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RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:19:18 PM   
CharmingKitty


Posts: 103
Joined: 6/2/2012
Status: offline 		And here is what I am thinking, and I don't want to be rude because I do not know you.
This is the very first time I have seen you post. So let me tell you how you are coming across to me as a stranger from your writing on this thread.
It really seem like you put to much value on the marketable, or online aspects of things.
You are disillusioned with all these websites and associations.

Essentially it seems like you are upset the "self help" side of bdsm isn't being capitalized the same as the physical aspects.

(in reply to CharmingKitty)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:21:32 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
(And to be frank, most the leather folks I've met are stuck on themselves and spend the majority of the time I've heard em trying to say how they are right and everyone else is wrong-like any decent cult should-Sorry LP, just calling it as I've seen it), <snip>

For what it's worth, no problem with that, Kana. I tell everybody the same thing. If you meet Me and you still have the same opinion of leather folks as you did before we've met, then there's really nothing I can do to change it. If I'm different than the stereotype, then you must admit there is an exception to the rule.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to Kana)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 4:45:25 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kana
(And to be frank, most the leather folks I've met are stuck on themselves and spend the majority of the time I've heard em trying to say how they are right and everyone else is wrong-like any decent cult should-Sorry LP, just calling it as I've seen it), <snip>

For what it's worth, no problem with that, Kana. I tell everybody the same thing. If you meet Me and you still have the same opinion of leather folks as you did before we've met, then there's really nothing I can do to change it. If I'm different than the stereotype, then you must admit there is an exception to the rule.


Oh, I'm not making any rule at all, and I already know that all leather folk aren't like that-that's why I put in the addendum-because I like and respect ya, LP.
I'm just saying that it's my general experience, and I'm also openminded enough to recognize that I've only met a small portion of the leather population and that its entirely possible I've had the bad luck to just meet the wingnuts.
Meanwhile, I don't wanna detract from the general thread-let's just call this a sidebar :-)

_____________________________

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(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:04:34 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
I am a bit surprised at the vitriol there RS. And what does my.making kink toys have to do with this thread?

Its funny how personal some people are taking this.


vitriol . . . maybe a hint. But I offered to buy the drinks! I reject your attempt to sell yourself as just a leather hearted spiritual romantiDom. Besides your previous posts, you craftsmanship tells on you. That is what your professional grade torture gear (not kink toys) has to do with this.

Dude, if you made manacles with pink hearts on them, maybe I could buy all that lamenting spiritual crap and believe you have gone all squishy. However, your serpentine curved birdseye maple paddle is a nasty, evil bit of work. It is not soft, romantic, spiritual, loving or fluffy. It is very base and painfully in any application unless you lube it up and fuck someone with the handle. So the only "spiritual connection" this paddle you crafted can provide is to connect a sadist to a masochist and corporal punishment . . . which is all tawdry stuff. Tawdry meaning "low and mean; base" not "gaudy; showy and cheap".

I love my girl and I connect with her on a BDSM level every day. We take time for a BDSM ritual spanking. It is erotic and connects us to each other spiritually and reinforces our roles and position in the relationship. I use a lot of different things during this ritual connection . . . your paddle is NOT on the list of preferred items for these spiritual leather moments. However, your paddle is at the top of the list when I want to get nasty and dish out some serious pain. 40 years Micheal, I been slinging leather and swinging paddles for over 40 years . . . that paddle is one very nasty piece of work.

Now, I confess that you paddle has had a spiritual effect at times. A religious spiritual effect that is. I often hear a slave pray to God when they see me coming with your paddle in my hand. But the point is I believe it takes a base and tawdry mind with intimate carnal sadistic knowledge to design a nasty ass serpentine hardwood paddle like that. I have trouble believing you would go all romantiDom on us about the spiritual connection and discount the other tawdry side of the coin.

As for the rest, I empathized with your disdain about the effects 50 Shades of Gray is having.

_____________________________

-=BDSM Book List=- Reading is Fundamental !!!
I give good thread.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:23:27 PM   
RedMagic1


Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

I'll play. I've read neither one. I have, however, read about 20 pages of Master Fire's household manual -- enough to determine that I didn't want to buy it yet.

I own one shibari book, and I've studied martial arts, massage, and CPR. I've taken management training courses and attended demos in dungeons. I've read psychological, sociological and anthropological literature on social and sexual deviance. However, I have read very little on Resident Sadist's book list.

Look. Do you want to see the future of BDSM? I will show it to you. It is relationships that are an alloy of online and real life interactions. There is already a cyber Kiss Transmission Device http://gotvirtual.net/community/threads/cyber-kissing-machine.1484/ , a Long Distance Hug Shirt http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/02/12/long-distance-relationshi_n_1271210.html , and many other devices in prorotype or scheduled to hit market. Within 20 years, a "cam session" will look nothing like how it does today.

Will people who use those cyber devices be missing out on what it's like to caress someone in person every single day? Yes, but on the other hand, just as is already happening with internet porn, many people will be trained to prefer the cyber contact over the real-life contact. So in that sense, cyber for them will be "better."

You might dislike it, and say it's not for you, but trying to stop it is like trying to stop the rise of phone sex in the 1970s.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:26:03 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		RS,

You are confusing my PERSONAL preferences and inclinations in my own relationship.with what I WISH the larger public kink scene presented. Few here are even part of the bdsm world I am speaking of. Instead of something that embraces more than just three handed upside down florentine flogging, it also spoke to breaking.paradymes instead of embracing them.

Its is funny though that people think this is about me being fluffy, online or worried about what other people think, lol!

(in reply to ResidentSadist)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:34:53 PM   
kalikshama


Posts: 14805
Joined: 8/8/2010
Status: offline
quote:

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

I own and have read both, and more.

quote:

How many of you have attended a major kink convention?

Not sure how you define major but I am a NELA member and have gone to many of their New England events. When I lived in Florida, I always went to the Fetish School workshops at the Fetish Factory's Memorial Day Weekend extravaganzas. (When I was in NY, I lived in an ashram and put BDSM on the back burner.)

quote:

The current effort to define consent being worked on by NCSF has almost no mention of personal responsibilty.

Do you have a link for this discussion? I too have noticed lack of personal responsibility in some consent conversations.



< Message edited by kalikshama -- 12/6/2012 5:38:50 PM >

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:36:59 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

ETA: Ok, after reading the rest of the thread now, I think it seems you are upset because you're not selling as many toys or having a packed room at your seminars


Wrong on all accounts. Selling toys was a labor of love and I stopped because I now live on a sailboat. I am still asked to teach but keep turning down offers cause my heart isnt in it. I still.post here because there ARE people with relationships and perspectives I value. And...this place has always been favored by iconoclasts who reject the larger kink scene.

(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 5:50:51 PM   
CynthiaWVirginia


Posts: 1915
Joined: 2/28/2010
From: West Virginia, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?

Yes to both, but it's been several years and I'd need to refresh my memory to know what you are referring to. Also, I may read other people's opinions and what works for them...and still retain my own opinions and my own way of doing things.

I'll bump them up on my list of books to read over again, there in the book case attached to the head of my bed. I'll have to do it quickly, while I'm in between catching up on old Star Trek TNG books and before the ones on candle making and stuff arrive in the mail.

If there was a chapter or two you wanted to point out, just mention it here and I'll read them tonight and be better prepared for a discussion about it.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 6:06:12 PM   
Kaliko


Posts: 3381
Joined: 9/25/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

Can't you just have a one on one relationship or two or three or whatever it is you like, and just be happy with that?

I mean, lately your posts sound like the posts you hear from those involved in PETA.



General reply, but using this as a springboard.

First of all, I was a member of PETA. :) And being vegan/vegetarian for a number of years, for what I felt to be meaningful reasons, yes..it bothered me when others portrayed vegetarians to be something other than who I was. I identified so strongly with my own values that I found it sorrowful that someone could think I was vegetarian for reasons other than the truthful ones, regardless of whether what they thought actually impacted my life at all or not. I think we all have a desire to be understood when something is important to us.

I think (?) perhaps what Michael is saying is something similar. He has his beliefs and reasons and saw the perception of and participation in BDSM headed in a certain direction. He finds, though, that over time it has been cheapened (in his view). And because it's important to him, the cheapening of it by others bothers him. As well it should. I say, if something is truly important to us, then yes, it will matter that others hold it in as high regard as we do, even if merely as a matter of respect for our own strongly felt opinions.

I don't know why it's difficult to understand that when something doesn't appear to mean to others what it means to us, that it would be upsetting. We share experiences...all of us...humanity. We don't live in isolation. We do care what others think, and we do care when we think others have taken something we loved and manipulated it into something else entirely. And then we watch them hold up to the world this bastardized version of something we hold dear and proclaim "Look what I do because I'm so progressive and sexually open!"...when really, it's just a fucking cock shot and they should just relax, already.



(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 7:04:53 PM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		I am totally confused.
BDSM had a golden age?
I know I did this wrong but there was never anything other than human interaction and relationships just like everyone else was doing only with a twist when I began at that age we are not supposed to mention here.
I didn't ever see perfection ...just a life well lived .
Kinda glad I didn't get intro'd into this stuff we do from the influence of the web when things were presented as ideal.

< Message edited by Missokyst -- 12/6/2012 7:12:08 PM >

_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 7:27:01 PM   
UnholyBear


Posts: 661
Joined: 10/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?



Read neither of those books. Though I fail to see how reading those 2 books would give me the knowledge I get from offline experiences?

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 72
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 9:47:31 PM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline 		Strange thread, this is.

My spirituality and enlightenment (so far) has come from therapy, Buddhist studies, some amazing books, family and friends, and a gazillion life experiences. I think it was said in Cynthia's thread - it's a people thing. People either lean toward some version of spirituality or they don't. And I'd venture to guess that those who do, are spiritually fulfilled by a broader focus.

I haven't read the books you mentioned, but I *have* read some life changing, amazing books which helped me change the way I look at the world and at myself. Truth is, I'm just not that interested in "BDSM" as a main focus. Not to disparage anyone who is; it's just not my personal thing. Between my relationship, my job, my family's medical issues, the circle of friends I enjoy, and all my personal interests, there just isn't a lot of time left over, and I don't feel like I'm missing anything.

I don't feel defensive by your words, I just don't relate to them. Perhaps because BDSM isn't a passion of mine like it is for you. My relationship is a passion of mine (one of several passions), and we happen to enjoy BDSM activities, but BDSM on its own...nah.

We've seen a lot of people complain about M/s being diluted, etc., and your posts kinda come across as one of those, but I just figure hey, if more people are getting their groove on and finding something they enjoy - then that's awesome. It might feel like there's this influx of people coming in who don't "get it" like you do, but yanno, you were probably one of those newcomers once, too. You can choose to educate, remain frustrated, or move on - Accept It, Change it, or Leave it.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to littlewonder)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 11:16:19 PM   
MissImmortalPain


Posts: 2440
Joined: 4/1/2011
Status: offline 		I might be wrong about saying this but I'm going to say it anyway. Every generation of "kids" looks at what has happned before them and every generation of  "kids" believe they will be the ones that change the world. It doesn't matter what genre, what field, what hobby they hold highter than others they still think theirs will be the one that changes everything. That would be a great thing if the simple fact of the matter is that in the end we all  do the same thing. We age. We get tired. We find out that all our great work wasn't so damn great after all. As a way to defend ourselves from the knowlege that we might have failed we then turn guilt toward others. We talk about why it is the fault of the masses rather than the individual when the individual is the only one that can do anything to change his, and only his, life.

Micheal, I have seen you post in the past and am willing to admit that I have before viewed you as someone enlightened. Lately though, to be honest, I often look at your posts and wonder if you are the same person I saw posting before.

_____________________________

It is always by way of pain that we arrive at pleasure.

We must all go through a right of passage,and it must be physical, it must be painful,and it must leave a mark.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 11:32:12 PM   
HucowMilkMaster3


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		I have watched since the early 70's as this way of life slowly changed into a "lifestyle." It no longer represents anything that it used to be... the pretenders and the swingers have changed it drastically to suit what they want... kink in their otherwise boring sex life. The kids read fantasy erotica thinking that it is real, and men and women that have little control within their lives use this as an excuse to have an illusion of control. It is like the western concepts of Tantra, or Tao... they read a couple of books and they think they are an expert, then they change it all around and put their "Liberal" spin on it and then write a book... which is total garbage from the actual concepts... It is the typical Liberal crap, they don't like to chang themselves to adapt to the real thing because they are to lazy... yes, I did say LAZY!!! They convience themselves that they know something without any real training... they just tag themselves as being a Domme or a Master when the realtiy is that they are pathetic pretenders with major self denial.

Yes, because of the HNG Liberals and the pretenders combined with the internet and the self centered attitudes of this current western society, BDSM is nothing as to what it used to be and is a shameful shadow of its former self when it was not so main stream. The is not respect, there is not earning a title, there is no application into a house, in fact there is very few houses and most of those are nothing more than kink swinger play houses or groups. The community is a bigger joke, something to prade around showing off like cocks at a country show. It is shameful how the people in the so called community behave... back stabbing, pretending, delusing and lying.

then flaming....

(in reply to MissImmortalPain)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/6/2012 11:33:46 PM   
HucowMilkMaster3


Posts: 2
Joined: 9/11/2012
Status: offline 		One last thing, you can tell these people by the thousands of posts that they put out... they have no life, just endless intellectual crap posted pretending to be something they are not and calling themselves something with a title that was NEVER EARNED beyond their fantasies.

(in reply to HucowMilkMaster3)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 12:49:15 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There was a point in time where BDSM could have become a Westen version of Tantra and brought improvements to relationships, communication, consent, and personal freedom.


Meh. I think this is bullshit. When was this point?

Who wanted it to become "a Western version of Tantra", who says that such a thing would have brought the improvements that you describe?

quote:


Sadly, it has lost its way and become no better than porn, a sad and tawdry refection of the lowest common denomonator. It celebrates young women and photos utterly divorced from deep connection and inner exploration and growth.


Meh * 2. When you say "lost its way" you really mean "hasn't gone the way you wanted it to go".

It's not lost its way, it's evolving just as it has done forever.

Really.... there are so many ways that I can establish a deep connection, conduct inner exploration and grow.... and while I'm doing that I like to spank chicks once in a while.

For Pete's sake.

[ED for the one typo I spotted]

< Message edited by crazyml -- 12/7/2012 1:00:03 AM >

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Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 12:56:51 AM   
crazyml


Posts: 5568
Joined: 7/3/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I am curious how many of you have ever read either of The Topping Book or The Bottoming Book?


I haven't.

Oh fuck... is it a requirement?

Should I go and see all the people I've had kinky relationships and make some kind of formal apology?

Oh... god... Am I an "unlicensed Dom"

oops.

_____________________________

Remember.... There's always somewhere on the planet where it's jackass o'clock.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 1:24:00 AM   
GreedyTop


Posts: 52100
Joined: 5/2/2007
From: Savannah, GA
Status: offline 		c'mere, ML, I'll be happy to administer your licensing exam!!  *grin*

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(in reply to crazyml)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 1:59:09 AM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline 		I gotta read a book to do this? I read O, that was enough to get my imagination going, although I think Anais Nin introduced me to soe of the more subtle psychological aspects of the thing, but I'm pretty sure the idea was in my head long before that.

But as for young girls and meaningless sex? I think what you're you're talking about here is called "guys", and it's nothing new - BDSM is popular, so there are more guys doing what guys have always done, which is to try and have sex with as many young girls as possible, they're just calling it BDSM, but but it's just the same old bird-dogging bitches game the guys have been doing since there were guys.

Not only is it nothing new, it will never change, it's natural selection: as long as some percentage of these guys are successful, the trait or traits are passed on, and we're looking at more than a few million years of accumulation here, in fact it' s not even a human trait specifically, it's an animal trait in general, i.e., they are essentially organisms at the peak of their fertile phase doing what organisms at the peak of their fertile phase do.

i.e., it has nothing to do with BDSM, and everything to do with guys.

Does it water it down a bit as a "social movement", or whatever the hell it is? Sure, maybe, but PE is, and always will be, a highly individual relationship dynamic between two people, which may or may not have any damn thing to do with what anybody else is doing.

And really, that's the only notion that need to be reiterated: it's not an institution, it's just a thang.

< Message edited by xssve -- 12/7/2012 2:07:21 AM >

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(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 80
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