not be a submissive or slave it generally starts a bashfest?

Because there are more *female* subs/slaves/bottoms on any given weboard or email list.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 6/13/2006 1:00:58 PM >

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(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 56

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 3:27:39 PM

HollyS

Posts: 230
Joined: 1/5/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

I question what is wrong with saying that "I would not consider you a submissive" or I would not consider you a Dominant" when one is speaking on the basis of their own defined label and one can appreciate that it is not a universal statement. There are many on the boards and face to face I do not consider as Dominant/Submissive. But that is not a universal judgement, it is a personal one. Others consider these same individuals as Dominant/Submissive that doesn't make my opinion less valid or my opinion make their opinion less valid.

I have less issue with someone saying "I would not consider you a ______ ..." , because then it's clear the person is speaking only for themselves. It still seems rude and unhelpful in the grand scheme of things -- the person being addressed won't stop calling themselves whatever they want, so often it just degenerates into name calling. This is why I like to use "dominant" and "submissive" as adjectives rather than nouns. It's much easier to say "I don't consider _________ very submissive behavior because..." without totally dismissing the person. People take it better and it gets the point across. Submissive is simply a qualifier/descriptor for another word. Submissive person, submissive feelings, submissive slave, etc...

When I answer a person's question, it's with the hope that they'll listen and consider what I've said. Somehow I don't see that happening with replies that say "You aren't what you think you are." I guess if the goal is simply to speak one's mind, then it doesn't matter and "bashfests" become common. Personal judgements are fine, but as for what form they take on the message boards depends, I guess, on your reasons for posting.

~Holly

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(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 57

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 4:20:19 PM

NastyDaddy

Posts: 957
Joined: 9/8/2004
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It's the yin of the yang... Dom/mes are perceived as strong and unfaltering, while subs/slaves often perceived as raw cuts, to be molded to the Dom/me's pleasure. In that respect, the Dom/me is considered a finished and flawless product fresh from the wrapper, while the sub/slave is sort of a do it yourself (DITY) project, requiring time and patience to create the final product (then wrap it, beat it, and have general mayhem with it, etc)... so one is perceived as created by the user, and the other finished, flawless and gift wrapped.

In fishing terms, I believe the flexibility and need for molding of a sub/slave allows them to wiggle off the ''Not a ___'' hook easier. The Dom/me is not expected to be made/built/molded, they are more latitude challenged and can't wiggle as good.

In most profiles the sub/slave openly states they ''will become" the best possible sub/slave for the Dom/me''

Conversely most Dom/me profiles lay out what their potential sub/slave "will become" or "need to enjoy"

People that change things always get blamed and referred to as dumbasses if they don't hit home runs quite often.

We do this everyday with anything we are displeased or disgruntled with... aka BushCo in regards to our elected prez.

The real no shit answer is that we are bad bad people and should be spanked alot! (and often!)

(in reply to mistoferin)

Post #: 58

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 4:51:43 PM

peterK50

Posts: 433
Joined: 1/12/2006
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One man's ceiling is another man's floor. If he's not Dom enough for you find someone who is, if she's not sub enough then do not collar her. It's not necessary to burn someone to the ground merely because you wern't right for each other or didn't see eye to eye. Have some class, move on. Life is too short to bicker over labels.

(in reply to NastyDaddy)

Post #: 59

RE: Why is "He's not a Dom" okay???? - 6/13/2006 5:13:11 PM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Perhaps there is less tolerance for one who has the responsibililty of guiding and managing another human being but does not do so responsibly. There is greater potential for an irresponsible Dom to cause emotional or physical damage to submissive than the other way around.

Sorry ownedgirlie, but I am going to disagree with you on the emotional part.

I think one part that is easier...yes, I know there has to be a better word...for a submissive in ending the D/s relationship is this idea that most submissives have, mentioned in another thread by a mistress, that dominants are somehow stronger emotionally and therefore, the submissive does not have to be as careful in ending the relationship nor as responsible for checking on the dominant after the eruptions have died down. If a dominant did not check with a submissive at least once after a break-up of a long-term relationship, many submissives...and a few dominants...would view them as callous. But when a submissive does not check, hey...it's O.K., they're a dominant/they can handle it/I prefer a clean break with a dominant.
A dominant is first and foremost a human being; maybe he/she is supposed to have their emotions more in check and most of the ones I've met have but control of your emotions does not necessarily mean stronger in terms of being able to process and move on easier than others.
Speaking as one whose heart got broken badly by a submissive awhile ago...and having a few dominant friends that have been through the same...I'd have to say that it may be true in some cases but not necessarily all.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

Post #: 60

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