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RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 8:22:24 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		juliaoceania,
 
This is too funny...I just read your note to CD and took it to be a reply to my last post here! 
 
Lordy...I'm glad I caught you were NOT talking to me.  But, let me say something, just in case. 
 
That post was NOT meant just to you...in case you are wondering.  Between this thread and the other very similar one; many folks are getting caught up in the simple 'No's' of every day life.  I'm just trying to reiterate again (oh my that's redundant as the dickens, isn't it?) that of course the word MUST be uttered by all submissives from time to time.  Those are not the no's I mean...  It frustrates me no end that I cannot seem to make that clear.
 
Thank you for your posts...you too, have made me think.  Thanks again.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 8:29:31 AM   
MistressOfGa


Posts: 2929
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BreakMeShakeMe

This thread is just to fucking funny... My sub will do this.. my sub would never do that... I won't do this..I won't do that...

None of you know what you will or will not do till it slaps you in the face... so jump off your high and mighty soap boxes....and just admit.. you THINK they will or won't do things... but you really do not know.

And think about this... being unowned... you'll say what ever stikes you to say... specially when there's no ownership involved. What you say to one who owns you...and who doesn't own you... are completely different as well.

Oh and before you jump on my bandwagon about being owned... I'm right where I wanna be right now. I still submit to whom I please.... when I please. And it sure isn't going to be before a bunch of hollier than thou idiots that think they know everything about everyone... and if someone steps out side your so called protocol.. they're dismissed... block me if you want.. make my life easier... I really do not give a flying fuck what you all think of me... I'm not here to please you.. make your life easy.. or hard...so think of this when you find someone else picking.. flaming on you.. because they do not like what you say..and take it outta context and twist all around ... and TRY to make them look better. Because in the long run.. you're showing how much of an idiot you really are...because of beng close minded... not open to others...  and how they go about their lives... that suits them...and the ones they're involved with....

This forum has become one of the most hypocritcal places lately... it's my way or your wrong... bullshit!....
To sit and say what's works for one.. may not work for others... then go along with the.. Oh that is sooooooo wrong.. they're wrong...Down right hypocritical.

I do not have to.. nor will I explain myself and or my actions on these boards to any of you... because none of you matter. Not when it comes to how I live my life..who I submit to..and how..so you seriously need to get over yourselves.

Just still too damn funny....

This is the most honest thing I have seen on the boards lately. Good for you Jessica! Now...tell us how you really feel! lmao

_____________________________





(in reply to BreakMeShakeMe)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 8:34:19 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I read the other thread. I had nothing to post on it. I think that reasonable people can view the world differently. I think I understand what you are saying, but I am a little sensitive about this I suppose because I felt pressured into a NO that I did not want to say, but I had to say it. It was a direct order that I at first ignored, and then I said NO I cannot do this. I am not with this person anymore, but just because I was put in the position to tell him no did not mean I am not a submissive, it meant that we came to a loggerhead in our relationship. We passed that jam and continued on for another year.

I think there is something wrong in a vanilla relationship where someone has to say NO in the manner I believe you are talking about. If boundaries are not respected then it means that there is trouble even for vanillas. There was trouble in that relationship that I had to say NO in, we are not even on speaking terms anymore. So I understand what you meant, I just do not think that it is 1) irretrievable when a sub says no 2)Always her fault and means she is less of a submissive for it.....

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 8:44:53 AM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
... I just do not think that it ... means she is less of a submissive for it.....


EXACTLY!!!  I couldn’t agree with you more. 
 
And, I will add that regardless of that fact…usually, (…at least in my book) a direct refusal to do something as directed totally undermines the D/s relationship and it just can’t help but fail when the ‘dominance’ is ultimately removed.  MOO  YMMV

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 11:47:26 AM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Im sorry I took your words in a way you did not intend them. I read it incorrectly and it was my mistake.


Thank you very much for your apology.  It is noticed and appreciated.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 12:06:08 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		<sees Level lurking and hopes he posts...I always enjoy reading what he has to say>

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 12:59:21 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		<lays a hammer on the table> there has to be many ideals with dealing with the subject of a submissive who says no .... but the eventuality is I have to question a blatant NO to something non life threatening that I have asked ... and if that answer doesn't fall into something anywhere near logic I have to then question the relationship and the Dynamic involved ........
 
 IF I have have to question that is there any real reason to continue the relationship. "If you question someones friendship, are they truely a friend"


_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 1:47:08 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Are you hijacking my thread, Sir?  <smiles>
 
Here's what I think...of course the person was a friend first; so even if the D/s dynamic disolves; why must the friendship?  I have discontinued, for one reason or another, the D/s part of my relationship with someone...but keet them as dear friends yet...
 
<leaves...slowly backing away from that hammer, keeping both eyes on Tamer the entire time>

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 5:19:06 PM   
Proprietrix


Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee
one person posted: 
quote:

I just tell him... no can do... sorry.. got something else instead... if he gets pist.. he gets pist.. and then I tell him.. if it can be done.. you go do it..
Edited to add... it's all in how it' s said. And him knowing reality sometimes stops things from being done. And yes ...while dealing in real life.. reality still steps in and shows it's face too...

IMHO…D/s and M/s mean a great deal; it is not about roll-play for me.  Assuming that IS the case here (and I certainly got that it was with the submissive who originally posted)…I am curious what you all think about the one response (above).

 
Jessica has a type of submission that I do not understand. I read her posts avidly. I think she’s a smart person. I think she’s got a bunch of common sense. And I think she has some pretty cool morals.
But her submission, I can't grasp... yet. Part of the reason I take more time reading her posts, is because I want to understand her. And she isn’t the only one who has a type of submission I can’t put my finger on.
I’ve noticed that those who say things like this, are generally the same crowd of submissives who say "I don’t need punished/disciplined/boundaries set/etc because I’m not a child." And in the end it makes perfect sense. They can say no, in any tone of voice, because there is no recourse in doing so. They have situated themselves in relationships in which their Dominants don’t mete out punishments, so they have the freedom to say "Piss off" or "Do it yourself" without any consequences. It works well for them, because they are absolutely compatible in the first place. We should all be so lucky to find partners with that level of compatibility.
But, it tends to leave me wondering "Then how is this a D/s relationship? Where is the power exchange?"
And it may be there is no power exchange. Perhaps the BDSM in these relationships comes from the kink and play. Or maybe there is. Maybe this is an intense TPE M/s dynamic that I simply am not understanding.

I really don’t know. That’s why I ask questions. It’s a type of submission, and a type of dynamic that I am still learning about. I can’t really say one way or the other whether I even like or dislike it. Since I don’t know anyone real time who has that particular type of submission, the best I can do is sit back, watch, read, learn and try to understand other people.
 
As for me and my relationships…
I expect a certain level of respect from my submissives. I hold them to a higher standard of respect than the typical respect we should all be giving one another in daily life. I even go so far as to expect those honorifics like "Ma’am" to spew from their lips when they speak to me.
I expect my submissives to obey me. If I say to do something and they can’t (for whatever reason), they should approach me politely and respectfully and explain why they can’t. If they have no reason, and simply are unwilling to comply, that tells me that they no longer wish to engage in our power exchange dynamic, and it’s time to either move the relationship in a different direction, or end the relationship.
The "piss off" posturing (which is really the issue I see here more than the use of the word "no") would work for about half a flat second with me. It just wouldn’t fly. I don’t think I could even tolerate it in a vanilla relationship, because it simply comes across as rude. If it happened more than once, I would interpret it as "Please remove the collar. I’m done being your submissive."
 
 
 
 

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 5:20:39 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bearlee

<sees Level lurking and hopes he posts...I always enjoy reading what he has to say>


Oh sure, expect me to come into a thread full of whizzing bullets LOL  
 
Saying no.....
 
I think the process leading up to submission should be exhaustive. Know yourself, and know your potential dominant/submissive. Ask the hard questions, and be satisfied with the answers.
 
"Level, if I submit to you, will you ever expect me to eat a cow patty??" "Not no, but hell no, Sue-sub."
 
If someone submits to me, I expect them to do what I want. If there is a problem, I expect them to speak to me in a respectful way. This may take time, and a good deal of give and take. If they can change my mind, that's fine. If not, and they still can't or won't do what I want, there's a certainly a chance the relationship needs to end.
 
This does not necessarily mean either party is bad. It may simply mean that we were not meant to be together. Or, it can mean one or the other is bringing negativity to the relationship, possibly poisoning it.
 
As for the hard feelings coming up due to this discussion, I will say this: I would love for this topic to be discussed without all the upset, but I know better than to hold my breath waiting for that. Every time this comes up, the shit-storm begins; it has before I ever came to CM, and it'll continue long after I'm gone. What I can do is say how I usually enjoy the posts of people on both sides of this, and hope to continue to do so.
 
Level


(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 5:53:42 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		I have had several relationships that have ended for whatever reason ...... but thru all of it I still maintain a very good friendship with them. and I chat with them on a regular basis ... lovers may come and go but friends will be there with a smile when it's needed   
 
 
 

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 6:08:25 PM   
cynthiamarie


Posts: 205
Joined: 3/11/2005
From: Bluefield, WV, USA
Status: offline 		<sighs and shakes her head>

I really don't understand the need for all the hostility and venting.  Someone else's opinion of us does not DEFINE us. 

I also don't see why being called a bedroom submissive should be taken as an insult.  When I was topping r/t, I didn't call myself someone's Dominant, but their Top.  I had my limits within those relationships, and didn't wish to have it go deeper.  I say "deeper" because the emotional levels of D/s go much deeper for me when someone is really mine and not just a willing Bottom.  I was not afraid to call myself a Top, and if anyone else would think of that term derisively, that was their problem and not mine.  There are many good reasons to remain a bedroom submissive...like having some teenagers at home who would never understand mom's or dad's open submission 24/7. 

We can only be insulted when we allow someone to influence our emotions in that way, and decide that their opinion matters...

When I saw the quote from a post made by BreakMeShakeMe, I did not see it as a way of pointing a finger at her and saying "baaad subbie", but only as an example of what some others' D/s relationships are like.  I know several "brat Doms" who like feisty "lil brat subs", and that's the category I pigeonholed it under; another preference/style.

As for the question that started this thread...
I had to deal with this recently.  It was over a small thing, keeping a food diary...but when he put it off, after promising he would attend to it, and then told me in a "helpful" way that he would go to the doctor instead...  The doctor part is good, and I'm pleased with him over that, but he didn't understand how his non-compliance changed my feelings toward him.  A wall went up for me...I expected my lil one to be following me, but he had wandered off and was getting lost; I was feeling like he wasn't MINE.  Yes, as most of you who have a lot of experience will guess, the relationship is new and fragile.

Btw, some Dommes dissociate too, and have PTSD and trust issues.  <referring to a temporary derailment of this thread> 

I waited for a day, and thought things over carefully before explaining so he could understand.  If he hadn't complied by a reasonable date and time I had set, complete with mild punishments if he decided not to do so (punishments were geared toward teaching him his place in our relationship, not administering corporal punishment), then it would have damaged our relationship and I wouldn't have felt the same for him.

When he submitted in this, he suddenly felt mine again.  The joy, adoration, pride in ownership, and feeling of homecoming made part of me melt, and all the walls came down.  If I had to fight with someone every inch of the way, my trust and pride in them would be damaged and I'd have to wonder why I want submission from someone who simply...never really belonged to me.

There is a huge emotional chasm between causual scenes with subs willing to bottom for me, and someone I'm in an emotional/mental D/s relationship with. 

For the former, SAMming me is expected and a little encouraged...for the latter, if he had to say no to me all the time while being very disrespectful about it, it would affected me on many levels.  (This happened with a sub I had under consideration last year, and I chose to release him.)  One, I'd wonder why he wanted a Domme he didn't have any respect for; two, something would be very wrong between us if I couldn't read my sub and prevent these outbursts; three, I'd need to find out if he feels great pride in being defiant...as it's part of his sense of identity; four, how deep is his fear of authority figures and betrayed trust; five, I would have to find ways to get rid of obstacles in the way of his obedience while deepening his submission to me so he'd want to obey; six...I'd wonder if he had alcohol or drug issues that I'd choose not to deal with. 

I didn't see any need to give an opinion on anything that would belong in a safe word zone.  Safe words are safe words *shrugs* and I respect them.

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 6:37:10 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		 
Even while using a direct quote, I was trying to keep specific of submissives out of the topic and concentrate on the types of submissive behavior.  I guess with that woman adding her two cents worth…that’s a lost cause anyway; no wonder Level sees arrows flying.  <sigh>
 
I’ve watched Level and others disagree passionately…and not resort to cursing and name-calling.  That is why I enjoy reading his posts…and yours Proprietrix…as well as a dozen or more other ‘regulars’ who find it easy to write passionately and ‘disagree’ just as passionately…and remain civil.  Obviously, I must not as good at stating my feelings as some…I’m fairly new to the boards and have been flamed heavily of late.  And…for ‘flaming’, no less!  LOL   I dunno…most of the time when that starts I just withdraw from responding to the person; but by and large, I like reading both positive and negative replies to stuff I post. 
 
I feel you hit the nail on the head, Proprietrix.  I don’t understand that kind of person period, much less her brand of submissiveness.  One here said there are levels…perhaps levels of intensity or passion for D/s; maybe that’s it.  Many times I have heard those who have a more casual interest in PE, referred to as ‘bedroom submissives’  See…I always thought for a D/s relationship to BE at all…there HAD to be a Power Exchange; clearly that is not the case for these folks.  But it sure does seem to be the case that their brand of D/s involves more casual partners and it seems to be more about kinky sex…IMHO…than much else.  <shrugs> 
 
Again…I’m back to that ‘higher protocol’ thingy.  Is that it…what I prefer; High Protocol?  I dunno…but I’ve never been one for snotty remarks and flip comebacks anyway…and in D/s it just seems wayyyyyy inappropriate to me.  To ME.
 
You’re right too; with regard to how lucky one would be to find partners with that level of compatibility!  Still…why they wanna call it D/s is beyond me; I don’t understand it either………….hence the OP.  Thank you for your post, Maam! 
 
PS... Can I call you Ms P?  One of these days I'm gonna butcher your name and be wayyyyyyyyy embarrased! 

(in reply to Proprietrix)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 6:50:30 PM   
Tamerofwild1s


Posts: 1765
Joined: 12/5/2004
Status: offline 		*comes tootling in with my hammer in toe* .. I think Level and Proprietex bot hit it on the head . there are many facets in this lifestyle ... but for a submissive to blantently say no . or disreguard the Dom/mes needs or wants is taking away from the dynamic of the relationship ... even for the bedroom submissive who are mainly in it for the kink and sexual side .. WHICH by the way has nothing wrong with it .... <dodges the arrows with Level> there still has to be some dynamic which clearly motivates them to submit and defiant behaviour don't make that motivation apparent and in such . I choose from MY opinions and beliefs to just move on and find someone who does in fact want to complete me

_____________________________

A building get torched. All that is left is ashes. I used to think that it is true about everything - family, friends, feelings - but now I know that sometimes if love proves real, and two people are meant to be together, nothing can keep them apart ~

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 6:50:58 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Hey Level… thank you!
 
Yes, that would be another thought I’ve had.  One of the reasons I’m not troubled with No’s is because I get to know those I submit to before I actually submit……even for a play date.  Yeah yeah yeah…I’m one of those submissives who choke at the word ‘slut’ too.    LOL   (moving right along) 
 
Someone once said I have a list fetish.  LMAO   Yup, I love the ones on Bondage…Alt’s ‘activities enjoyed’ is not so bad either.  I like to read what/how people respond to the choices there. <WEG> If I’m interested in someone…I often go try to find them on the other sites.  Dammit though, some people use different names everywhere they go!  <sigh>
 
But back to what you said:

“I think the process leading up to submission should be exhaustive. Know yourself, and know your potential dominant/submissive. Ask the hard questions, and be satisfied with the answers.”

I guess I’m pretty much the same way.  I KNOW my Dominant partner wouldn’t want me eating cow pies!  <urp>  So…just about everything else from that is a go!  But…when it’s not….and it sometimes won’t be, I realize that….then I’d handle it like TammyJo suggested:  I’d give the Dominant INFORMATION…not No’s.
 
MOO YMMV…yada yada yada; this is a FORUM

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 6:53:23 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I did not think you were flaming anyone nor trying to insult people, and I am very passionate about debate...smiles.

I am not intending to hijack this thread, and perhaps this topic needs a new thread of its own, but I really do not understand what 24-7 means and I have not seen it adequately defined for me. Some submissives and doms are highly structured, some aren't. I thought it was in the minds of those who do WIIWD. I will keep reading and thinking about these things as I discover my submissive nature. I think this was a valid thread Bearlee and I think you seem like a very nice person. I am sorry if my passionate responses got overly passionate...

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 7:00:39 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Nice post, cynthiamarie...thank you; and welcome to the boards! 
 
I have had similar experiences with boys I've topped...and handled it in much the same way you did.  Your mentioning that...and the different level of emotional level when you Dominate or Top was much food for thought.  I should remember that...as it is much the same for me.  I dunno why I didn't remember that...  <shakes head> 
 
Thanks again!

(in reply to cynthiamarie)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 7:03:52 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Juliaoceania…while you have always been passionate in your replies and strongly stated your opinions, you have been nothing but polite.  I was not referring to you, honestly.
 
beverly

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 7:07:09 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Hammer toe?  You gots a hammer toe, Phucker, Sir?    Well...I don't want one; even if it IS a mindf*ck.



please....................................................................................................thank you.

Sir

(in reply to Tamerofwild1s)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: Saying 'No!' - 6/17/2006 7:11:14 PM   
Bearlee


Posts: 2311
Joined: 10/25/2004
From: South Central CO
Status: offline 		Bedroom submissive and Pleasure Top…  I wonder why they are taken as such slurs.  Cynthiamarie made me realize that when I Top…I’m pretty much of that ilk; I’m NO Domme, that’s for sure.
 
I have fun, though; but I’m not at all sure it’s D/s….. BDSM yes, but I dunno about D/s.
 
Maybe we’ll get more posts…  

(in reply to Bearlee)
Profile   Post #: 120
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