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RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:10:41 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CharmingKitty


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Yep, hopeless idealist here, guilty as charged.

Who's ideals?


Perceptive question...

Kink can be a way of discovering and shedding social norms, of embracing a broader sense of self, of living a more authentic life...or not. Go to a kink educational event and you are bombarded with technical skills classes almost devoid of the emotional aspects.


(in reply to CharmingKitty)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:15:41 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Yep, what we need is more macreme and orgasm control for all. So we get America doing more shallow kinky sex with the same shitty relationship dynamics, the same narrow boxes of behaviour, etc.

Of course, a FEW of you have great relationships but kink as a social.phenominom has become about shallow surface crap, not a way of freeing peoples minds and as a path to deeper self knowledge.




That's because people are more shallow. More impatient. Built with the same mental capacity with less inclination to use it. Add in technology and you get people who are less able to relate and deal with other people. Bdsm has never been a panacea. Never will be. It can help if it's used right. But the fact is if you can use kink to have better relationships then you probably can do it without it as well. The traits that tend to work, tend to work regardless.

Once you open a thing up to a wide audience you lose any control over it. It will continue to branch out. Some you'll point to and say "see that's what I was talking about". And others will make you just shake our head. That's how things go.

_____________________________

Don't fight him. Embrace your inner asshole.

Tu fellas magnus penum meum...iterum

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Ego sum erus.

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:18:58 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Not to mention that some of us happen to enjoy shallow kinky sex. Even those of us with good, solid long lasting relationships.

I bake, sometimes I'll spend a week trying out recipes for the perfect macaroon.

But I'm still thrilled to buy a bag of M & Ms. There's room for all of it.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:20:02 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

And thank God it hasn't become tantra. I don't want to have to feel spiritual when I get tied up. That's about sex for us. It's extreme feelings and screaming happily.

I go to shul to fulfill my spiritual needs. If I have to change religions to get tied up, then I'll do without it. Thankfully Michael, you don't get to force that choice on me.

You used to be a lot happier. But neither here nor at fet have I seen you post anything positive in months. You want to see change? You won't get it by telling everyone else how much truer you are. Be the change you want to see, live your life so that others see something of value in it and seek to emulate it. I'm not seeing anything worthy of emulation in you these days. Have you been assessed for depression?


I didnt know you followed me so closely, but clearly not close enough if you havent seen any of the fun stuff. Organizing a floating munch to visit some of the amazing local chefs, sailing, and just amazement at finally being able to live in the bay area. I am working for an amazing startup and wont hit $250k next year but will definitely clear $150k. I am doing an event in Hawaii next year although I dont thonk I am going to bother presenting after that due to the reasons behind this thread.

So yeah, I find the SCENE depressing but I am having the time of my life. Hell, I have even lost 30lbs and will have lost another by the time I hit the beach in Hawaii next year.

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:22:07 PM   
Charade


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/8/2012
Status: offline 		BDSM is what you make of it. Some will see it as some deep fullfilling journey, others a cheap thrill; so what of it?

Some people view the whole lifestyle with particular set of rules and protocols because it suited them; that's their game and if you're on board with that all the power to you. But not everyone has to jump on board with the self imposed elite and should be able to run off with their own friends, with their own toys, and make their own little private club without being crucified by individuals of a subculture that should be embracing alternative lifestyles and be glad that they no longer have to play in shady corners in back street clubs.

But, as it's been pointed out in plenty of posts, society is degrading overall. You're upset about that, which is perfectly understandable - it's a said state of affairs.

People have come along and pissed in your pool while you're trying to have a party - I'd have a cry too. But have some dignity; splashing this across public boards, insulting and criticising others because they don't participate in the same game as you or share your narrow minded views, makes you look like an ass. Particularly when you're basing your arguements on principles that require maturity, responsibility and insightfulness which your posts seem to lack, to a wide and ever increasing audience.

There are tools in all facets of society. Don't become one.

(in reply to CharmingKitty)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:25:07 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		No...i wasnt insulting peoples relationships, this was, or at least my goal was,a meta discussion of the direction of the larger public scene, not a referendum on Joe CM's relationship.

(in reply to Charade)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:28:33 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: kiwisub12

Is true - you can be the gold nugget at the core of crap. The bit of truth in all legends. The white knight on the white horse with the white hat.

actually , i feel sorry for people who look at the internet and think that is all there is to what we do. What a shame.


Me too, but kink.com is a real world place, BOLD, is a real world event, NCSF, is a real world org, and the,issues I am speaking to ARE about the real world, bdsm is fast becomeing big.money.. As for white knight, think more don quixote.


SimplyMichael - you sound like the oldies talking about "the good old days". Nothing goes backwards. The only thing we can do is influence how and in what direction forward is.
My sweetie and i are inviting someone new to bdsm to meet Friday, because she wants to talk and know more about what we do. We aren't experts by anyones measure, but we are willing to put ourselves out there.
Individuals that do what they can to be true to the ideal that they hold will make the difference. It won't hit everyone, but the ones that it does hit will know.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:32:27 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		We all participate in creating a culture, the tone here is very different than fet. You post here why?

Mention punishment dynamic on fet and a giant echo chamber will support you but here? Not so much. Same goes for personal responsibility, people here are quick to.point out a person's role in the results they experience, on fet you are likely to be shouted down as "victim blaming"

My point was that those differences are important but more and more are being.lost on the larger stage.

I think its sad, clearly I am a bit alone in that.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:39:19 PM   
theRose4U


Posts: 3403
Joined: 8/22/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

I bake, sometimes I'll spend a week trying out recipes for the perfect macaroon.

But I'm still thrilled to buy a bag of M & Ms. There's room for all of it.

If you come up with a great flourless one please send it my way...sucker for macaroons!!

_____________________________

Finding a good sub is like sifting through trail mix. You find a few fruits, a lotta nuts and have to sift to get to the sweet and special ones
drama llama

(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:43:53 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

(in reply to theRose4U)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:55:13 PM   
CharmingKitty


Posts: 103
Joined: 6/2/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


quote:

ORIGINAL: CharmingKitty


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Yep, hopeless idealist here, guilty as charged.

Who's ideals?


Perceptive question...

Kink can be a way of discovering and shedding social norms, of embracing a broader sense of self, of living a more authentic life...or not. Go to a kink educational event and you are bombarded with technical skills classes almost devoid of the emotional aspects.



Well, I think it's quite possible this could be because it's a tad difficult to teach someone "emotional aspects".
However, giving someone the tools with which to have an emotional experience is a little easier.

That being said I am interested in how you suggest going about teaching "authenticity" and "embracing a broader sense of self".

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 3:57:28 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

There was a point in time where BDSM could have become a Westen version of Tantra and brought improvements to relationships, communication, consent, and personal freedom.


I never thought I would see the day when you expected us to believe you would go all Castle Realm on us. Go sell that romantiDom crap to someone that doesn't own the gear you crafted or has read your prior posts.

quote:

....Sadly, it has lost its way and become no better than porn, a sad and tawdry refection of the lowest common denomonator. It celebrates young women and photos utterly divorced from deep connection and inner exploration and growth.


I don't know about you but the first time I went to public leather bars and events was in the early 70s. The very first scene I saw was a leathermen scene with a boy tied to the cross. His Master pierced his ball sack with a sharp pointed steel tube the size of a drinking straw and inflated his balls. My first question was, "where can I get one of those" . . . the only spiritual value was it helped me find myself.

I remember Hellfire in NYC and Hellfire West. Entering the club I stepped around the guy masturbating just inside in the entrance who was watching waterboarding porn. Then I wiped the unknown goo off the counter so I could sit down. The stools were so scary, some of the gang refused to sit. When I went to the bathroom, I had to fight for my own dick so I could pee instead of get a blowjob from the willing "slaves" crawling the urine soaked floors.

Tawdry . . . seriously, things have gotten worse? Please tell me where, I want to go see this and I'll buy you a drink when we get there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Yep, hopeless idealist here, guilty as charged. I was going to reply to Lady Pact but your post makes it more clear.

BOLD was a brilliant marketing move by some very cynical people. They currently charge for mentoring. However as educators they got lityle traction. So they carved off a very profitable market,segment,(fat,white male doms,who can afford to,try,and,buy,status) and created a large event where they were the presenters, thus owning,what they,call "het leather" and,its the equivelent,of a vanity press.

Now after 50 shades showed how profitable all this is, watch,kink.com start giving more cock sucking classes with aging,porn stars...which is what pushed me over the edge.


How is tawdry not spiritual? Tawdry base carnal animalistic BDSM is spiritual for me. I understand some come to BDSM for the kink, some have a leather heart and are more social . . . but I do not think one has expelled the other and that things are even more open, social and community spirited now than they ever were. I hate the tourists because they waste our time. We invest in educating someone in leather when it was all just some "tawdry" jerk off fantasy that drew them in and they will be gone when the first taste of real leather soaks in. However, as much as I will blame 50 Shades for the bane of fresh meat clogging the internet, I am pretty sure our leather hearts will long outlive this current wave of tourists as well as we survived all previous waves.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:00:09 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

I've read both of course, they weren't the best books but I am glad they were written. I also read the list in the OP of my sig link. Why do you ask?



ETA: Have you read MasterFireMaam's book?

< Message edited by ResidentSadist -- 12/6/2012 4:02:16 PM >

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:01:43 PM   
JeffBC


Posts: 5799
Joined: 2/12/2012
From: Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Sadly, it has lost its way and become no better than porn, a sad and tawdry refection of the lowest common denomonator. It celebrates young women and photos utterly divorced from deep connection and inner exploration and growth.

Gosh... this sounds a lot like something I might have said back when you and I met Michael. I don't feel that way any longer. Now I see it as "sexual liberation" which I see as entirely healthy. Of course, you only get out of something what you bring to it but for Carol and I it absolutely turned out to be:

"...improvements to relationships, communication, and personal freedom"

We only missed on "consent" and honestly that's only because "consent" like "limits" just isn't relevant in our relationship. But overall, as much as we never got "kinky" exactly and never quite fit into "the scene", I still count my interaction with BDSM to be entirely positive.


_____________________________

I'm a lover of "what is", not because I'm a spiritual person, but because it hurts when I argue with reality. -- Bryon Katie
"You're humbly arrogant" -- sunshinemiss
officially a member of the K Crowd

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:03:51 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I am a bit surprised at the vitriol there RS. And what does my.making kink toys have to do with this thread?

Its funny how personal some people are taking this.


(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:05:48 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

Nope-I wrote my own. The one that works for me, by me, with the one I'm with. Which, AFAIC, is all that matters
And really I've never given much of a damn about the larger stage, I'm kinda sociopathic that way.
What I care about is the same thing that I've cared about since day one, oh so many years ago, in those way back days before Al Gore even contemplated inventing the internet-I care about me and mine, and the rest of the world can pound sand for all I care.
I don't give a fuck about scenes (I mean why should I? Have you seen those people? Half of em still play Magic, at 40!), I could care less about what the local group is doing, I ain't into leather so I couldn't give a damn if they get watered down (And to be frank, most the leather folks I've met are stuck on themselves and spend the majority of the time I've heard em trying to say how they are right and everyone else is wrong-like any decent cult should-Sorry LP, just calling it as I've seen it), and whatever the hell a bondage film site is doing 1/2way across the country couldn't phase me less.
And how some newbie wannabe, thinking of becoming, internet wanker HNG interprets all that is their problem, not mine. No skin offa my nuts.
The lilone has a tummy ache-now that, that means everything to me. As well it should.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:08:01 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ResidentSadist

quote:

....Sadly, it has lost its way and become no better than porn, a sad and tawdry refection of the lowest common denomonator. It celebrates young women and photos utterly divorced from deep connection and inner exploration and growth.


I don't know about you but the first time I went to public leather bars and events was in the early 70s. The very first scene I saw was a leathermen scene with a boy tied to the cross. His Master pierced his ball sack with a sharp pointed steel tube the size of a drinking straw and inflated his balls. My first question was, "where can I get one of those" . . . the only spiritual value was it helped me find myself.

I remember Hellfire in NYC and Hellfire West. Entering the club I stepped around the guy masturbating just inside in the entrance who was watching waterboarding porn. Then I wiped the unknown goo off the counter so I could sit down. The stools were so scary, some of the gang refused to sit. When I went to the bathroom, I had to fight for my own dick so I could pee instead of get a blowjob from the willing "slaves" crawling the urine soaked floors.

Tawdry . . . seriously, things have gotten worse? Please tell me where, I want to go see this and I'll buy you a drink when we get there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Yep, hopeless idealist here, guilty as charged. I was going to reply to Lady Pact but your post makes it more clear.

BOLD was a brilliant marketing move by some very cynical people. They currently charge for mentoring. However as educators they got lityle traction. So they carved off a very profitable market,segment,(fat,white male doms,who can afford to,try,and,buy,status) and created a large event where they were the presenters, thus owning,what they,call "het leather" and,its the equivelent,of a vanity press.

Now after 50 shades showed how profitable all this is, watch,kink.com start giving more cock sucking classes with aging,porn stars...which is what pushed me over the edge.


How is tawdry not spiritual? Tawdry base carnal animalistic BDSM is spiritual for me. I understand some come to BDSM for the kink, some have a leather heart and are more social . . . but I do not think one has expelled the other and that things are even more open, social and community spirited now than they ever were. I hate the tourists because they waste our time. We invest in educating someone in leather when it was all just some "tawdry" jerk off fantasy that drew them in and they will be gone when the first taste of real leather soaks in. However, as much as I will blame 50 Shades for the bane of fresh meat clogging the internet, I am pretty sure our leather hearts will long outlive this current wave of tourists as well as we survived all previous waves.

Applauds.

_____________________________

"One of God's own prototypes. A high-powered mutant of some kind never even considered for mass production. Too weird to live, and too rare to die. "
HST

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:08:58 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		What does it matter if bdsm has lost its way as long as YOU haven't lost your way?

Does everyone else in the world run your life and decide for you? If so I feel sorry for you.


_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to FemmeD76)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:09:17 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
How many of you have attended a major kink convention? How many of you do kink education or work on projects that reach a wide audience. Look at what makes K&P on fet, every pic of a cite young chick giving head. The current effort to define consent being worked on by NCSF has almost no mention of personal responsibilty.

Are you seriously asking this question? Not that I'm unwilling to list a run down of every major event that I have attended or been a presenter at, but I don't really think you are looking to see anybody's bio here. As a matter of fact, this*** has been discussed more than once:

quote:


Kink can be a way of discovering and shedding social norms, of embracing a broader sense of self, of living a more authentic life...or not. Go to a kink educational event and you are bombarded with technical skills classes almost devoid of the emotional aspects.


I think you've mentioned that in My case a couple of times.

Truth be told, those are the classes that get higher attendance. Topping has a higher interest than Dominance. Do you not see the need to have them? Are you really not paying attention?

quote:

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

You're joking, right?




_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:14:28 PM   
littlewonder


Posts: 15659
Status: offline 		So if someone has nevrer attended an event or read a bdsm book, then they have ruined bdsm for you and the rest of the world and those people should somehow be reviled. OOOhhhh....I'm scared lol.

Michael, all your posts lately sound like you've become very bitter and jaded...bad relationships? Not making money at your seminars? No one showing up at them? So what? Do you make your living off of bdsm? I guess that's the only reason I could even see any reason whatsoever to be so angry about it all.

Can't you just have a one on one relationship or two or three or whatever it is you like, and just be happy with that?

I mean, lately your posts sound like the posts you hear from those involved in PETA.

ETA: Ok, after reading the rest of the thread now, I think it seems you are upset because you're not selling as many toys or having a packed room at your seminars

< Message edited by littlewonder -- 12/6/2012 4:23:55 PM >

_____________________________

Nothing has changed
Everything has changed

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 60
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