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RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 9:09:08 AM   
Missokyst


Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
Status: offline 		2 brilliant and insightful posts in a row.
Change is inevidible.
quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

Nothing stands still and so if you don't keep moving with them you just get left behind, jaded and unhappy.
We don't have to and shouldn't accept low standards and ethics but whether we accept them or not isn't going to make them go away. Don't be so intent on what others are doing wrong because it really shouldn't affect you. My only advice here is to try concentrating on you're own enjoyment.



_____________________________

pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


(in reply to MariaB)
Profile   Post #: 101
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 9:15:09 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		No, we didn't drop out. We simply limit our attention to those things in the scene that are part of the Noise.

My point is that you seem to have this impression that you are responsible for the thoughts, beliefs, and actions of others not in your control. You don't. Do your thing, sing your song as far out as you can, but realize that it won't reach everyone, nor will everyone who hears it heed or agree with your message.

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 102
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 9:27:40 AM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		Define "better." Please define it. It sounds like you want it more exclusive. It sounds like you want people to have to filter through some hierarchy of strangers to be allowed to be who they are. It sounds like you want others to be kept out for the sake of some kind of subcultural purity. It sounds like you don't want progress. While we can agree that progress does not necessarily equate to positive change, I doubt we agree on much else.

I live in a time in this culture that I have access to safe environments to meet and interact with new people. In my opinion, OP, it was the old days that were guilty of secret decoder ring/handshake nonsense. I couldn't just come in off the street, dressed decently, with or without a guest, and simply attend a munch, class, or club. Yet that's exactly what I have had to luxury to do now. While you bemoan how the influx of people who make the scene dangerous because of their lack of resume, I would argue that it is a much safer thing to have new people screwing up around people that can yank a knot in their chain immediately and in no uncertain terms rather than doing their experimenting in isolation leading to tragedy. I would argue also that ten years of background years ago is now being accomplished in a far shorter time period. There is more access than ever before and there is more acceptance to allow people to explore without shame at earlier ages and at accelerated pace. It's the difference of having one or two copies being handed down and circulating to being able order a copy right to your door through Amazon or downloading it directly to your IPad. All that time spent finding someone with a copy of whatever book and then to be next in line to get to read it is now spent reading, studying, and moving on to the next thing.

I also think that bringing down the walls of access and opening this world up to more people not only means we are gaining an acceptance that is long past due, but that it is requiring people to step up to the plate even more in areas of relationship skills, integrity, and personal responsibility. There's no place to point the finger anymore. The head of the house or the management of this club or the leadership of this munch didn't protect me! Boo hoo! Why were you trusting a bunch of strangers with unknown motives with your safety and well being in the first place again? This presenter said to do it this way and I did and injured my partner. Did you do ANY of your own research? Did you ask a single question of your partner like medical conditions, medications, allergies? Who's fault is it again? This is going to produce growing pains. There will be an increase in accidents and bad situations for some time until people get out of the mindset that they can depend solely upon other people for their safety and well being.

For someone who wants people to have better relationships and more personal responsibility, it seems you are looking at this from the wrong end of the lens, OP. The fact that there are fewer barriers to exploring this way of life is placing the onus on those coming in to be informed, make their own decisions, and accept the consequences of their actions like never before. This seems like madness to me. Railing against the very natural evolution that your own hopes would ultimately accomplish? I'm sorry. I don't get it.

SD

< Message edited by SacredDepravity -- 12/7/2012 10:02:56 AM >

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 103
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 10:02:49 AM   
NuevaVida


Posts: 6707
Joined: 8/5/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

LadyPact

Its SO funny how many are attacking me for supposedly worshiping "the old days" and or "leather". You KNOW I dont put leather on a pedestal! However, that isnt the same as not respecting it, did you read MrEasy (Patrick Mulhaneys) piece on leather, if not, you should. So, yes, anyone who claims to have traits like integrity or honerbased on.being "leather" I am going to laugh, it not the label, its the actions that allow
one to claim those things.

The host of Leather & Leis used to post here on CM many years ago and we have known each other for a long time. If you look at their schedule, I am actually teaching a bunch of classes. They chose them because I do talk about energy, connection, and relationships. I thought it rather tragic that I stood out for that reason. I am terrified my classes will not be good enough. Always a fear when you teach somewhere new, you feel like a big fish (competent NOT vip) but you never know the size of your pond so speak. But that event is tiny and way outside the mainstream.

Fires book IS part of the problem but lets not derail the thread with that.





Speaking to the bolded part....

Energy, connection, and relationships are some of what I'm passionate about. Any time I've mentioned being spiritual on these boards, I've had a flurry of negative responses. Awhile back during the Fab Four brigade, I made a comment about being a spiritual being and the next thing I knew, several pages of posts contained mockery, downright insults, and all sorts of other flak, as people incorrectly interpreted that I said BDSM was spiritual for me (which I didn't, and it's not).

I do recall years ago, when I was my own crazy version of fucked up, I was starting to explore energy and connection in relationships and you, Dear Michael, gave me a massive dose of flak for my "new agedness". That's why this particular post really stood out to me. Hey what can I say - welcome to the dark side!

So we all evolve. We all find what moves us from different places. I think Nakhla was spot on in saying all subcultures go through this sort of thing because guess what - - We're all just people, doing our thing. There is no wizard. There is no Guru on a pedestal. There are just common, every day people, getting by in life - some who give us great insight, some we just say "Well bless your heart" to. What I'm seeing in your posts here is that you were disillusioned, thinking there was a different level of greatness going on, only to find that's not really the case.

I'm guessing when you first started out, you were also characterized by one of those "newbies diluting things for the rest of us." But we grow, and we change, and the river winds its way creating new paths, and it's all ok.

Mind you, I'm not entrenched in any local scene, by my own choice, but what I'm speaking of can apply to any scene, be it BDSM, quilt-making, dance, fishing, etc. When I started biking you should hear some of the comments said about all these new cyclists clogging up the trails and ruining it for the seasoned folks. A few years later, I was making the same gripes...go figure.

_____________________________

Live Simply. Love Generously. Care Deeply. Speak Kindly.



(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 104
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 10:49:00 AM   
Torture4her


Posts: 1
Joined: 12/13/2005
Status: offline 		I agree that spiritually deep relatinships make bdsm work at it's best
But the urgent need to find any partner who will do your kink to CONCLUSION
has formed the path for most who don't know better!!

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 105
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:16:10 AM   
SeekingTrinity


Posts: 1834
Joined: 5/29/2012
From: The 'burbs of Portland, OR
Status: offline 		FRing it...

First of all, LOVED what you said, Nakhla! Spot on and thoroughly enjoyed reading what you had to say.

Secondly, for Hucowmaster3...be careful not to get too full of yourself. Ive heard that the clean-up after a human explodes can be quite extensive.

I guess I can understand in a way what you are saying to a point, Michael. It does seem quite a bit different nowadays than it did back in the day. But someone else here said that as something becomes more mainstream, control over it is lost. Unfortunately none of us can really stop the whole phenomenon of "sex sells." You cant stop the boulder once it starts rolling down the mountainside. All you can do is keep doing what you do and creating another path for people to follow should they want to get out of the way of the boulder. Not everyone will follow, but some will. Its a matter of perspective. Yeah, you can dwell on 50 Shades, the BDSM websites, and everything else that has sprung up ruining "the way things used to be." Or you can choose to look at it differently. For every 50 Shades tool who reads the book and declares themselves DOMINANT (capitals for added sarcasm), there is also a new person who comes in with the same ideals and wide-eyed optimism that you had the day you stepped on the scene yourself.

You want to leave the scene better than when you found it? Thats your chance. Foster the wide-eyed optimist. If you only focus on whats wrong, you dont always see whats right. Bemoaning the past isnt going to help make your corner of the scene better. All you can do is keep doing what you do and realize that while you will not reach 100% of the people who come in and they wont get it, there is a subset of the ones who came in too who will get it. They will be inspired to learn and to grow and to find their way if there are people who are there to show them. And that is how you leave things a little better than you find them. You will not reach everyone nor will everyone listen, but there is going to be a few souls out there in the crowd who are going to hear you.

(in reply to Torture4her)
Profile   Post #: 106
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:32:45 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

No, we didn't drop out. We simply limit our attention to those things in the scene that are part of the Noise.

My point is that you seem to have this impression that you are responsible for the thoughts, beliefs, and actions of others not in your control. You don't. Do your thing, sing your song as far out as you can, but realize that it won't reach everyone, nor will everyone who hears it heed or agree with your message.


We are on very opposite sides of the coin. You see yourself as choosing to accept or not accept noise, in a sense of being a passive reciever. Nothing wrong with that. So, in that sense, I am not speaking to or about you.

But someone out there IS creating that noise, correct?

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 107
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:41:30 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael


But CM is a backwater in the larger kink scene. The things people here mock, certifications, pay for training, asinine books, self important blowhards, mentors for hire, clubs with secret decoder rings ARE EXACTLY WHAT I AM RAILING AGAINST...LOL! That is what the scene is becoming.

[/unquote]

Obviously my experiences are different than yours. Because what turned me off the public scene was seeing this in my mother's Old Guard friends when I was in my teens.

I see a lot more solid relationships now than I did then. Then it was all about casual sex and no emotional involvement. Raw, animalistic sex with people whose names you never knew.

Then came AIDS.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 108
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:44:29 AM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		I do not think that you could effectively argue that I need licensure to get my dick sucked, Crappy, I don't believe you are doing that.

Who licensed the licensees?  I've seen the licensed drivers on our roads......not sure we want to go there.............self-edification?  all for it, but........don't press it as the end all be all for those who don't have the OCD. 

Yanno, it wasn't that long ago, relavtively (and I always have been me) that I read my first BDSM book 'The Loving Dominant', by John Warren (Looie), who I am proud to call a more than casual friend, even without having met him in the flesh.....

And page after page I kept thinking with each sentence, 'Yup, fucked up exactly like that before, yup, fucked that up too'.

But I have never been so fuckin stupid as to load an enema bag full of wine and pour it in a girls ass..........not ever. (nor was he..but I have the larger point at work) 

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 12/7/2012 11:47:47 AM >

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 109
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:47:57 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		I give up, if you can read what I wrote and think.i am glorifying old guard, left guard, or right guarf, none of the rest will ever get.

The kink scene today is perfect and will never be better nor is there any room for improvement.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 110
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 11:51:02 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
We are on very opposite sides of the coin. You see yourself as choosing to accept or not accept noise, in a sense of being a passive reciever. Nothing wrong with that. So, in that sense, I am not speaking to or about you.

But someone out there IS creating that noise, correct?


Well yes, and I said as much. You cannot avoid it - anything humans involve themselves in will create conflict somewhere and involve egos and power brokers and all that gunk - but it's just so much Noise really.

There are still things going on in the BDSM community - at least in Colorado, and in my view - where the signal outstrips the noise. Those are the events, the people, the groups with whom we choose to engage.

You have a very powerful message about engaging spirit in relationship. It would be a shame if you chose to not deliver that message. Clearly you have to make the determination where you will go to deliver it.

You aren't going to be able to control the noise, but you can choose to spend your time and energy in those pursuits where the signal (in your perception) outstrips the noise.

If you try to control the noise, or frankly even rage against it - then it diminishes the power of your own signal and you become susceptible to bad feelings about things you really cannot control. One of the best things my Lady has taught me by her example is to not pick up things that do not originate in me or in "us". It has allowed us to see the noise, but not loose the signal in our own lives, and to simply pursue those things in our community where the noise does not outstrip the signal.


EDIT and ADDITION: The BDSM community may lose its way, but it's important that you not lose your way.


< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 12/7/2012 11:57:24 AM >

_____________________________

I am on a journey of authenticity and self.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 111
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 12:04:58 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		I've thought about this thread for a while before I put anything down.
I, too, have lamented the influx of seeming idiots that the internet era has brought into BDSM. I attended my first play party in 1981. To be allowed in the door, you had to be personally vouched for. You had to know people and let them get to know you in a social setting sometimes for months. You would then be kinda pulled aside and asked "A bunch of us are having a very private party Saturday. Wanna come?".
Fast forward 30 years. Any nipplehead can google BDSM, join FET and, in some cases, show up at a munch within 24 hours. Most play parties these days only require that you have attended a munch. 3 weeks later, you're invited into someone's house where a naked woman is tied to a cross being flogged. What stops the beginner from saying "Hey, lemme borrow that whip for a minute" It really opens the door for some idiots.
On the flip side, "the way we did it in old days" definitely excluded some very interesting people who would have made wonderful contributions to the group.

Do I have a solution? Unfortunately, no. Our local group tries to screen noobs and I try as a member to set a good example. that's all one person can do.

_____________________________

Kinkier than a cheap garden hose.

Whoever said "Religion is the opiate of the masses" never heard Right Wing talk radio.

Don't blame me, I voted for Gary Johnson.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 112
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 1:44:21 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		SimplyMichael - what would you want to see in the "scene"? What do you want that you are not getting right now?

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 113
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 1:52:12 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

There was a point in time where BDSM could have become a Westen version of Tantra and brought improvements to relationships, communication, consent, and personal freedom.

Sadly, it has lost its way and become no better than porn, a sad and tawdry refection of the lowest common denomonator. It celebrates young women and photos utterly divorced from deep connection and inner exploration and growth.


I am rather late to the party here and haven't skim the thread. But I can't say that I agree that BDSM ever had a chance to be some western version of tantra. I think there is a few that might of seen its potential and as such they are walking the path and do so successfully. But I think most never give it much thought and its just another think to do.

In my experience there is only a small percentage of society that seeks to find deeper meaning in themselves and life in general. For the most part people are like cattle. A few strike out in a direction and many follow. Watch the herd enough and you will see pockets of cattle here and there and stragglers everywhere. There really doesn't seem to be any reason to it or purpose of any depth.

I actually don't care how BDSM is seen or how people want it to evolve. I guess I am one of those stragglers going off in my own direction. Not looking behind me to see if anyone is following and not looking where others are so I might join them. No, I have a pretty good idea of what I am doing and what I want. If there is a few that want to walk with me all the better for me. But I don't want them to be with thinking I am going to bring them where the grass is greener and sweeter. I would prefer they just like who am and want to journey life with me.



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 114
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 2:23:23 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline 		The concern is over this not being spiritual for people? Or idiots picking up whips? Or the new kids playing in your sandbox? I can't tell anymore.

For those of us who do practice this as at least in part a spiritual practice, that side of it is deeply personal and not going to be discussed much in the public arena. I talk about it with a few close friends and that's about it. When I was actively with my former partner we did this thing and connected in ways that I don't want the grimy paws of others anywhere near to this day.

Idiots have always picked up the whip, it's just that now they are close enough to take the whip away and teach them on the spot. I guess that's just awful and major organ damage and people left in a dying heaps in cheap hotel rooms suited you better. So I don't have to be vetted anymore and could potentially be playing straight up within hours, days, or weeks. That's so bad? I should think the sooner someone can gain real life connections and experiences and be more fully who they are, the better. Sure there are going to be more accidents. It's like when a drug or medical procedure first goes over the counter or at home in nature. We could argue it should never happen, but the reality is that it did because it was a needed change for many who use it on a regular basis. I guess the docs had better get off their high horses and just teach the masses rather than bitch that they are constantly seeing people "doing it wrong".

Really, it's the last one I hear loud and clear, OP. All the new kids and toys got in your sandbox destroying your vision because they built their sandcastle where you had already decided the road should go. The world changes and rearranges all the time. Adapt or die. There is no reason your practices need to change nor is there any reason for others to need to follow you. There is no reason to stop trying to educate and guide, but it isn't your issue whether or not people choose to learn what you are offering them.

I have actually been reading your posts for the better part of 7 years now. It isn't that I don't respect you or what you have gained in knowledge and experience over your years. My issue is that, in trying to protect a way of life you hold dear, it seems that you are crushing it, stifling its growth and maturity. These terrible things are signs that what you have tried to accomplish is coming to fruition. Acceptance, tolerance, the open environment in which to learn safe and effective play and relational skills is upon us. You are too busy rubbing your shins to realize that you are getting taller.

SD

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 115
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 2:39:01 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

I would laugh if you told me you had integrity based simply because you identify as leather

Verses

I saw your actions had integrity, the fact you identify as leather wouldnt factor in.

Claiming an identity is not the same as being it nor does it mean you have the traits the label suggests.



I would hope it would be the second. It's been a while.

Like I said to Kana earlier, I love being the exception to the rule for the people who aren't terribly fond of leather people. It's what sets Me apart, in some ways. Not that I don't have My own version of asshole once in a while. Still, it's kind of funny when people say, "except for LP, she's cool". LOL.

Books are still a good thing. Most people laugh at that now but that's because everything is on the net or they have already been doing wiitwd so long that an introductory book is kind of insulting. The latter isn't the group of folks that those books are designed for. Would I still recommend "The Topping Book" or "The Bottoming Book" to somebody who is just starting out? Yeah, I would. I still honestly believe that a lot of people don't know how to negotiate a scene when they are first starting out and what they might get from asking a question on the net may or may not give them the tools that they need to successfully obtain their goals.
Even if that goal is just the space of a few hours.

What's with these threads lately, Michael? What came across your desk that is screwing up your world?


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 116
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 2:57:55 PM   
DrakSoul


Posts: 10
Joined: 12/5/2012
Status: offline 		Why has it lost its ways?
Most people on all sites have lost their ways this isnt just a bdsm thingie. People lie and cheat because they seek a fleeting thrill whilst utilizing the words genuine normal and honest. Many of these people are so nefariously deluded they base everything on this alter ego of pantaloons and apply it to other.

Sites adverts, even face book - that’s worst of em all, data mine a user information and show them the appropriate adverts spam of garbage – tis a form or brain washing part with your gold bullion – elf king guards mine at the bottom of my garden shhhh

or pro domes who contribute fuk all to anything but justify it by saying they offer humanity a service - you can pretty much justify anything if your mentul


(in reply to SimplyMichael)
Profile   Post #: 117
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 3:06:16 PM   
UnholyBear


Posts: 661
Joined: 10/19/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam

... Any nipplehead can google BDSM, join FET and, in some cases, show up at a munch within 24 hours. Most play parties these days only require that you have attended a munch. 3 weeks later, you're invited into someone's house where a naked woman is tied to a cross being flogged. What stops the beginner from saying "Hey, lemme borrow that whip for a minute" It really opens the door for some idiots.





And this is part and parcel of the realm of BDSM becoming more open and easily available to the masses. I mean, for as long as I can recall, there have been a large segment of kinky people who wanted, wished and lamented that they wanted BDSM to be more widely accepted but the general population. Well this issue of BDSM becoming "watered down," or less than what it used to be back when..... Yes ok, books like 50 Shades and it's ilk or a simple search for adult toys online will bring back thousands of hits. This is part of BDSM becoming more mainstream and at the same time is is damn well evolving. Point being is I would rather deal with the noobs and the idiots who think they know it all than being forced to slink around back alleys and sleazy bars to meet and play with others who have similar tastes like I do.



quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Its not sour grapes, I am simply jaded. Seeing behind the curtain, realizing the wizard is not only just a man,but one with really low standards of ethics and often little if any integrity. Its all about technique, technical skill, its like they are teaching performing seals as opposed to liberating minds.





Then maybe part of the problem is way in the beginning, you allowed yourself to place that wizard up on a pedestal in the first place?



(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 118
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 3:11:32 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DrakSoul
or pro domes who contribute fuk all to anything but justify it by saying they offer humanity a service - you can pretty much justify anything if your mentul
How about you go do some research to see just how much professionals have contributed to the kink community? If you don't know that already, it's you who doesn't know fuck all.



_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to DrakSoul)
Profile   Post #: 119
RE: BDSM has lost its way - 12/7/2012 3:15:56 PM   
SacredDepravity


Posts: 270
Joined: 8/6/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UnholyBear


And this is part and parcel of the realm of BDSM becoming more open and easily available to the masses. I mean, for as long as I can recall, there have been a large segment of kinky people who wanted, wished and lamented that they wanted BDSM to be more widely accepted but the general population. Well this issue of BDSM becoming "watered down," or less than what it used to be back when..... Yes ok, books like 50 Shades and it's ilk or a simple search for adult toys online will bring back thousands of hits. This is part of BDSM becoming more mainstream and at the same time is is damn well evolving. Point being is I would rather deal with the noobs and the idiots who think they know it all than being forced to slink around back alleys and sleazy bars to meet and play with others who have similar tastes like I do.



Amen!

And this from a person who DID NOT have to go through that thanks to all the hard work of people just like the OP and UnholyBear. I am grateful for this.

SD

(in reply to UnholyBear)
Profile   Post #: 120
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